[ItsMe]

"Over 3000 Palestineans have died in the same period... "

throwing numbers out there are we?

I havnt read or heard of any palestinean loss's even close to that number.

[Deicidus]

Theres not only the dead, there are also thousands of injured, most of them cannot be fixed or cured do to lack of medical supplies.

After the first 5 weeks of the start of the second intifada, more than 7000 palestinians were injured, more and more everyday by live rounds. Also an increase of head and leg(knees) shots. A fact that was'nt denied by Israeli soldiers who are instructed not to kill for fear of increasing more international opinion against them.

Dr Jumana Odeh
Director of the Palestinian Happy Child Center
October 24th report


And you want to talk about Arafat being a terorrists, look at Israel past and present prime ministers.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, D. BEN-GURION.

Qualifications: War Criminal. Like Hitler, gave the orders that others carried out.

Ben-Gurion and the Haganah became convinced that they would have to drive the British out if they were ever going to get their state. That required unity within the ranks of Zionism and they proposed a joint military campaign to the Irgun and Stern Gang who, until the autumn of 1945, they had solemnly proclaimed to be terrorists, fascists and madmen. And Begin, who, during the Saison, had put up wall posters comparing them to "Quisling and Laval", eagerly accepted. -- Quote from Haber, Menachem Begin, p.146.

Ben-Gurion was head of the Jewish Agency. After the adoption of the united front against the British, Ben-Gurion directed the terrorist "war" from the shadows. At this time, it was he who gave the "green light" for nearly all Jewish terrorist activity. The public relations disaster caused by the King David Hotel bombing, bought the detente with the Irgun and Stern Gang to an end (the Jewish Agency denounced the attack, claiming that the Irgun had violated its specifications as to when the bomb should be set). After directing the 1948 war to conquer Palestine and drive out its inhabitants, he became Prime Minister. An ideas man. It was his idea to create a civil war in Lebanon in order to establish a Maronite government that would align itself with Israel. Although it was difficult to ignite this civil war, their continual efforts over the years were eventually successful (and hundreds of thousands died). A truly evil man.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, M. SHARRETT.

Qualifications: Close associate of most the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believed in the aims of the war criminals, however, differed on the means of establishing those aims. For example, he tried to prevent the Qibia (Kibya) attack (ordered by D. Ben-Gurion and carried out by A. Sharon) fearing that such ruthless attacks (in this case a massacre) might alienate Western opinion.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, L. ESHKOL.

Qualifications: Although, not personally a terrorist, assassin or war criminal Eshkol organized the 1967 war which resulted in the largest expansion of the Jewish state ever.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, Y. RABIN.

Qualifications: War Criminal. In 1948 (on instruction from Ben Gurion) ethnically cleansed some 70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and Ramleh. This included the massacre of several hundred resident civilians (to get them moving). In 1967 Rabin ordered the ethnic cleansing of some 5,000 from the villages of Emwas, Beit Nuba and Yalou and the dynamiting and bulldozing of their homes.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, M. BEGIN.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Leader of the terrorist gang Irgun. Responsible for the Deir Yassin massacre, the bombing of the King David Hotel, etc,

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, Y. SHAMIR.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Operations commander of the terrorist Stern Gang. Together with Stern proposed a war-time alliance with Adolf Hitler and the establishment of a totalitarian Jewish state. Responsible (with Began) for the Deir Yassin massacre. The organiser of two infamous assassinations: the killing of Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident for the Middle East, on 6 November 1944; and the slaying of Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN's special Mediator on Palestine, on 17 September 1948.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, B. NETANYAHU.

Qualifications: Bungler thief/con-man. One of the more moral Israeli prime ministers. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians (by Israeli military forces) in Lebanon.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, S. PERES.

Qualifications: Plays "good cop". Close associate of all the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believes in the aims of the war criminals, just differs on the means. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians. What Moshe Sharett had to say about Shimon Peres: "I have stated that I totally and utterly reject (Shimon) Peres and consider his rise to prominence a malignant, immoral disgrace. I will rend my clothes in mourning for the State if I see him become a minister in the Israeli government".

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, E. BARAK.

Qualifications: Assassin. In 1973, assassinated three Palestinian leaders in Beirut, including the poet Kemal Nasser, while dressed as a woman.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, A. SHARON.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Presided over the massacres of some 2-3,000 civilians at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Beirut. Founded Unit 101 (a notorious death squad within the Israeli Defense Force). For many years, commanded cross-border Unit 101 raids, for example, the 1953 massacre at Qibia (Kibya) where civilians were blown up while inside their houses.

[Freedom]

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Presided over the massacres of some 2-3,000 civilians at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Beirut. Founded Unit 101 (a notorious death squad within the Israeli defence Force). For many years, commanded cross-border Unit 101 raids, for example, the 1953 massacre at Qibia (Kibya) where civilians were blown up while inside their houses.

I dunno maybe i'm thinking of a different incident. But one of these massacres attributed to Israel had nothing to do with them...they tried to pin this crap on Sharon before and guess were it got them? No were





Breakdown of the casualties from the current intifada, as you may or may not notice, a higher percentage of Civilians on the Israeli side have been killed...weird no?

Believes in the aims of the war criminals

Holy crap now i'm a war criminal...

Also anyone who blames Israel for the movement of peope during 1948 is delusional.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Yes you see Deicidius...teh israelis had NOTHING to do with Sabra and Shatila. It was the Lebanese Christian Militia which slaughtered about 5000 Palestineans in those camps in a matter of days. The Israeli Army ONLY surrounded the town, bombarded it with artillery, gave artillery and air strike support to the Lebanese Christian Militia, gave them weapons, and prevented anyone from leaving the camps until the Lebanese Militia had finished their slaughtering job.

The Israelis were completely innocent...Ariel Sharon is an ANGEL...

[ItsMe]

Deicidus nice propaganda.


Tovarish Spetsnaz I said 850 Israelis in the LAST year.

Freedom great pie charts!

Most people who support the Palestinians don’t even have a clue about their back ground, and Arafat’s UNQUESTIONED terrorist background.

The Palestinian hate monger leadership is largely to blame for most of their problems. The Palestinians could have had their FIRST real state if they would have accepted the more then GENEROUS offer of the West bank and the Gaza strip with shared sovereignty over Jerusalem.

Then hamas starts attacking citizens during the latest real effort to create peace in Israel. It is only to evident that there will never be peace when the world allows terrorists like hamas to have any real type of legitimacy, while keeping a terrorist like Arafat in power.

I think removing Arafat is a choice between a rock and a hard place but one they must make. Without a Palestinian leadership who will try and combat terrorism so they can focus on diplomatic solution. Peace in the Middle East is a hopeless cause.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Something like 2500 Palestineans were killed the first year of the Second Intifada.

How many this year?? I don't know...want to bet its 3 times more than the dead Zionists??

[The American Lion]

Something like 2500 Palestineans were killed the first year of the Second Intifada.

How many this year?? I don't know...want to bet its 3 times more than the dead Zionists??

Yes, but its not our problem. Since Israel dont send suicide terrorists to kill Muslims kids in a bus going to school. Its not Israel's fault they live in crowed population areas. Blame Jordan, Saudi Araba, Egypt, Syria for using the Palistians as puppets to get rid of Israel.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Bastard Syrians....they don't take in the people we kicked out.

Its ALWAYS the victims fault...

[Deicidus]

The Hamas didnt breake the cease fire, Israel did. The Hamas made their attack on a sunday and monday. The previous friday, israeli forces killed two Hamas members in Naplouse. What, did you think the Hamas would have just sit on their ass waiting to get killed one after another. They dont represent the palestinian people, if they did, the whole population would start suicide bombings. They only represent themselves. They attack and defend themselves on their own judgment.

The media is awfull quick to foget that the ``targeted assasination`` makes hundreds of wounded per week. Not to mention the botched attempts. They kill Hamas members in their houses while their wives and children are in it. They shoot rockets at cars in the middle of the street, wounding people around it.


Heres another example of israel ``defensive war``

Fourteen-year-old Muhammad Hawashin was shot twice in the face and killed on April 3, as he walked with a group of women and children towards the local hospital.

Wheelchair bound Kamal Zghair, 57-years-old, was shot and run over by IDF tanks on April 10 as he wheeled himself down the road to his home, equipped with a white flag.

Afaf Disuqi, an unarmed civilian, responded to a knock on her door on April 5 and was killed by a bomb thrown by IDF soldiers. Eyewitnesses reported that the soldiers were laughing as Disuqi was horribly mutilated by the blast.

Summary executions

HRW also found evidence of summary executions, a clear war crime. Jamal al-Sabbagh was shot to death by the IDF on April 6, whilst obeying orders to strip off his clothes. Munthir al-Haj, a 22-year-old Palestinian militant, was brutally killed on April 3, as he lay severely wounded. Al-Haj had been participating in the resistance when he was injured and taken by other fighters to the steps of the mosque on the top floor of the al-Razi hospital. Unarmed and bleeding from multiple wounds, al-Haj called out for help from hospital staff who, despite repeated attempts, were unable to retrieve him. For almost two hours, al-Haj attempted to drag himself into the hospital, before an Israeli solider opened fire from a tank, killing him instantly.


Murder of a nurse, blocking of rescue workers

Numerous other instances were recorded of the injured being denied urgent medical care, and of health workers coming under attack. Nurse Farwa Jammal, 27-years-old, was shot dead on April 3 as she tried to rescue a neighbour. Dressed in her white uniform, marked with a red crescent symbol (the Muslim equivalent of the red cross), Jammal left her house with her sister, Rufaida, to try and help the wounded man. Rufaida and Farwa were shot several times and injured by IDF soldiers, despite the clear visibility of their uniforms. Although Farwa lay dying, the soldiers continued to fire, throwing bombs at those attempting to rescue the sisters. Finally Rufaida was rescued by her husband, but Farwa was dead.

The IDF consistently blocked the “passage of emergency medical vehicles and personnel to Jenin refugee camp for eleven days, from April 4 to April 15,” HRW report. In this time, those injured, as well as the sick, had no access to medical treatment, whilst the functioning of hospitals and emergency vehicles were severely impaired, the latter being repeatedly fired upon by IDF soldiers. At other times, medical personnel were stopped and forced to strip to their underwear, preventing patients receiving urgent treatment.

The IDF also prevented humanitarian organisations, including the International Committee of the Red Cross, gaining access to the camp and other Palestinian areas. This blockade continued in Jenin even after the majority of armed Palestinians had surrendered


Using “human shields”

The Fourth Geneva Convention specifically outlaws the practice of using human shields, but HRW reports that such coerced use of civilians was “a widespread practice” in Jenin. “In virtually every case in which IDF soldiers entered civilian homes, residents told Human Rights Watch that IDF soldiers were accompanied by Palestinian civilians who were participating under duress”. Such cases include that of Kamal Tawalbi, the father of 14 children, who described how soldiers kept him and his 14-year-old son for three hours in the line of fire, using his and his son’s shoulders to rest their rifles as they fired.


The most fundamental principle of the laws of war, HRW states, “requires that combatants be distinguished from non-combatants, and that military objectives be distinguished from protected property and protected places”. This was breached on several occasions. Israeli forces fired indiscriminately upon civilian homes and property, without warning. Several civilians were killed in their homes, whilst asleep, by helicopter fire and missile strikes, despite the absence of any combat in the vicinity.


According to the Jerusalem Post, “a military court has allegedly heard evidence that Defense Minister Ariel Sharon urged Israeli soldiers to beat Arab schoolchildren in the West Bank,” referring to the same trial of soldiers “accused of brutally mistreating Arab youths in Hebron last March,” a trial that “has attracted almost no publicity in Israel” — though it did shortly after. The source is a major in the reserves who told the court that the military governor had quoted Sharon to this effect. At the trial, soldiers reportedly told the court that they had beaten Arab high school students while the major stood by and watched, hitting them as hard as they could.

Israel’s Sacred Terrorism
Author: Livia Rokach

If the Palestinian had the ressources, money and infrastructure to create a force powerfull enough to wipe out terrorism, they would have been able to use it to raise and army against Israel.

No, Israel dont send suicide bombers on palestinian buses. But still, the kids are afraid to walk in the street, no knowing what building will blow up or what car will be targeted. Israelis only response to civilian casualties in their targeted assasinations is that these civilians shouldnt have been there in the first place or that they were probably all connected to terrorists groups.

Call this propaganda all you want, I got all of it from articles and site of the UN and the Human Rights Watch (HRW). The real propaganda comes from people like you, putting lives of israeli civilian casualties over the palestinian ones. Propaging the american concept that some people are civilized and that some people's lives are better than others.

[Freedom]

Something like 2500 Palestineans were killed the first year of the Second Intifada

This is propaghanda of the highest ignorance. Only 617 Palestinian noncombatants have been killed, of which Israel is responsible for 43%. 417 Israeli noncombatants have been killed, the vast vast majority of which have been killed by Palestinians. The Palestinian "holocaust"(as people like to call it) has been an education in propaghanda to us all. Fact remains a greater percentage of Israeli noncombatants have been killed at the hands of Palestinians than vice-versa.

Before you craps piss on any longer with your shit, here is a statistical rundown of the a latest Pre-Planned Intifada: http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articled ... icleid=439

Bah cant you left wingers get anythingright?

[ItsMe]

"They kill Hamas members in their houses while their wives and children are in it."

The only people guilty for their deaths are the terrorist scum sleeping next to his wife and kids. Next you’re going to say there should be no night bombings...ever hear "guilt by association"?

What is sad is you almost sound like you believe your own propaganda...why don’t you read from several different sources instead of the Palestinian terrorist funded hate crap you keep posting.

Also try comparing combatant deaths Israel inflicts and compare that to the civilian deaths the terrorist scum inflict.

[Freedom]

Speaking of War Crimes and Crimes against humanity...what do you consider the biggest crime against humanity? thats right Genocide...

Crimes against humanity


By Louis Rene Beres



Readers of daily newspapers are now well acquainted with unending Palestinian calls for the annihilation of Israel. What might not be apparent, however, is that such calls — sometimes in the carefully whispered voice of the Palestine Authority, more often in the strident voice of PA accomplices in Hamas and other related terror groups — constitute an especially serious crime under international law.
Genocide has always been prohibited by international law. In the words of the Genocide Convention, a binding multilateral treaty that codified post-Nuremberg norms and entered into force in 1951, the sorts of murderous acts long advocated by Arab leaders and terror groups qualify very precisely as genocide. For example, the Fatah organization Web site still calls openly for the "eradication" of Israel. This call echoes earlier genocidal codifications in the still unchanged Palestinian National Charter, in Fatah's ongoing calls for Inqirad mujtama (the extinction of Israeli society), and in the Charter of Hamas ("There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammad! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill.")
War and genocide need not be mutually exclusive. Palestinian preparations for a final battle with "the Jews" are not only for an indispensable and unavoidable war, but also — ultimately — for the extermination of an entire people. Regarding ties with PLO, the Hamas Charter says the following: "The PLO is among the closest to the Hamas, for it constitutes a father, a brother, a relative a friend." On the primacy of hatred toward Judaism, not Israel, the Charter states:" Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish, and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims."
Under international law, calls by the PLO and Hamas for the killing of Jews — whether indirectly in Jihad or directly through mass murder — constitute calls for genocide. Ironically, the PA authorities who issue such calls, including of course Nobel Laureate Yasser Arafat, are widely recognized by the international community outside the United States as official emissaries of "peace." It is time for this community, especially Europe, to acknowledge that the same individuals who call for commission of the world's most egregious crime cannot possibly be a proper source of partnership and reconciliation with Israel.
While most of the world outside of Washington and Jerusalem chooses to ignore calls for the crime of genocide, international law has an unswerving obligation to stop and take notice. Expressed by leaders of the major states in world politics, the norms and principles of international law should be invoked in time.
The Palestinian Authority and its associates are obligated to refrain from incitement against Israel. The Interim Agreement (Oslo 2) states, at Article XXII, that Israel and the PA "shall seek to foster mutual understanding and tolerance and shall accordingly abstain from incitement, including hostile propaganda, against each other." In the Note for the Record, which accompanies the Hebron Protocol of Jan. 15, 1997, the PA reaffirmed its commitment regarding "Preventing Incitement and Hostile Propaganda, as specified in Article XXII of the Interim Agreement." Similar if more general reaffirmations can be found in the conveniently warmed-over Oslo now called a road map.
What is not widely understood is that the Genocide Convention criminalizes not only the various acts of genocide, but also (Article III) conspiracy to commit genocide and direct and public incitement to commit genocide. Articles II, III and IV of the Genocide Convention are fully applicable in all cases of direct and public incitement to commit genocide. For the convention to be invoked, it is sufficient that any one of the state parties call for a meeting, through the United Nations, of all the state parties (Article VIII).
The 1965 International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination could also come productively into play. This treaty condemns "all propaganda and all organizations which attempt to justify or promote racial hatred and discrimination in any form," obliging, at Article 4(a) State parties to declare as "an offense punishable by law all dissemination of ideas based on racial superiority or hatred, incitement to racial discrimination, as well as all acts of violence or incitement to such acts against any race or group of persons." Article 4(b) affirms that State parties "Shall declare illegal and prohibit organizations, and also organized and all other propaganda activities, which promote and incite racial discrimination, and shall recognize participation in such organizations or activities as an offense punishable by law." Further authority for curtailing and punishing Palestinian calls for genocidal destruction of Jews can be found at Article 20(2) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights: "Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law."
The point of the judgments at Nuremberg was to ensure that all future crimes against humanity be identified, prosecuted and punished. This point should now be kept in mind as "moderate" Palestinian leaders and their allies advocate genocidal extermination of Israel. Palestinian suicide bombings, inasmuch as they are clearly designed to further such extermination, are themselves a punishable crime against humanity.

Louis Rene Beres is a professor of international law at Purdue University.

[ihavenoname]

I would like to see a UN resolution condemning Suicide Bombings and the encouragement of children to blow themsleves up - But I know that would never happen. The UN is a fucking joke.

I'm not bothing to try and change anyones mind here. The line was drawn in the sand a long time ago.

The fact is that while the Majority of Israelis agree with giving the WB, Gaza strip and part of Jerusalem to the Pals for an independent state- the majority of Pals will not accept that- and still wish for a right of return and the destruction of the Jewish state.

I love how the pro-pal people here bring up the fact that it is not Jewish land- they stole it blah blah blah. Well if you hadnt gone to war in 48, 56, 67, and 74 and tried to kill all the jews there then you may have a point- but now it is moot- so fuck off . What about the 800,000 Jewish refugees kicked out of arab countries after 48? What about the Syrian "occupation" of christian lebanon?

Fact: This conflict is perpetuated by the Arab countries and thier own horrific treatment of the "palestinians". Black september?

If the Arab countires really wanted peace- then they would have had it long ago. So for all you pro-pal people here... Keep it up- keep perpetuating the conflict- you may just see a bigger and more dangerous Israel in a couple of years because of it- we all know how you would love that.


Ever heard of the Sampson option?

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Well if you hadnt gone to war in 48, 56, 67, and 74 and tried to kill all the jews there then you may have a point- but now it is moot- so fuck off Smile . What about the 800,000 Jewish refugees kicked out of arab countries after 48? What about the Syrian "occupation" of christian lebanon?

First off...its 1973...not 74...

Second...WHAT Jewish refugees kicked out after 1948??? Egypt still had Jews in its armed forces in 1967 (most of whom were agents for Israel and resulted in a great defeat for the Arabs). Jews left Arab countries VOLUNTARELY...to go to Israel. But MANY remained behind...and were NOT persecuted against. As I mentioned, Egypt still had many in its armed forces by 1967. Some Jews still live in Arab countries...in casue you were not aware.

Syrian "occupation" of "Christian" Lebanon??? I didn't know Lebanon was "christian"!! Thats news to me...considering 70% are muslim.

And I suppose yours was not an "occupation" of Lebanon??

[ihavenoname]

Second...WHAT Jewish refugees kicked out after 1948??? Egypt still had Jews in its armed forces in 1967 (most of whom were agents for Israel and resulted in a great defeat for the Arabs). Jews left Arab countries VOLUNTARELY...to go to Israel. But MANY remained behind...and were NOT persecuted against. As I mentioned, Egypt still had many in its armed forces by 1967. Some Jews still live in Arab countries...in casue you were not aware.

Bullshit. Thats as bad as saying 'what arab refugees?' they left voluntarily.... both arguements are full of holes. It still doesnt answer why all those countries attacked Israel in the first place.

Not discriminated against???? since when is not being able to own land and having to pay special infidel taxes not discrimination>>>>?

oh and last time I checked there were 6 jews living in Iraq.
How many Jews are even ALLOWED in Saudi Arabia????
Can Jews own land in arab counties??? I know that there are about 800,000 Arab Israelis- and they can vote and own land in Israel. Why the double standard??

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

It still doesnt answer why all those countries attacked Israel in the first place.

It still doesn't answer the question of why the Zionist entity of "Israel" EXISTS in the first place???

When you explain that to me...I'll tell you why they attacked it...

Bullshit. Thats as bad as saying 'what arab refugees?' they left voluntarily....

No, its not the same. In one case, jews from ALL OVER THE WORLD left to go to Israel. Are you saying the US was persecuting Jews becasue many American Jews went to Israel???

On the other hand...Israel tanks drove people out of their homes...I don't see this as being the same with the above.

oh and last time I checked there were 6 jews living in Iraq.

Who said anything about Iraq?? There were 5 Jews living in Albania...but we didn't give a fuck about them.

I was speaking of Egypt and Syria...both of which had large jewish minorities in their country...and even had them in their militaries until 1967. How many Palestineans were in the Israeli military in 1967???

I know that there are about 800,000 Arab Israelis- and they can vote and own land in Israel. Why the double standard??

Would these be the Palestineans???

[ihavenoname]

Why perpetuate Bloodshed and Hatred? I'm sure you'll spin it real quick and say it's all The Zionist Entity's fault for perpetuating bloodhed and hatred. Yeah- right. It's ALL the Jew's fault.

I'm not even going to bother to respond to you anymore. This is all I will respond to you with from now on:


Israel has as much a right to exist as a Jewish state than Saudi Arabia has a right to exist as an Islamic state.

[The American Lion]

It still doesn't answer the question of why the Zionist entity of "Israel" EXISTS in the first place???

Ask the members of the UN in 1947.

When you explain that to me...I'll tell you why they attacked it...

Lets see their Jewish.

On the other hand...Israel tanks drove people out of their homes...I don't see this as being the same with the above.

Theres an error on your part. Homes of Palistian terrorists.

[ihavenoname]

One last thing- If you refuse to accept the right that Israel has to live in Peace and be a Jewish state- Then don't bitch when Israel retaliates against people like you.

[Freedom]

So Tov, since your the History buff, tell me when exactly did the first independent Palestinian state come to be? Or do you forget the first mention of Palestinians was by the Romans who thought they could whipe out the jews by creating a new race of people?

"Palestine" is just Arabs moved by the British into that Area during war times. When they broke up Israel and Palestine, the pre-requisite for being a Palestinian was to have lived in Palestine 2 years prior to partition.

Why should any country in the Middle East exist? They were nearly all created the same way...by Europeans.