[Rancid]

How do you decide who is clean and not clean? Does "clean politician" mean one close to your political views?

It means a clear set of standards, ethics, and expectations. It means transparency (like getting rid of dark money). Other organizations do this all the time. From businesses, to social clubs. It's really not that hard at all dude. It takes will and more of all, intelligence.

What about you just not vote for guys that you don't like? Let the rest to democracy functions itself?

Yes, but within bounds that you are choosing to completely ignore. Democracy cannot function if power is given to people who try to undermine and destroy it. Which is what we have here. A person like Trump shouldn't be given protection under a system that he is actively trying to destroy.

There needs to be guardrails around giving power to entities that will turn around and erode/destroy the institutions that gave them the power.

[wat0n]

Convicting a former president almost equals to declaring war. It is also a vioaltion of free elections as the man is a presidental candidate again.

It is a gamechanger move but not for Democrats. You will see it when Republicans will win everything in November.

Wrong. If anything, it's the sign of a mature, functioning democracy since it shows nobody's above the law.

The US is hardly the only democratic country with an imprisoned former Head of Government/Head of State.

[Rancid]

@Istanbuller

You are operating out of extreme bad faith when you talk about "democracy" in how you speak of it.

In 2020, the democratic process played out as it should. However, once Trump lost (which he never conceded), he actively tried to over throw the government. How is that democracy?

Your whole premise is so full of shit dude.

My overall point is that if you are going to do that, then you have no right to try and get elected again, because you are clearly not in support of the democratic process. INstead, you seek to destroy it. It's really that simple, yet... somehow.. you and others don't get it.

The hilarity here is that, if Trump never did that, he'd probably have a REALLY REALLY good chance of getting elected in 2024. In that hypothetical timeline, I'd still think he's an ass, but I wouldn't be against him appearing on the ballots again. IN my eyes, the cardinal and unforgivable sin is Jan 6th and all the coercion of state governments to overturn results. It is disappointing that so many forget this basic hard and indisputable fact. A fact that clearly demonstrates this person is not compatible with democratic ideas. This isn't even hearsay, it is in video, audio, and witnessed by his inner circle (i.e. not democrats). Yet..... here we are with some of you.

Separate from that, it should be of no surprise that a piece of shit like that, would get into all sorts of other legal trouble, like his rape trial, and these illegal business activity crimes he was found guilty of (which some of you are just excusing and excusing). Still, that is besides the point. Fact is, he is a traitor and shouldn't be allowed to run due his past actions of trying to overthrow the government.

Fuck trump


"oh no no no, but the deep state!... you're a bot!"

The amount of inconsistent trash some of you are spewing is incredible.

[JohnRawls]

I think this is probably true. It would be all the more certain if we had a popular vote election. Sadly....

I am a lifelong conservative and there is one thing that simply astonishes me. That is, that the old-time conservative message is a real winner. The problem with this message is the MAGA crowd. They are not conservatives. They are fascists. Someone like Romney running against Biden would win in a landslide. What are the conservative issues that would snag independents?

A Reagan like solution on the Border. There are two separate and distinct issues. One is how to enforce immigration laws. The second is what to do with long time undocumented residents. Biden should have clamped down on the border and worked for some kind of amnesty for those already here. And, FGS, stop buying this mostly fabricated asylum claim made by illegals.

There are still a few people now who are upset by same sex marriage. That said. Letting 6'4" men declare they are women and compete in women's weight lifting is bullshit. The overwhelming majority of Americans know this and they hate it.

We have to save Social Security. Why? Because fellow lab rats, it is superb for big business. A what is minimal cost, it creates a huge market. It takes care of the elderly who, especially with the large number of voters over 50 who realize that it is all they have. 35% of the population but a far higher percentage of voters. But think about it. It is good for business in another way. We have virtually absolved business from any responsibility for providing for retirement for its employees.

Strong military flexing its global muscles has always impressed Americans. A conservative would back Ukraine and slap the US puppet Israel down, albeit quietly.

Individual rights plays well. Get the government out of the bedroom and the gun room. Sensible gun laws play very well with the majority of people and are consistent with conservative values. What is not good is the "carry a gun in church" bullshit.

Leave women alone. Do something about abortion for sure. A prevention movement based upon factors that lead to abortion in the first place would play very well.

If I was running for President I would construct a message that welds the first and second amendments together. It would be easy to co-opt the gun nuts/evangelicals into supporting all sorts of free speech rights.

And for fuck sake, break up the monopolies that are destroying the middle class. Amazon first among them.

I could go on.

Trump is winning on one thing. He is directly appealing to people who are losing their piece of the pie. He is not helping them one bit but he has constructed a big tent full of malcontents who do not realize that at the root of their problem is a wildly skewed distribution of wealth. He has taken that energy and focused it on guns, gays and God. So what if Christians in big numbers would shoot immigrants at the border?

Both parties bought the scourge of MAGA with money they raised from the oligarchs. Odd isn't?

This conviction won't matter much I fear. We have a billionaire who has been allowed to run on being a victim of the system. I hope it clarifies in the minds of independents exactly who they are voting for but between gerrymandering and that aforementioned big tent I am far from confident. And unless the democrats make a case for the people in that tent to trust them with their very real concerns..... I mean seriously. High school age boys being allowed to use the girls restroom? Give me a break.

That is correct. The "basic of the basic" conservative ideas would be extremely popular right now and McCain or Romney would demolish Biden in a landslide that hasn't been seen in a while considering the inflation and the appropriatness of the message to the current times. All would be in favour of a "basic" old school conservative candidate winning but MAGA poisoned the well so to speak and are not allowing the basic message. They have to propose their own shit because well its their shit and not basic conservative message. But I can make you feel a bit better about this by pointing out that UK was actually in the same situation but Conservatives actually managed to do some actual real real damage with Brexit on top of everything. So its not that bad for your camp and there might be a future.

You will actually have to fight to fix it, well, you in person and conservatives as a collective. The main chance will come IF (Very likely if) Trump looses the election. Because then the Republicans will fracture and the party will be up for reformation and rebranding along with the people in it.

[RealPolitic]

@Drlee

MAGA Republicans have done a lot of damage to the Republican party. They have scared off people that in the past might have voted Republican. MAGA just needs to go away for the Republican party to have any real future in American politics.

[Unthinking Majority]

Very true. There is also a GoP civil war of sorts going on.

Also, TRump keeps running his mouth, and it gets him into more trouble. He's a lawyer's worst nightmare.

BUt no no no no! It's the deep state!

America needs someone with Trump's balls and Bernie Sanders' integrity.

[Rancid]

WRT GOP at large. Republicans in competitive districts are trying to stay quiet as they been put in a tough spot by the dear leader. Basically, if they call all of this a sham, they will lose the "independents" they need. If they even put out a bland statement like "we should respect the process", they will get heat from Trump and MAGA and lose on that end.

"but but but deep state!"

When an asshole is an asshole as long as Trump has been an asshole. Shit is bound to come back and bite you in the ass. Likewise, when you play the middle with an asshole like Trump, you are bound to get fucked in the ass too for having no conviction and being a spineless weasel.

[JohnRawls]

WRT GOP at large. Republicans in competitive districts are trying to stay quiet as they been put in a tough spot by the dear leader. Basically, if they call all of this a sham, they will lose the "independents" they need. If they even put out a bland statement like "we should respect the process", they will get heat from Trump and MAGA and lose on that end.

"but but but deep state!"

When an asshole is an asshole as long as Trump has been an asshole. Shit is bound to come back and bite you in the ass. Likewise, when you play the middle with an asshole like Trump, you are bound to get fucked in the ass too for having no conviction and being a spineless weasel.

Trump has been uncharacteristically quiet on the subject but he will fuck up eventually. Its Trump we are talking about here. And when he does it is going to be a catastrophe for him. Will it happen soon or in Biden vs Trump debate or whatever. Get your popcorn ready. His team and lawyers can't chain him to the nearest post all the time.

I wonder if they have a "secretary" running after him taking away his mobile phone or access to any social media while gagging him when he is speaking to journalists.

[Rancid]

And when he does it is going to be a catastrophe for him.

I'm going to disagree here. There is no bottom. Just look at our pofo Trumpsters, continuing to go down the bottomless rabbit hole with excuse after excuse for the last 8-ish years. I disagree in that there isn't going to be some magical turning point where everything just comes crashing down for Trump. This is precisely why people need to get out and vote against him. It's the last line of defense against authoritarianism, against the erosion of democratic principals, against the normalization of political violence (.. before our resident deep staters say anything, this is well documented and verified by the FBI and various researchers), etc.

At this point, what we need to see, is massive Republican losses in 2024. They are far far too spineless to shake this off, so they have to be handed a big enough loss that they are forced to grow a pair of balls and a little integrity for once.

I wonder if they have a "secretary" running after him taking away his mobile phone or access to any social media while gagging him when he is speaking to journalists.

This has been a constant problem going back to when he was President. During his administration, many of his advisors keep trying to take his phone away so he doesn't say dumb shit on Twitter. However, he's Trump so he can sic his MAGA sycophants who are willing to commit political violence on his behalf on to even those that are/were most loyal to him. Trump has been very good at having this sort of vague threat of violence that he can plausibly deny.

[SpecialOlympian]

This is good for Trump. Golf is boring. Golf is for gross old white losers.

Who wouldn't rather bust a nut into a pornstar at a golf game than actually watch dipshits in ankle high socks and stupid hats with fuzzy balls on the top swing sticks at balls? Trump is so cool.

[SpecialOlympian]

As far as I'm concerned, this entire trial was about one thing and one thing only: "Did Trump fuck the hottest girl at the golf expo?"

And he did. He nailed her so hard she could build a career off saying it was gross to fuck him. Flabbergasted liberals who can't accept the fact that Trump has a beautiful, uncircumsized penis keep demanding we put Trump in prison because they want to mutilate their children. It really tells you who they are.

[RealPolitic]

Trump still has sentencing. LOCK HIM UP! LOCK HIM UP! LOCK HIM UP!

[noemon]

@Istanbuller

You are operating out of extreme bad faith when you talk about "democracy" in how you speak of it.

In 2020, the democratic process played out as it should. However, once Trump lost (which he never conceded), he actively tried to over throw the government. How is that democracy?

Being a sore loser does not mean that "he tried to overthrow the government". You see tanks when someone is trying to overthrow the government. You see sore losers all the time in every place.

Your whole premise is so full of shit dude.

That's what this premise you are arguing for is indeed.

My overall point is that if you are going to do that, then you have no right to try and get elected again, because you are clearly not in support of the democratic process. INstead, you seek to destroy it. It's really that simple, yet... somehow.. you and others don't get it.

Your overall point is that you got Trump for misclassifying(not even non-declaring) an NDA, one of thousands.

And you act like you got him for treason.

Now, this is rather poignant.

It takes some religion and then some. But that's not the real issue, the real issue is that your outrage is not convincing anybody except for those who are already convinced and who are not enough for the Democrats to win again. So you got a real problem that will not go away just with outrage.

The hilarity here is that, if Trump never did that, he'd probably have a REALLY REALLY good chance of getting elected in 2024. In that hypothetical timeline, I'd still think he's an ass, but I wouldn't be against him appearing on the ballots again. IN my eyes, the cardinal and unforgivable sin is Jan 6th and all the coercion of state governments to overturn results. It is disappointing that so many forget this basic hard and indisputable fact. A fact that clearly demonstrates this person is not compatible with democratic ideas. This isn't even hearsay, it is in video, audio, and witnessed by his inner circle (i.e. not democrats). Yet..... here we are with some of you.

Separate from that, it should be of no surprise that a piece of shit like that, would get into all sorts of other legal trouble, like his rape trial, and these illegal business activity crimes he was found guilty of (which some of you are just excusing and excusing). Still, that is besides the point. Fact is, he is a traitor and shouldn't be allowed to run due his past actions of trying to overthrow the government.
Fuck trump
"oh no no no, but the deep state!... you're a bot!"
The amount of inconsistent trash some of you are spewing is incredible.

You just rehash the usual standard tropes and not any actual political argument, drowning Trump in legalese is a chicken & egg situation highlighting the deep state at work, this is fairly eye-poppingly obvious and relevant because that's all there is and it is quite unbecoming for the American democracy to be engaging in this against a former President quite shamelessly and for the wrong reasons because if this was a pursuit of justice we would be seeing different kinds of prosecutions like for crimes against humanity for example.

Eventually the Democrats will have to move past this into actual politics but the deep state isn't letting anybody talk politics as it is in permanent legal battle with Trump and is only looking to cancel him.

This is now beyond desperate and it is very obvious too.

Eventually, the Democrats and the rather mindless apolitical libs who support them will bring the entire country down as they go head first towards civil war.

If you treat half the country as criminals, you can expect the same.

[Rancid]

Trump still has sentencing. LOCK HIM UP! LOCK HIM UP! LOCK HIM UP!

Apparently he just claimed he never said "Lock her up" with Clinton?

Is he losing his mind? Does he think his followers have short memories (recall, they made t-shirts and signs with that phrase)? Does he think they are that loyal (read: stupid) and will parrot another lie for him?

Hard to know, but when its this in your face, this ridiculous, and you still can't see it? God have mercy on your soul I guess.

For the record, I'm all for locking up Clinton and Trump. A great win for all.

[RealPolitic]

@Rancid


When the Republicans say the justice system is being weaponized, I call that projection. The only people that is weaponizing the justice system is the Republicans. They thought the justice system could never really be applied to them. They think the justice system should apply to everybody else but them. It is the Republicans who want to be above the law and have a strong sense of entitlement to do whatever they want to do without accountability. Look at how the January 6 insurrections just walked on the capital grounds with this strong sense of entitlement like they owned the place and attacked our democracy, our constitution, our freedoms, our way of life, and the rule of law.

When Trump says "if they can do this to me, they can do it to you!" What he means by that is "if they can hold me legitimately accountable for the crimes I really committed as a wealthy privileged white man, they can hold all you other rich wealthy white folks accountable too. It means we are not above the law and as wealthy privileged white males, we can't have that. The law was never supposed to apply to us."

Trump deserves a few decades in prison. You and I both know if we did the same things that Trump did, they would have locked us up and threw away the key and we wouldn't see the light of day until the next 20 or 30 years. We also would have been branded traitors too. It must be nice to be a rich white wealthy guy.

Imagine if Black Lives Mattered did the same thing as the January 6 insurrections. They would have given more serious time to them than they did with those entitled white folks who just walked on the capital grounds like they owned the place.

[noemon]

BLM did far worse and nothing happened to them, nor did anyone call it an "insurrection".

In Greece and in France we have far more protesting for nothing as well and nobody calls it an insurrection either.

Insisting on such nonsense only highlights the desperation.

[Rich]

Wrong. If anything, it's the sign of a mature, functioning democracy since it shows nobody's above the law.

No it doesn't. This conviction has nothing to do with some great concern for campaign finance law. This case is utter bollocks from beginning to end. If Trump had registered the payments as campaign spending they would have prosecuted him for illegally spending campaign money. Note there is nothing right wing about my contempt for this prosecution. I opposed the legal warfare against Bill Clinton and totally opposed the idea that Hillary should go to jail.

Politicians should be removed through the ballot box not the courts. Leaders should not be separately elected, but should be selected by the parliament /council and recallable by the elected representatives. It seems there is no thing the Americans can do that is too stupid for us in Britain not to want to copy it. In Britain Parliamentary leaders are now selected by the party membership's this is a very bad thing and contributes to governmental dysfunction. Some people cling on to the belief that Jesus is going to return despite all evidence to the contry. Similarly many people in the United States and without cling on to the believe that the American Founders were wise geniuses.

[Rugoz]

No it doesn't. This conviction has nothing to do with some great concern for campaign finance law.

Whether the motivation is a "great concern for campaign finance law" is irrelevant.

If Trump had registered the payments as campaign spending they would have prosecuted him for illegally spending campaign money.

In 2011 John Edwards was prosecuted for spending $1m to hide his affair before the election. The jury was deadlocked and it ended in a mistrial.

But it Trump's case, AFAIK, the crime to be concealed must not be proven beyond reasonable doubt. What matters is Trump's intent. Whether he intended to conceal the campaign financing (or any other crime) by falsifying business records (which is the actual crime committed).

This case is utter bollocks from beginning to end.

Everybody who says this simply doesn't understand it.

I opposed the legal warfare against Bill Clinton and totally opposed the idea that Hillary should go to jail.

If the Trump administration found anything prosecutable, they would have prosecuted.

Politicians should be removed through the ballot box not the courts.

Well the conviction won't stop him from running.

But for what it's worth, I do agree with that in principle. Felons should be allowed to vote and run for office. Not that the GOP would agree with that .

The GOP is pretty much the anti-democracy party at this point. They ban electoral reform and limit direct democratic rights wherever they can.

[Rancid]

The GOP is pretty much the anti-democracy party at this point.

This sums it up.

[SpecialOlympian]

Like there is a good point that bribing a porn star not to talk about how you cheated on your pregnant, third wife is kind of a legitimate campaign expense. But also, Trump is just kind of a moron who surrounds himself with idiots who can't carrry out the most basic, not even financial fraud, but basic procedures for doing what he did legally. There was a legal option for what he did and got nailed on.

The producers of The Apprentice literally chose him because he was a bankrupt clown, and they thought it was funny. People outside of New York didn't get that, and thought it was serious.

But if I'm voting for Trump because he's a Really Smart Business Man, shouldn't he be able to do things like bribe people legally? Like, that's not a political thing: that's just basic business acumen. He could have done this all legally, but he's cheap and stupid and uninvolved with the crimes he commits, which makes him a bad manager. I just figure bribery is a normal part of dealing in New York City real estate, which you would think he should be competent at.

Like, yeah, I agree the case was bullshit. I also think Trump was incompetent in the way he handled it. You can hold both of these ideas in your head at the same time, and come away with the perception that Trump is still an idiot who is bad at running his own empire, much less the Presidency. All he needed to do was not cheap out on his lawyer's bills, something he has done repeatedly to disastrous results. That's just not good leadership to me.

He hired lawyers so incompetent they didn't even ask for a jury trial in one of his cases, something he does because he just refuses to spend money on good legal counsel. That's fucking stupid. And when you hold him up as a Strong, Brave, Leader of Men it just makes you look stupid to keep excusing all the penny ante mistakes Trump makes because he absolutely refuses to allow anyone with any competency in any area of expertise do shit for him. There wouldn't be a case if he'd had good legal counsel!