[Potemkin]

Well I actually asked about evidence for Abraham not the Exodus. I don't think a (apparent) lack of hard evidence for the Exodus proves that Abraham never existed, one is free to interpret it that way of course.

There is the Tomb of the Patriarchs, purportedly the burial place of Abraham, that tomb exists. Also there are the Ugaritic texts (cuneiform tablets) and there are three land contracts among them that mirror the Biblical account of the tomb sale of the cave at Machpelah in Hebron.

The tomb certainly exists, doesn’t mean Abraham ever did.

[Sherlock Holmes]

The tomb certainly exists, doesn’t mean Abraham ever did.

I agree, evidence is not proof, I never said that the existence of the tomb proves Abraham existed, I said it is evidence consistent with the Biblical narrative and the Ugaritic texts too are consistent with the Biblical narrative.

You said "There’s no archaeological evidence that any of these Biblical characters even existed" but that's clearly untrue, I also asked you how would you recognize evidence if you did stumble upon it, perhaps you're expecting a photograph or a DVD recording of him?

[Potemkin]

I agree, evidence is not proof, I never said that the existence of the tomb proves Abraham existed, I said it is evidence consistent with the Biblical narrative and the Ugaritic texts too are consistent with the Biblical narrative.

You said "There’s no archaeological evidence that any of these Biblical characters even existed" but that's clearly untrue, I also asked you how would you recognize evidence if you did stumble upon it, perhaps you're expecting a photograph or a DVD recording of him?

This is a valid point. After all, there is little physical evidence that a person called Julius Caesar ever existed. Most human beings pass through the world and leave little or no physical trace behind them. But when the Bible states that Abraham died at the age of 175, I think we are entitled to take that with a pinch of salt. And what else did the authors of the Bible just make up?

[wat0n]

There were no Jews, no Israelites on earth UNTIL after Abraham was born. Abraham was born in and migrated from Ur to Canaan, every Jew alive and that ever lived, is descended from Abraham, therefore no Jew can be said to be indigenous to Palestine, period. There's enough Zionist lying and conspiracy fantasies as it is, we don't need more.

Are you religious?

I want to see where you're coming from with this, as @Potemkin is correct as far as the available archaeological evidence goes.

Although Ur is relatively close to the southernmost part of the Zagros, so maybe the Bible isn't as off point as one would think.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Are you religious?

I want to see where you're coming from with this, as @Potemkin is correct as far as the available archaeological evidence goes.

Although Ur is relatively close to the southernmost part of the Zagros, so maybe the Bible isn't as off point as one would think.

I don't quite understand what you're asking me, nothing I've said here is an expression of any kind of religious conviction.

[wat0n]

I don't quite understand what you're asking me, nothing I've said here is an expression of any kind of religious conviction.

How so? The only source documenting Abraham's existence is the Old Testament.

I also find your response weird because of what I mentioned in the last paragraph. Chances are, much of the population of Ur itself came from the Zagros.

At last, these genealogical arguments are fallacious because the eastern Mediterranean has always been a crossroads and trade zone. So of course most people are fairly mixed (maybe the Druze being the exception to some extent, since they traditionally live in isolated mountainous areas and don't intermarry). As such, like in Latin America, American racial constructs are not useful here.

[Sherlock Holmes]

How so? The only source documenting Abraham's existence is the Old Testament.

I never said otherwise, perhaps you have difficulty treating scripture as having some historic significance.

I also find your response weird because of what I mentioned in the last paragraph. Chances are, much of the population of Ur itself came from the Zagros.

I have no idea, I've never considered that question.

At last, these genealogical arguments are fallacious because the eastern Mediterranean has always been a crossroads and trade zone. So of course most people are fairly mixed (maybe the Druze being the exception to some extent, since they traditionally live in isolated mountainous areas and don't intermarry). As such, like in Latin America, American racial constructs are not useful here.

If the genealogy I depicted is accurate then my conclusions are reasonable, namely that at the time of Abraham being in Ur, there were potentially hundreds of thousands of descendants from Canaan and presumably these had settled hundreds of years earlier in the area we now call Palestine. When Abraham migrated West and gave rise to Jacob and the first Israelites, these would have been a tiny minority in a land populated by "Canaanites".

Of course the genealogy might be a lie, the historicity of the Old Testament might be fictitious but then this same objection can be raised with respect to ANY historic claims, especially ancient historic claims.

The key point I'm making though, is that anyone who argues Biblically to support modern Israel, must face reality and that is the Jews were never indigenous to Palestine, Canaanites were there before them - that's what the OT itself says!

[Potemkin]

I never said otherwise, perhaps you have difficulty treating scripture as having some historic significance.

I have no idea, I've never considered that question.

If the genealogy I depicted is accurate then my conclusions are reasonable, namely that at the time of Abraham being in Ur, there were potentially hundreds of thousands of descendants from Canaan and presumably these had settled hundreds of years earlier in the area we now call Palestine. When Abraham migrated West and gave rise to Jacob and the first Israelites, these would have been a tiny minority in a land populated by "Canaanites".

Of course the genealogy might be a lie, the historicity of the Old Testament might be fictitious but then this same objection can be raised with respect to ANY historic claims, especially ancient historic claims.

The key point I'm making though, is that anyone who argues Biblically to support modern Israel, must face reality and that is the Jews were never indigenous to Palestine, Canaanites were there before them - that's what the OT itself says!

Zionism was never a religious movement basing its claims on Biblical texts. The early Zionists were secular, many of them atheists, who had consciously rejected the religion of their ancestors. They had no more faith in the historical veracity of Biblical texts than I have. The historical status of the Bible’s claims are irrelevant to the ideology of Zionism.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Zionism was never a religious movement basing its claims on Biblical texts. The early Zionists were secular, many of them atheists, who had consciously rejected the religion of their ancestors. They had no more faith in the historical veracity of Biblical texts than I have. The historical status of the Bible’s claims are irrelevant to the ideology of Zionism.

That was largely true in the past but the fanatical Jews who support parties like the "Religious Zionism Party" very much use scripture to justify their ideology.

This is from Wikipedia:

In 1862, German Orthodox Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Kalischer published his tractate Derishat Zion, positing that the salvation of the Jews, promised by the Prophets, can come about only by self-help. Rabbi Moshe Shmuel Glasner was another prominent rabbi who supported Zionism. The main ideologue of modern Religious Zionism was Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, who justified Zionism according to Jewish law, and urged young religious Jews to support efforts to settle the land, and the secular Labour Zionists to give more consideration to Judaism. Kook saw Zionism as a part of a divine scheme which would result in the resettlement of the Jewish people in its homeland.

[wat0n]

Well, you should be aware that there are other arguments in this case. I also don't believe in the religious ones, but then again I am for two states.

[FiveofSwords]

Source



Good to see this spreading not only to other universities but also to the university staff.

Well if you arrest people for not approving of israel committing genocide, people might get the impression that jews have some sort of power in the usa.

[FiveofSwords]

Zionism was never a religious movement basing its claims on Biblical texts. The early Zionists were secular, many of them atheists, who had consciously rejected the religion of their ancestors. They had no more faith in the historical veracity of Biblical texts than I have. The historical status of the Bible’s claims are irrelevant to the ideology of Zionism.

Dude...there are literally 'red heffers' being sent to Israel so that they can be sacrificed on some creepy jew altar so that their messiah will come and make all the gentiles slaves to the jews.

There exist secular zionists, but there are also very religious zionists. In fact the ultra religious sect of Israel has something like 12% of the government seats, and they are exempt from military service.

It is reductionist (as is typical of you) and a bit silly to suggest that zionism is only a secular movement. That aspect exists, sure, but so does highly religious zionism. Different people have different reasons for supporting Israel.

Then you have creepy Christian zionists like Glen beck who just seem to actually believe that jews are the master race. People who support zionism for religious reasons, despite not even being Jewish. Which on the face of it would seem laughably absurd. But we do live in absurd times.

[KurtFF8]

Well if you arrest people for not approving of israel committing genocide, people might get the impression that jews have some sort of power in the usa.

If people have that impression then they're just antisemitic and should be challenged.

[FiveofSwords]

If people have that impression then they're just antisemitic and should be challenged.

That is what jews would want, of course.

[wat0n]

No one would be arrested if protesters did not disrupt normal university operations and harassed students. Anti-Israel protests in colleges are hardly a new phenomenon, they even have their own week and this doesn't bring much pushback beyond pro-Israel circles.

[KurtFF8]

No one would be arrested if protesters did not disrupt normal university operations and harassed students. Anti-Israel protests in colleges are hardly a new phenomenon, they even have their own week and this doesn't bring much pushback beyond pro-Israel circles.

Now sure how that event is relevant to the repression being faced right now.

Again you would be out here praising the police for arresting civil rights demonstrators for violating private property laws for their sit down demonstrations I bet.

"BuT ThEy ViOlAtEd ThE LaW!"

[QatzelOk]

The tomb certainly exists, doesn’t mean Abraham ever did.

All this obsessing over a fake religion that is plagiarized from a much older religion?

The character Abraham comes from the Hindu myth god Brahma, who married his sister Saraswati became a-BRAHAM who marries his sister Sara.

Sara’s maidservant Hagar is the Ghaggar river in India.

The sacrificial son Isaac is Hindu Ishaak – the friend of Shiva. ...

Brahman = Abraham?
Saraswati = Sara?
Ghaggar = Hagar
Ishaak = Isaac?

How fake is our Modern Western God-world?

[Potemkin]

All this obsessing over a fake religion that is plagiarized from a much older religion?



Brahman = Abraham?
Saraswati = Sara?
Ghaggar = Hagar
Ishaak = Isaac?

How fake is our Modern Western God-world?

All Gods are more or less fake, @QatzelOk. The Bible is great literature and great mythology, but anyone who takes it as an accurate record of actual historical events needs to have their bumps felt.

[wat0n]

Now sure how that event is relevant to the repression being faced right now.

The same organizations that participate in the IAW are involved in the harassment of Jewish students and the disruption of university operations.

Again you would be out here praising the police for arresting civil rights demonstrators for violating private property laws for their sit down demonstrations I bet.

"BuT ThEy ViOlAtEd ThE LaW!"

Yes, I have no problem with enforcing the law against segregationists.

[KurtFF8]

The same organizations that participate in the IAW are involved in the harassment of Jewish students and the disruption of university operations.

This is a lie.

Yes

So you've just admitted that you would side with the segregationists.

I have no problem with enforcing the law against segregationists.

And now you're contradicting the first part of your sentence. You must not have understood what I wrote or as usual you're just being bad faith and contradictory.