Tainari88 wrote:@JohnRawls how does a nation that had apartheid for hundreds of years and excluded the majority of a nation for years and used violence to stay in power then can say that they are the example the ANC can follow? No, they can't. People need to own the truth with their own story with all of its complexity. They don't do it. YOU don't do it either John Rawls. You keep denying that the USA has fucking been violent and racist with Puerto Rico, with Guatemala, with Honduras, with the DR, with Panama, etc. It is reality.
Acknowlede that shit NOW. And then there can be moving on and dealing with the defect of corrupt and incompetent shit. Because people are not going to move on while the powerful group benefiting from colonialism and shit stay in denial mode and keeps saying we civilized you savages, we brought enlightenment and freedom and justice and the American way....no they did not, they brought lack of voting rights, massacres, bombs, and cancer and pollution and poverty and desperation and loss of our rights. Once they admit that truth then all can be fixed. While they are in denial it is like a fucking Alcoholic with ten bottles of vodka hidden all over the house and when the family says you got a drinking problem the drunk person says, no I do not. I do not have a drinking problem. I have never drunk from that vodka bottle. They deny fucking reality. Why? because if they admit the problem they got? They have TO TAKE ACTION to change. And since they are unwilling to change because they are attached to their money or their power? They won't do it. Meanwhile, the drinking is causing liver damage and if they don't stop they will die of it. The same as racism and discrimination and imperial violence. They overspend on wars, cops, bribery and corruption and they violate their own RULES. For what? GREED and lack of respect for the rights of other nations, people and land. And it all has serious consequences John Rawls!, and say it. Just say it!! We benefited from your exploitation and by keeping you under the boot for centuries. We were wrong. You were equal human beings with dreams and aspirations and because of greed and ignorance and violence and mistakes you were denied rights. Acknowledge that shit.
That needs to happen with Russia vs Ukraine and every other nation who has been through invasions, trauma and racism and shit....got to acknowledge that FIRST. Then you can sit down and move on and once all people truly accept that the non white people got oppressed, and how that oppression also damaged psychologically the WHITE people too....you can finally move on to reconciliation.
I hate the way you deny the US role and never acknowledge the horror of what they have done to us!
The US is an Empire. Russia is an Empire or has been empire. France, the Netherlands, England, Belgium and the list goes on. What happens to those fucking oppressive Empires? They fall and they then got to deal with the ANGER and HATRED they have bred with their violent, exploitative and racist SHIT. Devil loving behavior they got.
The US gov't policies with Black people for years was TERRIBLE. They got pressure done on them and they had to change. So did South Africa and every other fucked up Empire.
You John, are so skewed in favor of the US empire. WHY? It is the same behavior. Humans are humans. You think the white South Africans are worse than the white Southern KKK racists? They are not. They actually are less violent. Because most of the Afrikaaners really believed in their shitty narrative about allowing the Blacks to vote. It never occurred to them why they were denying the Black South Africans and the coloured South Africans the vote?
Because they were afraid of sharing POWER with them. Simple as that. Scared shitless of losing POWER. Just say that shit and get it over with!
First of all, wow didn't expect you to go overboard. I will clarify to make it simpler: THE APARTHAID WAS NOT A GOOD SYSTEM AND IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE UNDER ANY CONDITION EVEN IF IT MIGHT HAVE HAD SOME GOOD ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES.
Now that I have clarified it then lets continue. I hope this settles the misunderstanding that you might have had with my statement. I didn't defend apartheid. The reason why I mentioned it is because currently it is a fact that SA needs to deal with that it existed. And this is one of the cases where I do agree with you that historic economic exploitation did lead to the whole situation actually since it ended relatively recently. Most forget that it ended in the 90s which 20-25 years ago basically. This explotation system is the cause why a lot of the black South Africans are under educated, have worse economic conditions and so on.
The other reason why it is relevant is because the succeeding ANC abuses the legacy of the apartheid to hide its incompetence and corruption. Right now, for example, there is a problem with electricity and their Eskom utility provider which was basically destroyed by corruption, political mismanagement, policy and state service compliance with corruption and so on. You can watch the latest interview that the leaving CEO did who tried to fix it but couldn't and that is descriptive of the most problems in SA.
Your questions was in regards to white south africans and black south africans coming together. Well, it is unlikely due to the following factors:
1) Apartheid is close in everyones memory.
2) ANC is using apartheid to blame the mistakes that were done under ANC rule after apartheid on the white south africans. It is not a hard to understand concept as a political strategy.
3) Economic situation is sadly deteriorating for both blacks and whites due to the current global and local situation. It kinda piles up be it covid or current energy problems and so on...
I wish I could give a good answer here of "happily ever after" but I just don't see it. Not any time soon probably.
@Pants-of-dog
Most of the things said on the internet about the problem is bullshit. Like farmers getting killed or white people getting hunted, this is just stupid far right American take on it. It does happen from time to time I suppose but it is not that endemic as one might make it sound and most of those deaths are related to general crime or robbery. SA is not a very safe place after all nowadays. So that is the bullshit part out of the way.
The non-bullshit part is that ANC is stuck somewhere 30 years behind ideologically somewhere between a capitalist mindset with communist ideas embedded in between which is sort of weird. Once again, It is hard to comment on this and a local would be much better but this is how one of my SA friends described it. As for blaming the white folks, sure:
Here is Malema, which is an important EFF politician both in regards to ANC and EFF now. There is plenty of his statements over the years and his folks overall. Youtube and google will show plenty.
There are others like Ramaphosa for example who is more directly ANC and important:
White South Africans, mainly those with power in their hands, must realise that particularly young black people are becoming increasingly angry about their "lackadaisical" attitude, President Cyril Ramaphosa said on Thursday evening, during a live interview on 702 and CapeTalk by Xolani Gwala.
In Ramaphosa's view, this can be seen as a justifiable anger, especially among young black professionals who find that, despite obtaining qualifications, they fail to gain access to the jobs market.
Full:
https://www.news24.com/fin24/ramaphosa- ... r-20181213Apartheid is not here anymore and I don't think that it is fair to blame white south africans after 25 years of your own rule for people not getting a job after education is done on whites for some reason. Mostly as I understand, the problem is on a local level though.