[Victoribus Spolia]

Was Kanye Right?

When he says that staying in slavery for 400 years was a choice, a form of psychological slavery, he was referring to the fact that if the slaves, with their numbers, had the will to rise up, they could have ended slavery themselves. Thus, choosing not to rebel, not to summon that inner-will, was in fact choosing to remain in slavery.

This poll is asking PoFo, was Kanye right in his assertion?

[One Degree]

Other. They could have overthrown their masters but they lacked the cultural standard which made this not a practical option for the individual.

[Victoribus Spolia]

They could have overthrown their masters but they lacked the cultural standard which made this a practical option for the individual.

So it took the white man to save them then? hmmmmm?

IF they lacked what it took of themselves (whether a cultural standard or whatever else); wouldn't this imply that they NEEDED someone who had something they lacked in order to free them from their bondage?

[Saeko]

I voted Yes because there in fact were a few slave revolts. Although they were quickly put down.

[One Degree]

So it took the white man to save them then? hmmmmm?

IF they lacked what it took of themselves (whether a cultural standard or whatever else); wouldn't this imply that they NEEDED someone who had something they lacked in order to free them from their bondage?

I edited my post so it reads “NOT a practical option.”
Absolutely, white people were essential in bringing this about. However at the same time, race is irrelevant. It was something humanity (yes, basically white humanity) had decided upon and it was going to happen. How it ‘actually’ happened is not really important.

[Victoribus Spolia]

I edited my post so it reads “NOT a practical option.”
Absolutely, white people were essential in bringing this about. However at the same time, race is irrelevant. It was something humanity (yes, basically white humanity) had decided upon and it was going to happen. How it ‘actually’ happened is not really important.

Wouldn't it "not being a practical option" actually imply that it was in fact a choice, just a difficult one?

[One Degree]

Wouldn't it "not being a practical option" actually imply that it was in fact a choice, just a difficult one?

Yes, but as I said before, the likelihood of the choice is determined by the community standard. If your community does not advocate total resistance then an individual has more trouble justifying it. It is only a workable alternative to military might if it is widely accepted. Gandhi and MLK had some success only because of the numbers who agreed with them. The more humans that agree, the more effective it becomes.

[Victoribus Spolia]

If your community does not advocate total resistance then an individual has more trouble justifying it. It is only a workable alternative to military might if it is widely accepted. Gandhi and MLK had some success only because of the numbers who agreed with them. The more humans that agree, the more effective it becomes.

By the question was not framed regarding individuals, but the collective (the community).

I did not ask if any particular slave had a choice or not, I asked whether or not slaves staying in slavery was a choice....

Thus, as a collective, did they choose to stay in slavery by choosing to not, as a group, rebel against their overlords?

Or did they lack any choice in the matter, thus implying that they needed the white man to save them?

[One Degree]

By the question was not framed regarding individuals, but the collective (the community).

I did not ask if any particular slave had a choice or not, I asked whether or not slaves staying in slavery was a choice....

Thus, as a collective, did they choose to stay in slavery by choosing to not, as a group, rebel against their overlords?

Or did they lack any choice in the matter, thus implying that they needed the white man to save them?

I am not sure that is a fair question. I would need to know how the individual slaves saw themselves. It is the connection they had to any ‘collective’ and what that collective suggested. The collective itself is not capable of action, just it’s individual members. Since rebellions were not widespread, I must assume the collective did not have widespread communication, or what they communicated was not total resistance.
So, I believe the collective can only be accused of accepting their slavery if they were acting against their own standards. Well more accurately, they did indeed accept their slavery but was it a collective choice? I don’t know and the individuals can only be judged based upon knowing the collective choice.

Edit: we must also keep in mind both slaves and masters views of slavery were far different from ours.

[Victoribus Spolia]

they did indeed accept their slavery but was it a collective choice?

Thats my point, if they accepted their slavery, they did-not-accept the alternative of resisting their slavery. Hence, collectively, they chose to remain, and (as you say) individuals can be judged on their relation to this collective decision.

My point was only this: Either they collectively chose to stay in slavery, or they were unable to choose, if we assume the underlying premise of Kanye West, which is, that had they chose to NOT stay in slavery, it would not have lasted 400 years. (this is Kanye's assumption).

Thus, Kanye's syllogism would be thus (not in propositional form FYI):

(the underlying premise) Premise One: A Collective Choice To Resist Slavery Would Have Led To Freedom In Less Than 400 Years.

Premise Two: Slavery Lasted 400 Years.

Kanye's Conclusion: The Collective Choice Was To Accept Slavery.

The Alternative Conclusion (By Kanye's Critics): Slaves Could Not Choose To Resist.

The Dilemma:

If the underlying premise is true (1), then either Kanye's conclusion or the alternative conclusion.

If the alternative conclusion, then the slaves were incapable of accomplishing their own freedom without the white man.

If Kanye's conclusion, then blacks bear some blame in remaining in their state of "oppression" for as long as they did.

That was Kanye's point in the whole discussion, he rejected the alternative conclusion as being inherently racist (as it implies black inferiority). Kanye West is trying to break out with a message that blacks need to stop blaming their plights on others and take responsibility for their choices and become more self-reliant and aspiring. He believes that leftist policies have kept blacks in a victim-mentality and a state of defeatism and he illustrates this attitude by even questioning the narrative that slavery was merely one-sided oppression and not partly to blame to a defeatist "psychological slavery" by his own people.

That is the context of this controversy. I get what he is trying to say and find the outrage kinda remarkable.

[One Degree]

@Victoribus Spolia
I agree with destroying the victim mentality argument. Bringing history into it makes it too complicated for most people, yet I don’t know how you can avoid it. You will have a lot of people, as we have seen on the forum, simply closing their minds and yelling racist.
It had to be a Black person to make the argument. He deserves a lot of credit for standing up. I have actually been surprised the personal attacks to discredit him have not been more severe. Times may be changing.
I do Twitter very little, but half my likes come from people like Kanye West, but I am still a racist here.

[Pants-of-dog]

By the question was not framed regarding individuals, but the collective (the community).

I did not ask if any particular slave had a choice or not, I asked whether or not slaves staying in slavery was a choice....

Thus, as a collective, did they choose to stay in slavery by choosing to not, as a group, rebel against their overlords?

Or did they lack any choice in the matter, thus implying that they needed the white man to save them?

They were not allowed to organise as a collective, so any question about their actions as a collective rests on incorrect assumptions.

Mind you, this is all just trolling on the part of West.

[skinster]

http://www.pajiba.com/celebrities_are_b ... omment.php

[Victoribus Spolia]

They were not allowed to organise as a collective, so any question about their actions as a collective rests on incorrect assumptions.

Whether they were allowed to or not is irrelevant (no one is denying that they forbidden to organize lol). Either they accepted their condition (including not being allowed to organized) or they were incapable of choosing either way.

That is Kanye's argument, he is assuming the premise that if black slaves, as a group, wanted to rise up, they would have and would have easily won their freedom in less that 400 years. So, in his argument, they must have chosen to accept their condition (what he called psychological slavery), the other alternative he is intentionally foregoing (because he likely views it as actually racist), is the view that blacks were incapable of choosing to stay or not stay in bondage (thus implying that they needed the white man). This alternative conclusion is the one he is trying to be rid of, he wants to be rid of the idea that blacks needed white governments, whether in the form of Republican emancipators or Democrat food-stamps.

That is his argument not mine; nonetheless, the intentional misreading of his point is quite amazing to me.

http://www.pajiba.com/celebrities_are_b ... omment.php

I actually thought there would be an argument in there unpacking and critiquing Kanye.....NOPE, just angry condemnations and a bunch of unhinged claptrap about how Kanye is basically an alt. right troll-feeding uncle tom.

the essence of sophistication.

[One Degree]

I made the mistake of reading it too. I will summarize for others.
Kanye West wrong because slavery bad. Never forget slavery bad. Hate all white people because slavery bad.

[skinster]

Start at a minute.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Yep.

you go right of Oprah Winfrey be ready to catch shit and be hated from everyone.

First time Kanye West ever felt real oppression was when he sided with conservatism.

[skinster]

^ Trevor Noah in the clip above already called it: you tikki torch carriers claiming Kanye as your own now.

[Suntzu]

Other. There were other option other than stay a slave or revolt. The continent was virtually empty. They could just walk away into the frontier wilderness. Some did. Some went to live with the Indians.

[One Degree]

Brilliant. If you don’t agree with our group, you must be the enemy. No individual views recognized.