[wat0n]

One would need to ask the Israelis to define "eradicate". But even then, how would letting Hamas stay in Rafah advance that goal?

Of course, if "eradicate" means destroying an ideology then it is indeed a dead-end. But making it sure Hamas or similar groups can't govern? That is possible.

[Potemkin]

But they didn't. You've can't deny it the Jews sure are good at selling the big lie.

Look I'm no expert on Jewish history, but I know there were huge diaspora communities long before Bar Kokhba. As I say I'm not an expert so I can't say anything definitive but the Jews of Palestine may well have been a minority of the Jews in the world, before Herod's ass so much as touched the Judean throne. Judaism as we know it really begins with Josiah. He centralised the religion, tore down the high places. This was when the Deuteronomic law was created and the Deuteronomic history written. However Judaism was a total failure as a native religion.

Judaism was an aggressive, racist, genocidal, expansionist, militarist religion. Well what's wrong with that? The problem was that Judea was a tiny backwards shithole of a state that seemed to think it was a super power. They just kept losing. To the Babylonians, to Alexander, to the Seleucids and then twice to the Romans. When Jews had wise leaders and allied themselves with a great power they did well, but their God Yahweh had serious delusions of grandeur. Their God Yahweh, a celestial nobody seemed to think he was the creator of the universe. The Judeans were the ancient version of the Islamic State. Fanatical millenarism is all very well, but needs to be tempered with some level of realism, or it will all end in tears.

But while Judaism failed as a native religion, it proved absolutely brilliant as a diaspora religion. Its uncompromising separatism and superiorism stopped it from being assimilated. Its extreme racist superiorism, its emphasis on health and discipline of the individual, the loyalty of the individual to the Jewish community, but above all else its strong emphasis on literacy and the cultivation of the intellect allowed Jews to occupy a huge share of the non manual middle class positions in Ancient / Medieval societies. Under Christianity and Islam, where thinking for one self was a crime punishable by death, it thrived even better.

Okay then, everybody started it, which is the same thing as saying that nobody started it. Happy now?

But if you want to select an arbitrary starting point (and this, after all, is what ‘history’ is), then the Roman expulsion of the Jews from their own land is as good a place as any, and better than most.

[Saeko]

[Pants-of-dog]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/6 ... d-by-hamas

[QatzelOk]

You’re seriously claiming that the fact that the Jewish people were expelled from Judea by the Romans has nothing to do with Zionism, the project to reverse what the Romans had done by repopulating that same territory with Jews?

Um... those aren't the same type of "Jews" and you know it.

One of the reasons Rome would reject Judaism as a religion is that it is so racist, and Rome was a multi-cultural empire.

Another reason is that Judaism is a form of ideational slavery, which wasn't really that popular of a worldview until Christianity and Islam added other ideationally-restricting mental straight-jackets to large swaths of the world.

And just like Judaism, Christianity's main contribution to human history is genocide.

[wat0n]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/6/text-of-the-ceasefire-proposal-approved-by-hamas

Offering to release hostages "dead or alive" doesn't sound too good and suggests Hamas is not being honest about how many hostages it can actually release.

[Saeko]

[Pants-of-dog]

The number of people arrested and detained by the Israeli government without trial or being charged is now.over 2000.

With the many cases of torture and abuse of detainees, this is not only a war crime but also a direct threat to democracy in Israel.

[Rich]

(My ordering and emphasis) But if you want to select an arbitrary starting point (and this, after all, is what ‘history’ is), then the Roman expulsion of the Jews from their own land is as good a place as any, and better than most.

Okay then, everybody started it, which is the same thing as saying that nobody started it. Happy now?

Leaving aside complex questions as to the state of my being at the time of first reading your post, I'll address the question, "Am I fully satisfied yet, that my point has been fully understood and accepted? ". The answer is most definitely no.

A Jewish diaspora existed for several centuries before the fall of the Second Temple, and their dwelling in other countries for the most part was not a result of compulsory dislocation.

The creation of the Jewish diaspora was not for the most part due to compulsory dislocation. To which I would add that the sustainment of the Jewish diaspora was not for the most part due to an inability to return. I would also add that for the most part the de-Israeliteification and the de-Judification of Palestine was not for the most part due to displacement.

In the main Jews lived in the diaspora because they liked being aliens in other people's countries and living in their own separate apartheid ghettos, because their racist ideology allowed them to occupy a disproportionate number of the non manual and professional positions in these ancient / medieval economies.

Jews in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries made hugely disproportionate contributions to their host countries economies, to their societies, to science, to technology and to culture. Jews in Ancient and Medieval societies did not. Life in the Ancient and Medieval world was largely a zero sum game.

[QatzelOk]

I can't help wondering if this Israeli atrocity isn't just a way to take attention away from all the people dying of their over-priced, mandatory vaccines.

That's how a fabricated news cycle works, after all. And it protects sponsors.

[skinster]

:lol:

Israel was founded by socialists, if anything.

Yeah, socialists like those Nazi socialists in the few years before the Israeli colony was created.

Said by the person who denies the evidence even when laid bare

You have not presented evidence to back anything you say up. You're the guy who keeps saying "I told you!", "I proved this" but never have anything beyond your opinion to go by. And since Zionists are compulsive liars, as they commit genocide or defend it, your opinion is worth, basically nothing.

No, it was not.

And this still doesn't mean Russian briefers work for free.

The meeting Aaron Mate attended was one of these that the United Nations holds so I assume now that your position suggests the United Nations bribes investigative journalists to speak at their institution's meetings? Let me remind you in case you got confused - since lying regularly might make you forget what you say - you were pretending to like the United Nations a few pages ago...

Still, you have no evidence of this bribe or payment. But that wasn't even the debate. Your first claim was "The Grayzone editors are funded by the Kremlin" and has so far...resulted in this shit. Since this is going back and forth for the fourth time now, what can only be called your made-up-bullshit, we can leave this here or we can carry on with me pointing out you're full of shit when you're unable to back up what you say. And you seem tired by this debate too since your responses have got to one-liners and suggests you're suffering lying fatigue again. Your call. Prove your claim or shut up.

Finkelstein is a joke himself, but no, he wasn't being satirical.

Finkelstein is a renowned scholar and political scientist and has wrote some excellent books on Palestine and the hasbara industry, the latter of which might explain why you dislike him. The funny thing with Zionists' beef with him is they, to date, have never been able to prove any of his claims incorrect.

And, you don't know if he was or wasn't being satirical since the link you shared is broken and you still claim you are making an argument using that broken link. If anyone's a joke here..

The fact that the cop even had to do that, telling a Jew to stop being Jewish, should tell you enough.

The cop clearly meant to say Zionist instead of Jewish but that doesn't take away from the fact that Gideon Falter is a Zionist provocateur who works for an organisation created to distract from Israel's rampage in Gaza in 2014, attacked left-leaning Labour supporters under Corbyn and claimed the party was systemically antisemitic without evidence.

Sky News published not just the soundbite but the whole 13 minutes clip of the interaction and it shows Falter is a disingenuous prick and the cop tells him the same too (except the 'prick' part). He's also surrounded by a handful of others who have been outed as Mossad-linked security. This boy who cried wolf story died down shortly after...

Zionists stop playing victim while supporting a genocide challenge - it doesn't work.

I already did. And just like with the Palestinian Constitution, you will just shrug it off for no reason.

No, you didn't. You're lying again. You have yet to show what you attributed to a Palestinian Constitution from a Palestinian source. If you can't prove this like you can't prove a lot of what you say, give it up.

It is not necessary to be overly verbose when you will just deny everything. I would also think you'd be fine with it since your brain is rotten by Twitter.

I'm not asking you to be verbose, I'm asking you to post evidence to support your position. In fact, that'd always be preferable over your dog-shit evidence-free one-liners that only ever amount to your dog-shit evidence-free opinion.

She was killed in crossfire.

She

Looks like you got tired of lying quickly at this one.

Shireen Abu Akleh was not killed in crossfire. That was the first lie the Zionist terrorist army made up after executing her, until it was proven, by Forensic Architecture, that the Israeli army shot the journalist who was reporting on the Israelis invading a refugee camp in the West Bank. Zionists just lie as they breathe and you prove it over and over again.. I wonder what justification you have for when the terrorist army attacked mourners on the hospital grounds from where they were carrying her casket. And before you regurgitate on behalf of your masters in the Israeli military and state, all their lies were exposed here, including by Shireen's brother.


Since it doesn't work for me, maybe a screenshot will work?

It still works for me.

Maybe this one of Zionists attacking Christians works.


Or this.


Stop pretending this stuff is new. I'm sure you've had to defend against this indefensible too, with that job you have...

I recall one such incident, then a longer clip surfaced and it turned out those Haredi Jews - who are not necessarily even Zionist - had been insulted first. Are we talking about the same thing?

No, we're not. I'm not sure what that thing you made up is about. When will you learn to share more than your opinion? When people say they believe Zionists lie as they breathe, you should offer up a bit more than your opinion because I file it all under lies until proven otherwise..

And this is why I say you're gaslighting.

In the world of Zionists, asking for evidence for claims = gaslighting.

You said Hamas oppress Christians and I'm asking you for evidence of this. So far, you have none.

Oh so it's Israel fault that for example (from the same source):

The same - dodgy, given its funders - source starts with what I said: the economic blockade of Gaza by Israel is what drove some Christians out of Gaza, not Hamas, like you claimed. Besides, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh condemned the killing and said the Islamist movement "would not allow anyone to sabotage" Muslim-Christian relations.

But yes, the oppression of Christians in Palestine is the fault of the colonialists who do not discriminate in their oppression when it comes to Palestinians. Non-Muslim Palestinians are also oppressed by Zionists because Zionists simply hate Palestinians for existing on land they want.

If anything, sanctions are expanding.

The sanctions you were initially referring to were reversed and this new story of sanctions against two fundraisers of extremists settlers doesn't really make your case for you. Zionists and the Yankees are generally on the same page so playing victim for extremists who might get sanctioned, and then not, isn't really an interesting defence of Zionism on your behalf. Next...

Weird, you were saying any Palestinian leadership would be shunned. That is manifestly not true.

Quote where I said that, liar.

The Palestinians support the resistance factions which include Hamas, parts of Fatah and the socialist orgs. They hate the PA though because the PA are anti-democratic snakes who serve the West and Zionism.

It is too early to know exactly what is it that Hamas agreed to and if it's the same thing Israel agreed to. I never said there was a cessation of fire, by the way, only that Hamas said it agreed to one coincidentally just as Israel is making a move on Rafah and specifically the border with Egypt.

It's not a coincidence that Hamas agreed to a ceasefire proposal to end the war, exchange the hostages, allow the displaced to return to different parts of Gaza and allow for reconstruction. Zionists were already moving in Rafah for weeks.

The fact Israelis are protesting also contradicts your narrative that there is no center or anything to the left of it in Israel. In reality, Israelis are really pissed at Netanyahu and his ilk, and rightly so. Netanyahu understands this and is trying to lengthen the war as much as possible, indeed I think we can both agree about this. Yet he can only go so far, and he can certainly not keep it up until the next scheduled election in 2026...

It is not my narrative that there is no left in Israel, Zionism as an ideology is a fascistic ideology based on ethnosupremacy and racism, land theft, ethnic cleansing and genocide. You may recall a similar ideology like it about six decades ago..

In Israel there is the extreme right who want to do nothing but destroy Palestinians further and steal the entire country and the other right which are willing to sit around and ignore that they have a concentration camp under their rule and millions of other segregated under its military rule if the victims of both don't make any noise, who are willing to go back to ignoring them - as they did pre Oct 7 - if they get their hostages back.

Besides, a lot of those protesting Netanyahu want people in power who are further to the right of him, the apocalyptic Zionists like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir. Netanyahu is, as usual, concerned about his role and maintaining his job because he knows as soon as the war ends, he'll have to start dealing with those four corruption charges against him and head to jail..

...But, I think there is also a consensus in Israel that Hamas should not remain ruling Gaza after this.

Nobody gives a fuck what Zionists think about Hamas or who rules Palestinians. Palestinians will be ruled by the people they vote for.

Whether Biden agrees or not is another matter, as things stand Netanyahu is actually Hamas' best hope since committing to two states would lead to the deployment of an international peacekeeping force in Gaza as has been offered to his government since the early phases of the war, and that means Hamas would be toppled with Western and Sunni Arab blessing.

You are living in complete fantasy land. That fantasy starts with the Two State delusion which Netanyahu's Likud Party rejected in its 1977 charter and has never deviated from. In fact, Netanyahu and all the major Knesset members reiterated their rejection for Palestinians to have sovereignty over their land in the last few months after the delusional Two State nonsense was brought to light again amongst Western politicians who were attempting to appease their own public.

Zionists need to give up the fantasy that Hamas are going anywhere because their popularity has grown since October 7, not diminished. And that also includes in the West. In most other parts of the world Hamas are celebrated for resisting racist settler-colonialism.

You’re seriously claiming that the fact that the Jewish people were expelled from Judea by the Romans has nothing to do with Zionism, the project to reverse what the Romans had done by repopulating that same territory with Jews?

This isn’t about exonerating anyone. It’s about understanding the historical roots of our present situation. If we refuse to understand history, then we are condemned to repeat it.

Okay, so you’ve finally accepted that the Romans started the whole thing. And calling it “created an initial condition” is something of an understatement. It was ethnic cleansing on a massive scale. Zionism was created specifically to reverse that “initial condition”, which of course would also involve ethnic cleansing on a massive scale.

This has got to be the most batshit justification for Zionism, which is a racist Western ideology of settler-colonialism of the modern era.

The number of people arrested and detained by the Israeli government without trial or being charged is now.over 2000.

With the many cases of torture and abuse of detainees, this is not only a war crime but also a direct threat to democracy in Israel.

1. Ethnosupremacists don't do democracy.

2. The number of Palestinians who have been detained under 'administrative detention', which basically means imprisoned without any charges against them, is over 3000 today. In total, about 10,000 Palestinians are in Israeli dungeons now. Before October 7 it was about 6000 - 7000 and charges against them were for drawing Palestinian flags on their faces in class and other such..."crimes".


3. The reports of torture and murder in the Israeli dungeons are increasingly horrific but have been a permanent fixture in occupied Palestine since the country was colonized. Prisoners who've been released refer to the prisons as "cemeteries of the living" and it's believable, given the testimonies I've been reading of those who've been released.

Are you trying to claim October 7 was a form of legitimate resistance, @Pants-of-dog?

Of course it is. Western laws also consider armed resistance by the occupied against those occupying them as legitimate. So does the next superpower. So do like...most of the world.

That's a loaded question since there's no genocide.

Israel is at the world court with a "plausible" case of committing genocide and:

Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians and it’s not just my opinion, it’s the opinion of the scholars of genocide and state crime who, at various moments in this current crisis have come out and said very clearly that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians.

There have been numerous legal scholars, like the Center for Constitutional Rights who have issued legal opinions on this and are saying the same thing. Craig Mokhiber’s resignation letter from the UN referred to this as a ‘text-book case of genocide’. Raz Segal came out very early in the massacre to refer to this also as a ‘textbook case of genocide’ and he’s a Jewish genocide scholar.

You had over 800 genocide scholars pen a letter saying the exact same thing. You had 47 state crime scholars come out and say Israel is practicing the ‘annihilation phase of genocide’against Palestinians. The legal and scholarly consensus is very much that Israel is practicing genocide and genocide, we know, is a legal definition under two international treaties and it’s clearly defined, and if we apply what is happening right now and assess whether or not it meets the legal threshold, it certainly does.

As you said, we’ve seen dozens and dozens and dozens of statements of genocidal intent at the highest levels of Israel’s military and government and we’ve also seen multiple genocidal acts. The deprivation of food and water alone to an entire people who are caged, who have no other way of getting food and water, even if Israel didn’t drop a single airstrike on Gaza, that policy alone is genocidal. They’re starving people to death, and in fact people have already starved to death, they have already been dehydrated to death. It was the director of Al-Shifa hospital who said in a statement that people were ‘screaming from thirst’. The UN World Food Programme also warned of an ‘immediate possibility of starvation’. That’s a genocidal act - leaving aside the indiscriminate uninterrupted bombardment that has pulverised Gaza, that has destroyed half the buildings in Gaza. Leaving that completely aside.

So Israel has committed multiple genocidal acts with the requisite genocidal intent and that’s all you need to make a showing of genocide. I think part of the reluctance to label it as such comes from people in the public discourse who are getting their information from pundits - who don’t even know what genocide - is they don’t realise that it’s a legal definition, they think it’s an opinion they can have, and then they spout that misinformation.

The legal analysis points clearly to genocide. I’m a lawyer, I look at the treaties and I look at the texts and I apply the law to the facts and when you do that you can only reach one conclusion and that is that Israel is committing genocide in this moment. The point is not to just say that Israel is committing genocide - of course it is - but what is all of this a part of? This genocide is the latest form of colonial domination and oppression that Israel is exercising against a people that it has been ethnically cleansing from their homes for over 75 years. It’s the latest tool of oppression and that’s what we really need to be talking about.

[wat0n]

Yeah, socialists like those Nazi socialists in the few years before the Israeli colony was created.

The ones who fought the Nazis you mean?

Or you mean like the Soviets who tried to join the Axis?

You have not presented evidence to back anything you say up. You're the guy who keeps saying "I told you!", "I proved this" but never have anything beyond your opinion to go by. And since Zionists are compulsive liars, as they commit genocide or defend it, your opinion is worth, basically nothing.

We have seen how you change the goalposts for whatever evidence you demand of Hamas atrocities.

And yes that includes denying actual footage.

The meeting Aaron Mate attended was one of these that the United Nations holds so I assume now that your position suggests the United Nations bribes investigative journalists to speak at their institution's meetings? Let me remind you in case you got confused - since lying regularly might make you forget what you say - you were pretending to like the United Nations a few pages ago...

Still, you have no evidence of this bribe or payment. But that wasn't even the debate. Your first claim was "The Grayzone editors are funded by the Kremlin" and has so far...resulted in this shit. Since this is going back and forth for the fourth time now, what can only be called your made-up-bullshit, we can leave this here or we can carry on with me pointing out you're full of shit when you're unable to back up what you say. And you seem tired by this debate too since your responses have got to one-liners and suggests you're suffering lying fatigue again. Your call. Prove your claim or shut up.

So you do believe Russia's UN briefers work for free. Prove this.

Finkelstein is a renowned scholar and political scientist and has wrote some excellent books on Palestine and the hasbara industry, the latter of which might explain why you dislike him. The funny thing with Zionists' beef with him is they, to date, have never been able to prove any of his claims incorrect.

And, you don't know if he was or wasn't being satirical since the link you shared is broken and you still claim you are making an argument using that broken link. If anyone's a joke here..

Finkelstein is not "renowned" outside anti-Israel and now it seems Holocaust denying circles. Even then, his only somewhat notable work was one showing there had been Palestinians in the 19th century to debunk a pro-Israel talking point in the 1980s, which is hardly revolutionary.

The cop clearly meant to say Zionist instead of Jewish but that doesn't take away from the fact that Gideon Falter is a Zionist provocateur who works for an organisation created to distract from Israel's rampage in Gaza in 2014, attacked left-leaning Labour supporters under Corbyn and claimed the party was systemically antisemitic without evidence.

Sky News published not just the soundbite but the whole 13 minutes clip of the interaction and it shows Falter is a disingenuous prick and the cop tells him the same too (except the 'prick' part). He's also surrounded by a handful of others who have been outed as Mossad-linked security. This boy who cried wolf story died down shortly after...

Zionists stop playing victim while supporting a genocide challenge - it doesn't work.

The cop said "Jewish".

The footage doesn't make your case at all. Why would he be in danger for passing by a pro-Palestine protest?

No, you didn't. You're lying again. You have yet to show what you attributed to a Palestinian Constitution from a Palestinian source. If you can't prove this like you can't prove a lot of what you say, give it up.

This is an example of the denial I mentioned before.

You can't even accept what the Palestinian Constitution says, even when posted by an academic group, because it doesn't conform to whatever idiotic views you have about Palestinians.

I'm not asking you to be verbose, I'm asking you to post evidence to support your position. In fact, that'd always be preferable over your dog-shit evidence-free one-liners that only ever amount to your dog-shit evidence-free opinion.

I already did that, yet you still pretend no evidence was posted. Very much like PoD, actually.

Typical weasel bullshit.

Looks like you got tired of lying quickly at this one.

Shireen Abu Akleh was not killed in crossfire. That was the first lie the Zionist terrorist army made up after executing her, until it was proven, by Forensic Architecture, that the Israeli army shot the journalist who was reporting on the Israelis invading a refugee camp in the West Bank. Zionists just lie as they breathe and you prove it over and over again.. I wonder what justification you have for when the terrorist army attacked mourners on the hospital grounds from where they were carrying her casket. And before you regurgitate on behalf of your masters in the Israeli military and state, all their lies were exposed here, including by Shireen's brother.

Forensic Architecture, those incompetent guys who tried to claim Al Ahli was bombed by Israel?

And then you preemptively just deny the opposing evidence. Cool.

It still works for me.

Maybe this one of Zionists attacking Christians works.

Did you notice the guy who did the Nazi salute as they were walking?

Or this.


Stop pretending this stuff is new. I'm sure you've had to defend against this indefensible too, with that job you have...

Why would the priest threaten to call the cops?

I don't find it surprising there are religious assholes in Jerusalem. That includes the guys from Neturei Karta, and those who call women dressed "immodestly" (i.e. normally for Western standards) whores when they are careless enough to walk in their neighborhoods. But they're good to you, because they are anti-Zionists.

But if you really believe this is even remotely comparable to being murdered for their religion without any punishment by the authorities, as it has happened to Christians in Gaza...

No, we're not. I'm not sure what that thing you made up is about. When will you learn to share more than your opinion? When people say they believe Zionists lie as they breathe, you should offer up a bit more than your opinion because I file it all under lies until proven otherwise..

Have you ever shared anything but your opinion? And yes, that was the clip I was thinking about - where a guy taunts them with a Nazi salute.

In the world of Zionists, asking for evidence for claims = gaslighting.

You said Hamas oppress Christians and I'm asking you for evidence of this. So far, you have none.

Denying evidence was provided when it actually was is textbook gaslighting.

The same - dodgy, given its funders - source starts with what I said: the economic blockade of Gaza by Israel is what drove some Christians out of Gaza, not Hamas, like you claimed. Besides, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh condemned the killing and said the Islamist movement "would not allow anyone to sabotage" Muslim-Christian relations.

But yes, the oppression of Christians in Palestine is the fault of the colonialists who do not discriminate in their oppression when it comes to Palestinians. Non-Muslim Palestinians are also oppressed by Zionists because Zionists simply hate Palestinians for existing on land they want.

You forgot all the other information there, which is far more important than the blockade everyone else is affected by and which was proven to be justified. Also, now that you mention the blockade, it's interesting they have even be allowed to leave the "open-air prison" you know?

And the University of Notre Dame is affiliated to the Catholic Church.

The sanctions you were initially referring to were reversed and this new story of sanctions against two fundraisers of extremists settlers doesn't really make your case for you. Zionists and the Yankees are generally on the same page so playing victim for extremists who might get sanctioned, and then not, isn't really an interesting defence of Zionism on your behalf. Next...

Those sanctions haven't been reversed.

Quote where I said that, liar.

The Palestinians support the resistance factions which include Hamas, parts of Fatah and the socialist orgs. They hate the PA though because the PA are anti-democratic snakes who serve the West and Zionism.

Right, anyone will shun terrorists who attack civilians. Not surprising at all, which is why the PA is not being shunned internationally and by the West in particular.

It's not a coincidence that Hamas agreed to a ceasefire proposal to end the war, exchange the hostages, allow the displaced to return to different parts of Gaza and allow for reconstruction. Zionists were already moving in Rafah for weeks.

One where they can execute all hostages if they want, to exchange corpses for terrorists.

This is evidently unacceptable.

It is not my narrative that there is no left in Israel, Zionism as an ideology is a fascistic ideology based on ethnosupremacy and racism, land theft, ethnic cleansing and genocide. You may recall a similar ideology like it about six decades ago..

It is certainly your narrative. It's funny though, the Palestinians can have an explicit ethno-state and you don't say anything. What is it that you say? "Every accusation is a confession" or some bullshit like that. But then again this comes from their own Constitution.

And practice, too.

In Israel there is the extreme right who want to do nothing but destroy Palestinians further and steal the entire country and the other right which are willing to sit around and ignore that they have a concentration camp under their rule and millions of other segregated under its military rule if the victims of both don't make any noise, who are willing to go back to ignoring them - as they did pre Oct 7 - if they get their hostages back.

Besides, a lot of those protesting Netanyahu want people in power who are further to the right of him, the apocalyptic Zionists like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir. Netanyahu is, as usual, concerned about his role and maintaining his job because he knows as soon as the war ends, he'll have to start dealing with those four corruption charges against him and head to jail..

The Israeli far right is against any deal with Hamas, those protesting want one to get the hostages back if at all possible.

Nobody gives a fuck what Zionists think about Hamas or who rules Palestinians. Palestinians will be ruled by the people they vote for.

And Israelis will be ruled by the people they vote for.

Although if Palestinians decided to vote for governments that want to fight Israel forever, it's no wonder there will... Be war forever.

You are living in complete fantasy land. That fantasy starts with the Two State delusion which Netanyahu's Likud Party rejected in its 1977 charter and has never deviated from. In fact, Netanyahu and all the major Knesset members reiterated their rejection for Palestinians to have sovereignty over their land in the last few months after the delusional Two State nonsense was brought to light again amongst Western politicians who were attempting to appease their own public.

Zionists need to give up the fantasy that Hamas are going anywhere because their popularity has grown since October 7, not diminished. And that also includes in the West. In most other parts of the world Hamas are celebrated for resisting racist settler-colonialism.

By the left perhaps. Hamas is not popular in the West and particularly not in the US.

Among Palestinians? It seems support for Hamas increased with the war but it's coming back to the pre-war levels.

Of course it is. Western laws also consider armed resistance by the occupied against those occupying them as legitimate. So does the next superpower. So do like...most of the world.

Mass murder and rape don't count as resistance. Resistance is to fight soldiers, not murder and kidnap civilians.

Israel is at the world court with a "plausible" case of committing genocide and:

It's not, actually.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919

[skinster]

The ones who fought the Nazis you mean?

Or you mean like the Soviets who tried to join the Axis?

Zionists weren't socialists despite Zionist mythology. Nazis called themselves socialists too, but they are as much fascists as the Zionists are. Socialists don't do imperialism.

We have seen how you change the goalposts for whatever evidence you demand of Hamas atrocities.

It's you changing goalposts in this debate. You have no evidence to support your lying opinion.

So you do believe Russia's UN briefers work for free. Prove this.

When you're asked for evidence for your claims that Aaron Mate got bribed or paid by Russia or that The Grayzone are "funded by the Kremlin", it is your job to prove it. Not mine to prove anything related to your nonsense claims.

Finkelstein is not "renowned" outside anti-Israel and now it seems Holocaust denying circles. Even then, his only somewhat notable work was one showing there had been Palestinians in the 19th century to debunk a pro-Israel talking point in the 1980s, which is hardly revolutionary.

Lol at this gibberish to distract from you sharing a link that was broken claiming X without knowing what was on the page

The footage doesn't make your case at all. Why would he be in danger for passing by a pro-Palestine protest?

Yes it does. The guy is an obvious agitator and oddly the cop found out and called him out. Which is surprising because cops usually protect Zionist agitators. The times, they are a'changing...

This is an example of the denial I mentioned before.

You can't even accept what the Palestinian Constitution says, even when posted by an academic group, because it doesn't conform to whatever idiotic views you have about Palestinians.

I don't trust the Western org you shared which is why I asked for a Palestinian source supposedly about something that comes from the Palestinian Constitution which you've been unable to present after being asked repeatedly, which suggests my skepticism about that org is correct. Plus, I'm not giving compulsive liars the benefit of the doubt on stuff like this..

I already did that, yet you still pretend no evidence was posted. Very much like PoD, actually.

Typical weasel bullshit.

You have not provided a Palestinian source for that thing you and that website you brought to my attention claims is from the Palestinian Constitution. I haven't been able to find a Palestinian source for it either so I will continue to file this under 'bullshit' and either offer up the source or don't. You have repeatedly picked 'don't' but still want to talk about this for some reason.

Forensic Architecture, those incompetent guys who tried to claim Al Ahli was bombed by Israel?

And then you preemptively just deny the opposing evidence. Cool.

Forensic Architecture are headed by an Israeli architect who to date have not been caught out lying basically every day, like your sources, the IOF and Israeli government. They proved what everyone knew, the occupying army in Israel executed the journalist and the rest of us saw the same terrorists attack mourners and her casket at her funeral. You repeatedly lying about her killing in service to the genocidal state doesn't change the facts.

Did you notice the guy who did the Nazi salute as they were walking?

What a strange way to try to distract from me showing you further evidence of Christian pilgrims attacked by Zionists in the occupied Palestine.

Why would the priest threaten to call the cops?

Maybe he thought cops would protect him. They tend to protect these savages though, usually.

But if you really believe this is even remotely comparable to being murdered for their religion without any punishment by the authorities, as it has happened to Christians in Gaza...

It was never reported who killed that bookstore owner but Hamas condemned the killing and Palestinians protested it because Palestinian Christians and Muslims don't have bad blood between each other. They are equally oppressed by the Zionists though. And you're just talking this shite to distract from the fact that Zionists attack Christian Palestinians on the regular, they have destroyed Christian hospitals and churches and schools in this genocidal war on Gaza.

Here's an Arab Christian talking about Zionist oppression of people of his faith.

Have you ever shared anything but your opinion? And yes, that was the clip I was thinking about - where a guy taunts them with a Nazi salute.

I regularly share stuff that supports my position. The links in the sentences, try clicking them some times. And spare your crap about Nazi salutes when the only Nazi in this debate is you. That's what Zionists are..

Denying evidence was provided when it actually was is textbook gaslighting.

Where is your evidence Hamas oppress Christians? I am yet to see it. Did anyone else see it? Please point it in my direction if so...

You forgot all the other information there,

It is not my job to go through your (dodgy) sources. You claimed "Hamas oppress Christians" and then presented that website as evidence, quoting about a bookstore owner attack which did not prove your claim at all and I showed how one head of Hamas condemned that attack. Really, when you lie so compulsively the least you can do is scroll back up to the debate so you can remember what is actually being debated instead of me repeatedly having to explain how you're twisting things in an attempt to sound like you're not a compulsive liar while I repeatedly point out how you're doing that constant lying thing..

Also, now that you mention the blockade, it's interesting they have even be allowed to leave the "open-air prison" you know?

I didn't "now" just "mention the blockade" but mentioned it as a starting point to explain why many Christians left Gaza. They left because the Zionist imposed a savage blockade on Gaza and turned it into a concentration camp.

And no, it's not "interesting". If Palestinians can afford to get out of Gaza then they go. The Zionists are fine with that because it means they don't allow them back in and then, less Palestinians, since they would prefer that they all left. That doesn't stop Gaza from being a prison. Palestinians are not allowed to travel, visit family in the West Bank, need visas to work at all anywhere and that's still always with the worry that if they ever leave, they won't be able to return.

Those sanctions haven't been reversed.

You are sad that sanctions against two fundraisers for extremists settlers aren't reversed. Cool story.

The earlier ones you mentioned were tho. Did that make you sad too, since they were also directed at the fascists in the West Bank too?

Right, anyone will shun terrorists who attack civilians.

And that's why people protest every day against Zionists, hold encampments, are boycotting in a way that's surprised even me, etcetera.

Not surprising at all, which is why the PA is not being shunned internationally and by the West in particular.

"The Palestinian comprador's masters support their pet!"

Another cool story.

If the Palestinian Authority were popular amongst their people they would hold elections. But Palestinians see them as the traitors they are, as the co-managers of the occupation they are, who will sell out their people for money and power.

One where they can execute all hostages if they want, to exchange corpses for terrorists.

This is evidently unacceptable.

The people killing Israeli hostages are the usual suspects, the Israelis. This has been admitted by the IOF. It has been admitted by Israelis on October 7 when Israeli police and planes and tanks killed Israelis in the Kibbutz and at the festival. They killed the three captives who ran towards them waving white flags. They killed Ron Sherman and two other Israelis when the IDF pumped poisonous gas into the tunnel they were in. They killed a number of the hostages with their own bombs. Released Israeli hostages have repeatedly said they believed their own army would kill them and didn't say the same about their captors. It is not in the interest of Palestinians to kill their captives since they were using them as bargaining chips for their own hostages.

The families of hostages for the most part HATE the Israeli government today and have been protesting daily demanding an agreement to exchange all hostages. When Netanyahu and his coalition rejected the deal last week, the mother of one captive threatened to burn Tel Aviv down. Other relatives of detainees have said their government is continuing The Hannibal Directive against the hostages (AKA killing them).

You should pay more attention to what's happening with the hostages and their families. I've been reading a lot about them. They hate the state and some have come to similar conclusions like I have. About how October 7 and everything subsequent has shown how Israel is not in fact the safest place for Jews and anyone willing to put their lives on the line for a state which has proven it will leave its citizens high and dry (kidnapped) and its citizens (their families) high and dry when shit finally hits the fan.

It must be an eye-opening time for even Zionists, currently..

It is certainly your narrative.

If it's simply a narrative, and by that I assume you mean something I made up, tell me which parties anywhere close to power in Israel pass as "the left".

It's funny though, the Palestinians can have an explicit ethno-state and you don't say anything.

When did this happen?

What is it that you say? "Every accusation is a confession" or some bullshit like that. But then again this comes from their own Constitution.

Every accusation Zionists accuse Palestinians of is indeed a confession and that's been proven over and over again. But demonising and projecting their crimes on their victims, that Zionist gravy train, has run out, as the masses worldwide see Israel correctly as a pariah, as a genocidal, racist, settler colony.

And that's been good.

And Israelis will be ruled by the people they vote for.

Why do you keep debating with things I don't even say. I said Palestinians will be ruled by whoever they choose after you tried to decide for them who they can and cannot be ruled by, with your fantasies about eradicating Hamas.

Although if Palestinians decided to vote for governments that want to fight Israel forever, it's no wonder there will... Be war forever.

"want to fight"

You mean defend themselves against the settler colony that has forced them under a brutal, racist occupation.

If Israelis don't want resistance against their crimes, they could just stop committing them..

By the left perhaps. Hamas is not popular in the West and particularly not in the US.

This poll always cracks me up.

It seems support for Hamas increased with the war but it's coming back to the pre-war levels.

Mass murder and rape don't count as resistance.

They were responding to the above, as well as occupation and misery they were forced to live under. Their right to resist using armed struggle is enshrined in international laws. And there is no evidence of rape, although plenty of evidence of the IDF committing it against Palestinian men, women and children, since the start of the theft of Palestine to this day.

Every accusation is a confession

Resistance is to fight soldiers, not murder and kidnap civilians.

The resistance factions are fighting soldiers but most of the time Zionists bomb from the air or remotely because they are cowards. They've been trying to get on the ground in Gaza but each time keep getting their asses handed to them. Lots of Zionist invaders have been killed in Gaza this week, have you been following the news? It's beautiful. There's been some military censors in Israel about them but the resistance factions have been sharing the videos.

Hezbollah have been doing their thing too.

It's not, actually.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919

Actually, the genocide case has proven plausible enough to proceed, as was stated at the court.

And I provided sources that showed 800+ genocide scholars confirmed it was genocide, legal and Jewish genocide scholars saying the same and crime scholars saying the same. The only genocide deniers out here are Zionists, but that's to be expected since a) they're committing it or b) they're defending it or c) Zionists lie as they breathe.

[wat0n]

Zionists weren't socialists despite Zionist mythology. Nazis called themselves socialists too, but they are as much fascists as the Zionists are. Socialists don't do imperialism.

Haha

It's you changing goalposts in this debate. You have no evidence to support your lying opinion.

Tell that to Amit Soussana.

When you're asked for evidence for your that Aaron Mate got bribed or paid by Russia or that The Grayzone are "funded by the Kremlin", it is your job to prove it. Not mine to prove anything related to your nonsense claims.

Even the UN itself charges for briefings by its staff. Why would it be any different for country missions to the UN?

Needless to say, the requirement for such a job would be to, yes, work for a pro-Russia media outlet.

Lol at this gibberish to distract from you sharing a link that was broken claiming X without knowing what was on the page

...one from his own website, if anything.

Yes it does. The guy is an obvious agitator and oddly the cop found out and called him out. Which is surprising because cops usually protect Zionist agitators. The times, they are a'changing...

The fact that you believe someone wearing a kippah walking by leftists is an "agitator" speaks volumes.

I don't trust the Western org you shared which is why I asked for a Palestinian source supposedly about something that comes from the Palestinian Constitution which you've been unable to present after being asked repeatedly, which suggests my skepticism about that org is correct. Plus, I'm not giving compulsive liars the benefit of the doubt on stuff like this..

You have not provided a Palestinian source for that thing you and that website you brought to my attention claims is from the Palestinian Constitution. I haven't been able to find a Palestinian source for it either so I will continue to file this under 'bullshit' and either offer up the source or don't. You have repeatedly picked 'don't' but still want to talk about this for some reason.

It's actually from academics, not some random "Western source"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparati ... ns_Project

Forensic Architecture are headed by an Israeli architect who to date have not been caught out lying basically every day, like your sources, the IOF and Israeli government. They proved what everyone knew, the occupying army in Israel executed the journalist and the rest of us saw the same terrorists attack mourners and her casket at her funeral. You repeatedly lying about her killing in service to the genocidal state doesn't change the facts.

They got caught out bullshitting when it came to the Al Ahli attack.

What a strange way to try to distract from me showing you further evidence of Christian pilgrims attacked by Zionists in the occupied Palestine.

They weren't the ones "attacked" (although the nuns didn't even get spat on).

Maybe he thought cops would protect him. They tend to protect these savages though, usually.

Why would he think that?

It was never reported who killed that bookstore owner but Hamas condemned the killing and Palestinians protested it because Palestinian Christians and Muslims don't have bad blood between each other. They are equally oppressed by the Zionists though. And you're just talking this shite to distract from the fact that Zionists attack Christian Palestinians on the regular, they have destroyed Christian hospitals and churches and schools in this genocidal war on Gaza.

Here's an Arab Christian talking about Zionist oppression of people of his faith.

Oh it was never reported... Or investigated for that matter. Am I correct?

It's quite a lot worse to be murdered than spat on, but that's me.

I regularly share stuff that supports my position. The links in the sentences, try clicking them some times. And spare your crap about Nazi salutes when the only Nazi in this debate is you. That's what Zionists are..

Your sources are usually propagandists, and including some that have a bad track record. Or which contradict your own arguments.

Where is your evidence Hamas oppress Christians? I am yet to see it. Did anyone else see it? Please point it in my direction if so...

Gaslighting is your only out now, heh?

It is not my job to go through your (dodgy) sources. You claimed "Hamas oppress Christians" and then presented that website as evidence, quoting about a bookstore owner attack which did not prove your claim at all and I showed how one head of Hamas condemned that attack. Really, when you lie so compulsively the least you can do is scroll back up to the debate so you can remember what is actually being debated instead of me repeatedly having to explain how you're twisting things in an attempt to sound like you're not a compulsive liar while I repeatedly point out how you're doing that constant lying thing..

You don't even need to do much of an effort given I quoted the relevant info. And it comes from a Catholic university affiliated to the Church.

I didn't "now" just "mention the blockade" but mentioned it as a starting point to explain why many Christians left Gaza. They left because the Zionist imposed a savage blockade on Gaza and turned it into a concentration camp.

And no, it's not "interesting". If Palestinians can afford to get out of Gaza then they go. The Zionists are fine with that because it means they don't allow them back in and then, less Palestinians, since they would prefer that they all left. That doesn't stop Gaza from being a prison. Palestinians are not allowed to travel, visit family in the West Bank, need visas to work at all anywhere and that's still always with the worry that if they ever leave, they won't be able to return.

So Gaza is an open air prison one can leave whenever he wants now?

You are sad that sanctions against two fundraisers for extremists settlers aren't reversed. Cool story.

The earlier ones you mentioned were tho. Did that make you sad too, since they were also directed at the fascists in the West Bank too?

I'm not sad the settlers are being subjected to sanctions. If anything I hope the US sanctions more of them.

And that's why people protest every day against Zionists, hold encampments, are boycotting in a way that's surprised even me, etcetera.

...Protests that are opposed by the public. You forgot that part.

"The Palestinian comprador's masters support their pet!"

Another cool story.

If the Palestinian Authority were popular amongst their people they would hold elections. But Palestinians see them as the traitors they are, as the co-managers of the occupation they are, who will sell out their people for money and power.

If Hamas was popular, it would hold elections, wouldn't it?

The people killing Israeli hostages are the usual suspects, the Israelis. This has been admitted by the IOF. It has been admitted by Israelis on October 7 when Israeli police and planes and tanks killed Israelis in the Kibbutz and at the festival. They killed the three captives who ran towards them waving white flags. They killed Ron Sherman and two other Israelis when the IDF pumped poisonous gas into the tunnel they were in. They killed a number of the hostages with their own bombs. Released Israeli hostages have repeatedly said they believed their own army would kill them and didn't say the same about their captors. It is not in the interest of Palestinians to kill their captives since they were using them as bargaining chips for their own hostages.

The families of hostages for the most part HATE the Israeli government today and have been protesting daily demanding an agreement to exchange all hostages. When Netanyahu and his coalition rejected the deal last week, the mother of one captive threatened to burn Tel Aviv down. Other relatives of detainees have said their government is continuing The Hannibal Directive against the hostages (AKA killing them).

You should pay more attention to what's happening with the hostages and their families. I've been reading a lot about them. They hate the state and some have come to similar conclusions like I have. About how October 7 and everything subsequent has shown how Israel is not in fact the safest place for Jews and anyone willing to put their lives on the line for a state which has proven it will leave its citizens high and dry (kidnapped) and its citizens (their families) high and dry when shit finally hits the fan.

It must be an eye-opening time for even Zionists, currently..

Hamas has already threatened to execute hostages, the ceasefire deal it wants would just legitimize that.

Many of the hostages' families do indeed hate Netanyahu, and why wouldn't they? After all, October 7 happened under his watch. Netanyahu bears responsibility for the October 7 attack happened, right after Hamas and the other factions that directly participated.

If it's simply a narrative, and by that I assume you mean something I made up, tell me which parties anywhere close to power in Israel pass as "the left".

None, this is a right-wing government after all. It's the coalition Netanyahu set up when he won in 2022.

When did this happen?

When they put it in their Constitution in 2003.

Every accusation Zionists accuse Palestinians of is indeed a confession and that's been proven over and over again. But demonising and projecting their crimes on their victims, that Zionist gravy train, has run out, as the masses worldwide see Israel correctly as a pariah, as a genocidal, racist, settler colony.

And that's been good.

Given your support for mass murder and mass rape of civilians, I think the only one projecting here is you.

Why do you keep debating with things I don't even say. I said Palestinians will be ruled by whoever they choose after you tried to decide for them who they can and cannot be ruled by, with your fantasies about eradicating Hamas.

Yet neither the PA nor Hamas want elections.

And of course, this doesn't deny the fact that Israelis will vote for whoever they want. Hopefully they'll vote for someone not as incompetent and self-interested, and facing corruption trials, as Netanyahu.

"want to fight"

You mean defend themselves against the settler colony that has forced them under a brutal, racist occupation.

If Israelis don't want resistance against their crimes, they could just stop committing them..

Hamas is clear it will fight Israel forever, and until its destruction.

If that's what most Palestinians really want, and vote accordingly, what do you think will happen?

This poll always cracks me up.

Is this supposed to be an argument?

They were responding to the above, as well as occupation and misery they were forced to live under. Their right to resist using armed struggle is enshrined in international laws. And there is no evidence of rape, although plenty of evidence of the IDF committing it against Palestinian men, women and children, since the start of the theft of Palestine to this day.

Clearly not since this stuff has happened since the 1920s in the context of Zionism, and even before that if we consider Jews before the rise of 19th century nationalism.

Every accusation is a confession

Projecting much again or are you fessin' up something?

The resistance factions are fighting soldiers but most of the time Zionists bomb from the air or remotely because they are cowards. They've been trying to get on the ground in Gaza but each time keep getting their asses handed to them. Lots of Zionist invaders have been killed in Gaza this week, have you been following the news? It's beautiful. There's been some military censors in Israel about them but the resistance factions have been sharing the videos.

Yeah, I bet they were fighting soldiers like the Bibas family heh?

Nobody believes this nonsense. And the IDF is pushing into Rafah as we speak.

Hezbollah have been doing their thing too.

Not fighting in close quarters either, although Hezbollah has lost more men than Israel has.

Actually, the genocide case has proven plausible enough to proceed, as was stated at the court.

And I provided sources that showed 800+ genocide scholars confirmed it was genocide, legal and Jewish genocide scholars saying the same and crime scholars saying the same. The only genocide deniers out here are Zionists, but that's to be expected since a) they're committing it or b) they're defending it or c) Zionists lie as they breathe.

Too bad former president Donoghue disagrees. What's plausible is that, if South Africa's claims are true, they would amount to a breach of the Genocide Convention. But the ICJ did not make any determinations on whether this is the case or if it's even plausible for the simple reason that this is left for the merits stage of the trial.

[Saeko]

[Saeko]

Legal Analysis by University Network for HumanRights, Boston University School of Law, Cornell Law School, Uni of Pretoria & Yale Law School on Israel's genocide:

https://www.humanrightsnetwork.org/genocide-in-gaza

[Saeko]

The ICJ just issued arrest warrants for Israeli and Hamas leaders:

[ingliz]

ICJ

ICC.

The difference is that ICJ cases involve countries, and the ICC is a criminal court which brings cases against individuals.

[QatzelOk]

...Your sources are usually propagandists, and including some that have a bad track record. Or which contradict your own arguments....

I'm happy to see that there isn't too much of a wat0n-Pants presence on this page of this thread. The other Israeli-kill threads are full of page after page of "Quote where I said the report was lying" spam. It seems like one of your hasbara tactics is to ignore reality, and the other is to bore people to death with spam.

But your tactic is a huge failure, and all you have done is brought down the level of discourse to a crude, less academic level of borish repitition. And you have failed to change anyone's thoughts about Israel's many terrorist crimes.

...Israel, which is frequently described as a “great US ally,” which it is not, and a “democracy,” which it is also not, is currently ranked in opinion polls as the most despised country in the world followed by the United States, which is rated as the country most likely to start a major war...

Israel is the most despised country on Earth, as it should be, followed by the Great Satan itself. Killing 150 First Nations wasn't enough for the rest of the world to respond, but it is waking up.

[wat0n]

I'm happy to see that there isn't too much of a wat0n-Pants presence on this page of this thread. The other Israeli-kill threads are full of page after page of "Quote where I said the report was lying" spam. It seems like one of your hasbara tactics is to ignore reality, and the other is to bore people to death with spam.

But your tactic is a huge failure, and all you have done is brought down the level of discourse to a crude, less academic level of borish repitition. And you have failed to change anyone's thoughts about Israel's many terrorist crimes.

It's not my fault you are unable to follow the discussion.

Israel is the most despised country on Earth, as it should be, followed by the Great Satan itself. Killing 150 First Nations wasn't enough for the rest of the world to respond, but it is waking up.

I don't doubt Israel, by virtue of having too many Jews, is the most despised country on Earth for you. Antisemitism is common among losers, particularly those Acadian ones who want to project their own racism against the indigenous peoples of the Americas, and other undesirables.