[glinert]

This sad day in RUssian history, new nations joining EU. How terrible truly.

I like to remind all new nations joining EU so enthusiastically, we can still be in your capitals rolling tanks in one hour.

[Hamilcar]

I like to remind all new nations joining EU so enthusiastically, we can still be in your capitals rolling tanks in one hour.

Really, like your warships rusting in foreign ports because they can't pay for the fuel for the home trip?

[Napuljun]

Tanks dont fit in our streets!

[Stipe]

Not getting tanks to Malta and Cyprus.

Or Slovenia terribly easily for that matter.

Sorry glinert, I like you, but this thread is silly.

[RedStorm]

lol russia what a laughingstock no offense just blame ur leaders

[Goranhammer]

I would hope hope any Soviet remnants would realize that the EU is nothing but a waste of time, especially for them. They're better off returning to communism.

[Devlar]

This sad day in RUssian history, new nations joining EU. How terrible truly.

I like to remind all new nations joining EU so enthusiastically, we can still be in your capitals rolling tanks in one hour.

And a reminder for Russia, renew your agreements with the EU. It'll hurt you far more than it hurts us

[jpyy]

This sad day in RUssian history, new nations joining EU. How terrible truly.

I like to remind all new nations joining EU so enthusiastically, we can still be in your capitals rolling tanks in one hour.

You tried to do that to Finland in 1939 and in 1944 and you failed both times... better luck next time

[Vassili Zaitsev]

I would hope hope any Soviet remnants would realize that the EU is nothing but a waste of time, especially for them. They're better off returning to communism.

Oh my god! *gasp* I...I..agree with you goranhammer! *passes out from shock*

[Slip, Freudian]

Miss the Soviet days glinert?

Sorry, but you have to move on with the times. Invade all you want, Russia hasn't even finished the last war in Chechenya. It would probably do wonders for your economy too.

Don't be such a party-spoiler, let them join the EU if they wish.

[Boondock Saint]

I am moving this ...

[Conspectator]

Meanwhile, this topic itself is very interesting!
Effectively, the EU has now got some very different element inside it: several countries and milllions of new EU voters whose historical experience is vastly different from the Ramsfeldian "old Europe".
Just 3 point for you to contemplate:

-- these people did not live through 1968 'and all that'. These societies found themselves behind the Iron Curtain in 1940s and never had the crucual experience of the West-European 60s 'which never ended'.
-- these societies got rid of Communism very much on the vawe of anti-Soviet nationalism, often romantic nationalism. However democratic a nationalism it might look - ethnic politics is something very alien by contemporary West-European standards. And it was not specifically love for Western liberalism what motivated most of them to seek membership in NATO and the EU.
-- they never experienced the kind of profound secularisation that Western Europe did. On the contrary, religion was held dear precisely in opposition to the official communist atheism. So, in Poland alone the EU has now got dozens of millions of Catholics, many of them would probably be considered rather "fanatical" in any West-European country.

I will not be too surprised if the standard of the "mainstream" of the EU politics begins to ... drift significantly rightwards thanks to these new EU members. Now with countries like Poland and Slovakia in, it is also quite conceivable there may indeed emerge something like conservative Christian politics in the EU. On the other hand, in this expanded Europe the feminist and homosexual "lobbies" (as well as various libertarians) will probably find themselves amongst the main ('weight-')losers, at least in the immediate future, as such groups have really the least of clout in Central Europe.

[Devlar]

-- these societies got rid of Communism very much on the vawe of anti-Soviet nationalism, often romantic nationalism. However democratic a nationalism it might look - ethnic politics is something very alien by contemporary West-European standards. And it was not specifically love for Western liberalism what motivated most of them to seek membership in NATO and the EU.

Yet the problem with that analysis is that it forgets the homogeneity of quite a few of the new member states. I agree ethnic politics complicates things in heterogeneous countries, but in places like Poland or the Czech republic, without any significant minority groups, you do not face any serious challanges with ethnic politics. If you do not have anyone to brand as "the other" then there really cannot be ethnic politics. As for why the countries drifted toward the EU and NATO. For NATO I can agree, its about simple anti-Sovietism, but the EU represents something much greater in the minds of many eastern Europeans who see it as a return to Europe. Now this might not encompass the whole western-liberal democratic ideology, but it does encompass quite a few factors of it, and over time the culture will diffuse.

-- they never experienced the kind of profound secularisation that Western Europe did. On the contrary, religion was held dear precisely in opposition to the official communist atheism. So, in Poland alone the EU has now got dozens of millions of Catholics, many of them would probably be considered rather "fanatical" in any West-European country.

This I would also dispute with you. For the political elites this holds 100% true, for the masses its a much different story. Historically many of the eastern european countries had strong ties to the Catholic Church but they kept it out of the governing process. What we saw over the last 10 years in a place like Poland was elites trying to skew the process toward the catholic church not the people. It may be overly optimistic of me to say this but with the entrance of some of these countries into the EU and the weakening of the fantatical elites a great deal more secularization will occur. So I would agree with an immediate drift to the right, but I think within 10 years that drift will be all but gone.

[Conspectator]

EU represents something much greater in the minds of many eastern Europeans who see it as a return to Europe.

This is a classic statement which I will not dispute, and the classic reply to it is: "yes but return to what Europe"?
No doubt they felt compelled to "return" to Europe, as a matter of historical destiny, but then the kind of the historical old, Christian, etc., "European" Europe - that they were historically a part of until 1940s and were suddenly taken from - is now nowhere to find (except some remnants deeply frozen behind the Iron Curtain in the East). It is still hard to encounter a Central-European ideologically committed to e.g. "multiculturalism" and things of that kind (never mind feminist politics) which became mainstream in Western Europe: East-European liberals would not be ideologically opposed to it but would not take it any seriously either.
Yes, the reasons are their immediate historical experience and their considerable ethnic homogenity, etc., which makes many of those West-European political issues felt rather irrelevant in the East of the EU. This however does not at all make Eastern-Europeans any more predisposed wholeheartedly to accept them.
Moreover, in the new EU countries it is not uncommon to hear the following: "it is us who have remained the true Europe, and the 'old' EU is not really Europe anymore".

It may be overly optimistic of me to say this but with the entrance of some of these countries into the EU and the weakening of the fantatical elites a great deal more secularization will occur.

What can I say? Of course, it just remains to be seen. But I would also point to that prior to their formal accession on May 1 countries like Poland were already fully open to the EU in all political senses and hence fully exposed to all current West-European social ideologies for over a decade (without enjoying the privileges of EU membership). And yet this has produced negligible effect (if any) in terms of secularisation. Now the full set of membership privileges vis-a-vis the EU they actually got on May 1 in itself is unlikely to increase their sincere allegiance to secularism, (social) liberalism, "multiculturalism", etc.
Meanwhile, the Polish Catholic episcopate has already declared that Poland's accomplished EU accession is now a challenge to embrace for the Polish clergy and monastic orders (of which there is still no shortage). -- No, not at all in terms of resisting secularisation in the Polish homeland - but commensing the endeavour of the religious reconquista of Westrern Europe.

[Devlar]

This however does not at all make Eastern-Europeans any more predisposed wholeheartedly to accept them.
Moreover, in the new EU countries it is not uncommon to hear the following: "it is us who have remained the true Europe, and the 'old' EU is not really Europe anymore".

I've actually never heard that said, but then I haven't been there for quite a few years. I'll tell you in September if this is really the case, well if its really the case amongst the members of the government at least. As for the first part I'll bridge that with this quote

What can I say? Of course, it just remains to be seen. But I would also point to that prior to their formal accession on May 1 countries like Poland were already fully open to the EU in all political senses and hence fully exposed to all current West-European social ideologies for over a decade (without enjoying the privileges of EU membership).

No, no, no, no. Especially not in the political sense, I mean they might not be austercized but they sure as hell are not getting the level of culture as the rest of the European states. For the past 10 years the EU has talked down to Eastern Europe and made immigration from it to western europe a definate death trap. Since 1988 no Western European countries have made it particularly easy to move, and I mean this in terms of buisness as well as people. Cultural deffusion depends on people being able to move around freely and absorb the culture and return as well as buisness from western europe bringing its values (media especially). To use a playground analogy, Eastern Europe has been treated like the math club of high school integration. If anything the diffusion will only start from this point onward, cultural integration really cannot be achieved when someone is on the outside looking in.

Meanwhile, the Polish Catholic episcopate has already declared that Poland's accomplished EU accession is now a challenge to embrace for the Polish clergy and monastic orders (of which there is still no shortage). -- No, not at all in terms of resisting secularisation in the Polish homeland - but commensing the endeavour of the religious reconquista of Westrern Europe.

I heard of this many times, especially in Poland. With the SDL in power, and with a real lack of a unified political right in Poland (at least one that can hold on to an office for a decent term without splintering), I really think it'll fall on deaf ears. As for the public, i have mixed feelings about how much they actually pay attention to this.

[glinert]

Our military not as weak as you think.

NATO and America, no get overconfident.

[Vassili Zaitsev]

Besides, the U$ military is a joke nowadays. the leadership sucks, the men aren't as well trained anymore. And America is getting its ass kicked by militia in Iraq. Not a good sign.

[Liberal]

This sad day in RUssian history, new nations joining EU. How terrible truly.

I like to remind all new nations joining EU so enthusiastically, we can still be in your capitals rolling tanks in one hour.

Why sad for Russia? Because Russia isnt joining EU as well?

[Napuljun]

Why sad for Russia? Because Russia isnt joining EU as well?

Russia doesn't need the EU. It need a communist party brought to power by elections who can clean the mes cpaitalists and oligarchs have made.

[Conspectator]

I'll tell you in September if this is really the case, well if its really the case amongst the members of the government at least.

Interestingly, many people there tend to comment on things slightly differently depending on whether they regard the person they talk to being from the "East" or from the "West". I speak Polish with an eastern accent and was often regarded as someone, still, from the "East", and possibly this is why I was getting that much of comments critical of what Western Europe currently represents. - There is little point to grumble at 'godless secularism' in front of someone who is definitely presumed to believe in secularism and is not at all expected to understand e.g. the "antemuralis christianitatis" concept/version of "racja stanu", is there

But also consider this. For a decade they had a firmly established national political consensus: i.e. that joining NATO and the EU was the major raison d'Etat, national interest, simply a matter of historical destiny; anyone who challenged this, was ipso facto resigning from the political mainstream.
So, by this established consensus, all the "responsible" elements of their political elites and press felt for a long time largely compelled consciously to keep East-European disgruntlements about the character of West-European societies ( - such as secularism, feminist politics, "multiculturalism", overall social liberalism) under lid - the least it hinders the fundamental national interest of the accession.
Now this national interest having been accomplished, this raison d'Etat rationale disappearing - it will be indeed interesting to see how the display of the attitudes develops from now on, and what impact it may have on the overall 'political climate' in the EU. When it gets to the MEP elections in Central Europe, it may well happen that some in the EU West will be truely estonished! (Oh well, in fact Estonia is one of the more socially-liberal places in the new EU East.)

Code: Select allWhy sad for Russia? Because Russia isnt joining EU as well?

Hm, then think of how sad must be places like Moldova. They are not in Russia but are neither offered a prospect of EU accession, while Romania just nearby and speaking the same language, is on the track.