[FiveofSwords]

@FiveofSwords

Perhaps you are getting the Spanish mixed up with the Moors.

The first use of cannon for military purposes in the Western world was the Moorish cannon used in the defense of Seville in 1248 and of Niebla in 1262. In both cases, the city’s Arab residents fired some sort of primitive gun at the Spanish who were besieging them.

The Arab gun was not metal and fired a large arrow.

That's cute. The ballista was used by Alexander in his campaign against persia

[Pants-of-dog]

You guys should actually read some of the stuff you pretend to read, because your takes on history are always just unsophisticated and in fact just silly.

Ad hominem. Ignored.

You are talking about people and an era which was frankly far more intelligent and enlightened than the current day; they had to be; fools did not live long.

Untrue and irrelevant. Ignored.

One could easily argue, for example, that the north was far more 'racist' than the south. Because their normal attitude was that they simply do not want black people around, not even as slaves.

Irrelevant. Ignored.

And in fact one of their concerns about slavery was not that it was immoral...but rather that they feared a slave uprising...especially after Haiti happened. Part of why southern men were less concerned was simply because they were more comfortable with violence and confident in their martial discipline than the northern eggheads-i mean roundheads..

Irrelevant and ironically amusing, considering who won the war.

But in general, really, you might notice if you read more history that nobody was as hysterical as you are about race. The people you like to label as 'white supremacists' generally never even gave the matter much thought. Awareness of race was a thing that largely was a product of Darwin and the widespread acceptance of evolutionary biology...which took quite a long time because both Christians and communists were deeply resistant to it for ideological reasons.

Not quite. Scientific arguments justifying racism came about after Darwin, but race as an idea, and a justification for slavery, was already established by then.

Prior to Darwin, race was simply never viewed as scientific [i]because science was still a new thing./i]

In fact, Voltaire, who was probably the most censored philosopher prior to ww2 and could be the first of the 'new athiests' like Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris, semi jokingly remarked that if you believe that all humans were created by God, then that would have to include sub saharan africans. Which he felt was ridiculous to consider.

Voltaire was invested in the slave trade. It is not surprising that he created a philosophical framework to support the fact that the was making money off buying and selling Black people, where Black people were considered a different (and lower) species.

But yeah...the whole narrative and framing you guys construct about how the 'white man' used 'race' to oppress people...is just ignorant and kinda stupid. We used hard power to oppress people...and we never really gave a damn what people 'believed' about it lol. That just wasn't important. In fact the connection between ideology and power has always been rather vague and at best indirect. The real history of power has always been driven by technology, which I personally believe the white man was particularly suited for biologically.

….except for the fact that this was during the Enlightenment period when ideas of universal suffrage, religious emancipation, limits on government power, and equality were being discussed by guys like Voltaire when discussing the republican movements happening at the time. In order to resolve the contradiction, racism was very useful.

[Tainari88]

@FiveofSwords

The Spanish didn't have guns in the 1200s.

Early Chinese weapons were little more than a close-quarter low-power bamboo or laminated paper shotgun tube strapped to a spear and flashbangs. But technology advances, and by 1270, the Chinese had perfected high-nitrate powder; used metal tubes; and sized projectiles.

One could be here all day putting in how many inventions and creative technologies still in use to this very day were invented by African Americans, Latinos, Asians like the Chinese, and Native Americans and many others. But? Since Swordy man never studied that before he remains ignorant of it all. Am I surprised? No. It is part of racism. Never study things that are not about your narrow narrative that is false. Keep your eyes on the LIES. Hee hee.

Just one of a lot. If it was not for this African American inventor? We would have a lot of accidents with trains folks.

10. Multiplex Telegraph
Imagine landing a plane without the help of air traffic controllers. These controllers advise pilots on how to navigate takeoffs and landings without colliding with other planes. Granville T. Woods invented the device that allowed train dispatchers to do the same thing in 1887.

Woods' invention, the multiplex telegraph, allowed dispatchers and engineers at various stations to communicate with moving trains via telegraph. Conductors could also communicate with their counterparts on other trains.

Before 1887, train collisions were a huge problem, but Woods' device helped make train travel much safer. Woods was sued by Thomas Edison who claimed he was the inventor of the multiplex telegraph, but Woods won that lawsuit. Eventually, Edison asked him to work at his Edison Electric Light Company, but Woods declined, preferring to remain independent.

It was not only Tesla being ripped off by the White Guy who lies and says he invented everything. Lol.

Do you want me to put in thousands upon thousands of inventions that changed the world done by people who are not white? I can you know.

Just say the word and I will flood this thread with THOUSANDS of people who invented very important stuff that technology relies on who are not WHITE.

Do you want that? Swordy needs to break out the Kleenex though.

[FiveofSwords]

Ad hominem. Ignored.



Untrue and irrelevant. Ignored.



Irrelevant. Ignored.



Irrelevant and ironically amusing, considering who won the war.



Not quite. Scientific arguments justifying racism came about after Darwin, but race as an idea, and a justification for slavery, was already established by then.

Prior to Darwin, race was simply never viewed as scientific [i]because science was still a new thing./i]



Voltaire was invested in the slave trade. It is not surprising that he created a philosophical framework to support the fact that the was making money off buying and selling Black people, where Black people were considered a different (and lower) species.



….except for the fact that this was during the Enlightenment period when ideas of universal suffrage, religious emancipation, limits on government power, and equality were being discussed by guys like Voltaire when discussing the republican movements happening at the time. In order to resolve the contradiction, racism was very useful.

You might be interested to know that in thr 1600s, the chief Justice of England, John holt, was asked whether the magna Carta, which outlawed slavery, would apply to sub saharan africans.

His answer was no, because they are heathens amd rights come from God.

Not because they are black...but because they aren't Christian

[Tainari88]

That's cute. The ballista was used by Alexander in his campaign against persia

Semantics is what you do. Ingliz is correct though. Wrong again as usual.

Lee Hester
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Amateur Military Historian With Relevant Education (1978–present)
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11mo
It depends on what you mean by “Artillery.” If you mean the traditional cannon firing a projectile using some kind of chemical reaction for propulsion,then NO. As far as we know, chemical propellants for that purpose started with “black powder” which was not invented until over 1000 years after Alexander’s time.

On the other hand, if by “Artillery” you mean a “ranged weapon” shooting a projectile that cannot be carried and fired by a single soldier… then the answer is YES. They had so-called “siege engines” like ballistae that could fire stones or bolts several hundred yards.

Liar he is folks. Not surprised.

[Verv]

Actually leo frank got sentenced to death after a jury trial and then mysteriously his charges were dropped. A lynch mob in Atlanta simply killed him because they knew it was corruption that got him off. That incident is what started the adl.

Anyway I don't really understand how that is related to my point. What I was saying is that anyone could have forged their own empire. 1500 years ago, there was no reason to assume white people would dominate the earth. It just ended up that way.

So being 'white passing' has nothing to do with acquiring power. Developing the musket, though, probably did.

I guess it was an aside about how Americans recoiled from accusations of anti-Semitism, and thought it would be petty to judge people based off of these differences.

Secondly, yeah, he was sentenced to death, but surely you also read about the sheer amount of outside interference from Jewish organizations, Jewish financiers, Jewish media, etc., that all attempted to get a man off the hook who faced overwhelming evidence against him, and the way that a lot of Americans were manipulated even just by the accusation of anti-Semitism.

Probably it is the case that, at this time, there was a perception that other races were generally inferior, but it was approached even scientifically by the elites at this time, and applied with great cruelty even intra-racially.

In the future, though, I'd appreciate it if you did not try to talk about the irrelevance of my post - I think that's a waste of time. This is turning into a mega-thread and the discussions can meander here or there.

[Verv]

The USA needed white supremacy because the USA was never a white country.

You cannot steal land from Indigenous people without the myth that white people are better and more deserving of the land.

Nor can you steal labour from slaves and immigrants without the myth that white people are better and more deserving of the labour.

To be completely fair: white settlement of the East Coast began with a long-term peace treaty with the natives that was mutually beneficial...

This is also sort of the story of Mexico: various tribal groups were actually quite interested in allying with the Spanish to destroy the Aztecs who were literally ritualistically sacrificing them in worship of the sun.

I'd also argue that white supremacy was not really "needed." They could have simply concluded that their advantages were simply given to them from God or circumstance, and they could have done the same thing.

Power doesn't need a grand rationalization.

[Verv]

@Rich and @Verv it is all justified with being Christian now? I really think the way you are interpreting being a decent Christian is very questionable with what you have written so far in this thread on this topic.

Unless you believe being Christian is the superior religion and the only truth, and you prove that by forcing people to march off their ancestral lands 'The Trail of Tears' and you kill the wild Buffalo or North American Bison by the millions almost to the point of extinction to let them rot in the plains of North and South Dakota because you want some pink Gold in the Black Hills and the Lakota were not moving from the place they buried their dead. Such a superior way of thinking eh? Wasting meat and resources using violence and get frustrated that they cannot defeat some savages on their own land, so just waste millions of animals to force them into starvation. The acts of a superior culture eh? No one mentions what Stormfront produces. A kid is going to jail forever over killing innocent black people. This is recent history folks--not a century and a half ago. It is the mentality that has to be examined.

No, the denial of what has happened continues on in the minds of white men who refuse to think they might not be the great and superior race that is born to rule over others. That shit needs to stop and it needs to be examined for what it is. Not justify it with ideas of a special status that no one else on Earth has.

That is the problem with the entire idea of why governments go to war. We are special. We have more rights. We got to do this. There is no other option or choice because if we do not? The OTHERS will take our place. We were replaced by the OTHERS. Who think the same way about us as we do about them. Kill or be killed.

Fear of losing power and being replaced. Over what? Money? Land? It is mostly fictional privileges and ego-driven CRAP.

The problem is that.

What are the Satanic forces for Christians but lies and EGO that say put your ego first in all decisions eh?

And you fall for it every time!

What, exactly, are you accusing me of that is unchristian?

[Verv]

It's not "some shit". Your conception of white isnt universal across time or place. At the time of the founding fathers everyone but the English were non-white. Germans and Swedes were swarthy, to say nothing of the Irish, Spanish, French or Italians. Whites were indeed a minority.

By that you mean a Founding Father - the one who was the most famous for being a whoremonger and lecher.

I believe the actual word he used was "tawny."

But yeah, it has been really fun:



The Navigation Acts, I believe, legally defined basically any European as white, and I think also Turks were de facto white and never were subjected to legal cases (some people define that as European as well)...

I think the average person in the 17th and 18th century viewed a German, French, or Swede as white.... I say this because so many Americans intermixed with Germans and Swedes even in those days, and there were Walloons and Huguenauts that would also be married with without any second thought.

But IDK, if you want to spend your day compiling all the instances of Benjamin Franklin and random people were wilding and drawing Irishmen as apes and shit, go ahead. I think there is something to be said about the attitudes that people had that were trying to be exclusive as to what is "white," and it would be an interesting study, but in practice, Americans were ready to treat any European as white.

The definition of white is continually changing. Within my living memory, Arabs and North Africans went from white to not white. Jews are both white and non white depending on context.

Since race is purely a construct... aren't Jews the whitest people alive today, since they continue the imposition of Whiteness on the brown world through a settler state that uses apartheid?

[Tainari88]

What, exactly, are you accusing me of that is unchristian?

Verv, what is the message of the Christ? Of the New Testament? Is it about being superior to others? Or is it facing Satan in the Desert where he is proposing all of the riches of the world, to be a king, to be a general with the power of all the armies, to be the most powerful human being the world has ever known? Why would Satan propose that to the Christ if Satan was not the ruler of all the Mundane World? That is how you become an instrument symbolically of Satan. By allowing EGO to rule your head and your heart.

That New Testament message was about the Christ rejecting that Satanic proposal. He only serves the one true God. His lord. It means that he prefers being spit on, reviled, tortured, hated, and crucified and suffocated painfully and slowly in front of his mother and his closest disciples rather than fall for that Satanic lying mundane EGO traps.

That is what made him the spiritual redeemer of the Christian religious tradition. The Romans were polytheistic. They followed Jupiter, Diana, Apollo, Venus, etc. They were the most powerful Empire of that era. Deus.

Do you think Christ according to the scripture would approve of the hatred of African people who are mostly Protestant Christians in the USA? To think of them as not as human as the White people? And that they were an inferior people? When the entire Old Testament is about the old system in the Egyptian Pharaonic world. Moses led his people out of slavery.

When you study human cultures you have to study their major religions as well. What is behind the myth and also what is behind the human symbolism of a religious discipline. The Muslims bow and go down on their knees and pray facing Mecca and the Holy Land...a call to prayer. What are they doing. Submitting their EGOS to God. You have to say that you are nothing in front of the Creator. That is the core of Muslim faith right there. Submit the EGO.

The Buddhists are about slaying the EGO. They talk about it all the time.

Many major religions share that in common. Why? When they differ on so many aspects of worship and ceremony but they all agree that you have to have consistency in submitting the EGO. Take it out of the way. If you fail at that you are very much going to be captured by the Evil forces of the world. That is what they all have in common.

And in that I do think the major religions of humanity are very right. If you believe that your 'race' is the one who has the right to rule the world and that thought is embedded in your subconscious mind Verv? You will never be a great Christian where it counts Verv. In action and thought. In the end, we all have to die and go from this world. Feeding an ego full of lies about superiority and thinking of others as less than your group is the epitome of serving the Satan. For sure.

By their fruits you shall know them. Stormfront bears rotten fruit. Murdered people. Why? Because if you listen to that and take it seriously over time? It means you truly believe in something you never earned, never worked for and never did a thing to become. Did you pick being white on purpose? Or where you born that way? Everyone is born the 'race' or ethnicity they were born. What defines us are our choices, our values and what we put a lot of effort and work in becoming. When the only thing that is of grave concern to you is your color? Something you never controlled or did to earn? You become an instrument of lies. It is a philosophy of people who fear losing status. Status that is about the mundane world. Not the spiritual world that is what a truly Christian believer has to do in this world. A very hard road of sacrifice and a lot of inner work.

You always know who those people are....they do good works. Give good fruit. When those people die instead of rotten fruit (race based murders and angry people who felt hurt deeply by having their loved ones taken from them over hatred that has no justification) you are looking at rotten fruit Verv. Not good fruit. Rotten fruit. And that is not the purpose of Christian practices like prayer, and confession of sins and living a holy life in Jesus' footsteps.

Living a truly great Christian life is just about the hardest road there is to live in this world. But in the end if you remain faithful to it Verv? You get a lot of greatness. Transformation. That is the great reward.

Being a racist is not going to transform anyone into anything good Verv. It never will.

I have a great love of both science and studying it and a great love of studying comparative religions. They are very different. But it is interesting because human culture encompasses both paths. The logical and mental discipline of the scientific method, and the emotionally rooted and spiritual and also intuitive path of religious spirituality.

If you choose the latter it is about how good you are at LOVING people that hate, revile, and spit on you and make your life a living hell. Yet you keep yourself steady under that storm:

How hard is it not eating anything for 40 days in a desert? Or being under a lot of deprivation and wanting relief? Why do that voluntarily eh? It is about what has to happen to the spirit to take that torture that was coming and it was a very huge test of the Spirit.

Humans fail so many times Verv. They fail their brothers and sisters, parents and children, they fail at so many aspects of life. The only way they get the strength to live through those failures is being able to practice disciplining their minds, their hearts and their spirits. It is easy to be blinded by hubris and ego. I find it hard to even think of all the attachments one has in this world.

But in the end our destiny is a grave and becoming dust. You must find out what defines your actions in life. For your daughter's example and for everyone whom you love and respect deeply in your life.

In the end we are exactly how much we can love in this world. How much we can love and give. That is what will define us.

The ones dedicated to griping, complaining and worrying about winning race wars and ego trips? Is a wasted opportunity.

I hope you choose always love. First and second and third and last. Just love. Never fear and never anything that takes you from your love of what being a Christian is or should be about. Renouncing the world and only concentrating on what is transformational.

You are so lucky to have that child. She loves her father. And you love her. Imagine that magnified millions of times? That is supposed to be the tolerance and love of God.

If you are religious? It takes away every fear of anything there might be in this world. Full of war, and crazy thoughts of ego driven we are better. We are allowed to do this immorality. All that has to be thought about Verv.

It is very hot here. I think I need to rest a bit.

I have come to think of you with fondness.

You write beautifully always.

Adios,

T.

[QatzelOk]

When I say there is no country for white people, I mean none of them. There is no country for any 'local' nor 'macroscopic' white people or white culture. Nothing...

I think you mean that there is no country that is "exclusively" for people with little melanomin. There are countries like Iceland, Finland, and Scotland... that are majority pigment-limited people. Why do you need this to be an exclusive feature of the people in your dream country?

Well folks, the white Americans are stateless. They have no country. They are just puppets of some powerful Jews. The Jews control the world and that is why Washington DC is their puppet and not the other way around. ...

And this is not sustainable and will soon end in civil war and lots of misery for everyone involved. This current disorder demonstrates why social construction is so dangerous when it isn't mitigated by reality. For millenia, the attractive misinformation of Abrahamic texts have put humanity into a perilous survival position.

In the "chosen people myth," you can see the audience capture of the literati of an ancient culture.

I'm sure this myth got them lots of sponsorship deals and invitations to banquets. But the lie that they used for self-marketing lead to Loxism.

The German Nazis and to some extent the Japanese were the culmination of a perfect storm of extremist great power militarism and extreme racism...

And they had been inspired by the USA and its genocide of hundreds of cultures. The USA is the biggest genocide project in human history, and yet you mentioned "the other guys" because your ideas have been warped by the social construction of American racial superiority.

And the USA is not even a race - it just plays one on TV.

[ingliz]

@FiveofSwords

It is generally accepted that gunpowder has existed in China since at least the 8th century. Do you think they sat on their hands for over 500 years waiting for the white man to show them how to use it?

They did not...

The first documented battlefield use of gunpowder artillery was on 29 January 1132, when Song General Han Shizhong used metal cannon (火銃) to capture a city in Fujian.

Note: This was over 200 years before Europeans first used a more primitive version of the same weapon in a failed attempt to recapture a castle.

cute

You appear to be amused that the Moorish cannon fired an arrow.

The first recorded metal cannon in the West, a novelty presented to Edward III upon his accession to the English throne in 1327, was an iron bottle with a narrow neck loaded with gunpowder.

It fired an iron bolt feathered with iron.*

Ten years later, in 1337, they were being employed at the Siege of Stirling Castle.**





* If you want to know how that works. You place a wooden sabot behind the projectile to maintain gas pressure in the tube.

** The Chinese weapons were more sophisticated than the Arabs' in the 1200s, their weapons more refined and tactics more effective than the Europeans' in the 1300s - Europe didn't catch up until the 1450s.

[Rich]

The Buddhists are about slaying the EGO. They talk about it all the time.

Many major religions share that in common. Why? When they differ on so many aspects of worship and ceremony but they all agree that you have to have consistency in submitting the EGO. Take it out of the way. If you fail at that you are very much going to be captured by the Evil forces of the world. That is what they all have in common.

And in that I do think the major religions of humanity are very right. If you believe that your 'race' is the one who has the right to rule the world and that thought is embedded in your subconscious mind Verv? You will never be a great Christian where it counts Verv. In action and thought. In the end, we all have to die and go from this world. Feeding an ego full of lies about superiority and thinking of others as less than your group is the epitome of serving the Satan. For sure.

So this raised a number of questions in my mind. Do you think that you are a better person than @FiveofSwords? Are you part of any groups organisations? If so do you think that any of these groups / organisations are better than the Klu klux Klan? And have you slain your own ego?

[Verv]

Verv, what is the message of the Christ? Of the New Testament? Is it about being superior to others? Or is it facing Satan in the Desert where he is proposing all of the riches of the world, to be a king, to be a general with the power of all the armies, to be the most powerful human being the world has ever known? Why would Satan propose that to the Christ if Satan was not the ruler of all the Mundane World? That is how you become an instrument symbolically of Satan. By allowing EGO to rule your head and your heart.

That New Testament message was about the Christ rejecting that Satanic proposal. He only serves the one true God. His lord. It means that he prefers being spit on, reviled, tortured, hated, and crucified and suffocated painfully and slowly in front of his mother and his closest disciples rather than fall for that Satanic lying mundane EGO traps.

That is what made him the spiritual redeemer of the Christian religious tradition. The Romans were polytheistic. They followed Jupiter, Diana, Apollo, Venus, etc. They were the most powerful Empire of that era. Deus.

Do you think Christ according to the scripture would approve of the hatred of African people who are mostly Protestant Christians in the USA? To think of them as not as human as the White people? And that they were an inferior people? When the entire Old Testament is about the old system in the Egyptian Pharaonic world. Moses led his people out of slavery.

When you study human cultures you have to study their major religions as well. What is behind the myth and also what is behind the human symbolism of a religious discipline. The Muslims bow and go down on their knees and pray facing Mecca and the Holy Land...a call to prayer. What are they doing. Submitting their EGOS to God. You have to say that you are nothing in front of the Creator. That is the core of Muslim faith right there. Submit the EGO.

The Buddhists are about slaying the EGO. They talk about it all the time.

Many major religions share that in common. Why? When they differ on so many aspects of worship and ceremony but they all agree that you have to have consistency in submitting the EGO. Take it out of the way. If you fail at that you are very much going to be captured by the Evil forces of the world. That is what they all have in common.

And in that I do think the major religions of humanity are very right. If you believe that your 'race' is the one who has the right to rule the world and that thought is embedded in your subconscious mind Verv? You will never be a great Christian where it counts Verv. In action and thought. In the end, we all have to die and go from this world. Feeding an ego full of lies about superiority and thinking of others as less than your group is the epitome of serving the Satan. For sure.

By their fruits you shall know them. Stormfront bears rotten fruit. Murdered people. Why? Because if you listen to that and take it seriously over time? It means you truly believe in something you never earned, never worked for and never did a thing to become. Did you pick being white on purpose? Or where you born that way? Everyone is born the 'race' or ethnicity they were born. What defines us are our choices, our values and what we put a lot of effort and work in becoming. When the only thing that is of grave concern to you is your color? Something you never controlled or did to earn? You become an instrument of lies. It is a philosophy of people who fear losing status. Status that is about the mundane world. Not the spiritual world that is what a truly Christian believer has to do in this world. A very hard road of sacrifice and a lot of inner work.

You always know who those people are....they do good works. Give good fruit. When those people die instead of rotten fruit (race based murders and angry people who felt hurt deeply by having their loved ones taken from them over hatred that has no justification) you are looking at rotten fruit Verv. Not good fruit. Rotten fruit. And that is not the purpose of Christian practices like prayer, and confession of sins and living a holy life in Jesus' footsteps.

Living a truly great Christian life is just about the hardest road there is to live in this world. But in the end if you remain faithful to it Verv? You get a lot of greatness. Transformation. That is the great reward.

Being a racist is not going to transform anyone into anything good Verv. It never will.

I have a great love of both science and studying it and a great love of studying comparative religions. They are very different. But it is interesting because human culture encompasses both paths. The logical and mental discipline of the scientific method, and the emotionally rooted and spiritual and also intuitive path of religious spirituality.

If you choose the latter it is about how good you are at LOVING people that hate, revile, and spit on you and make your life a living hell. Yet you keep yourself steady under that storm:

How hard is it not eating anything for 40 days in a desert? Or being under a lot of deprivation and wanting relief? Why do that voluntarily eh? It is about what has to happen to the spirit to take that torture that was coming and it was a very huge test of the Spirit.

Humans fail so many times Verv. They fail their brothers and sisters, parents and children, they fail at so many aspects of life. The only way they get the strength to live through those failures is being able to practice disciplining their minds, their hearts and their spirits. It is easy to be blinded by hubris and ego. I find it hard to even think of all the attachments one has in this world.

But in the end our destiny is a grave and becoming dust. You must find out what defines your actions in life. For your daughter's example and for everyone whom you love and respect deeply in your life.

In the end we are exactly how much we can love in this world. How much we can love and give. That is what will define us.

The ones dedicated to griping, complaining and worrying about winning race wars and ego trips? Is a wasted opportunity.

I hope you choose always love. First and second and third and last. Just love. Never fear and never anything that takes you from your love of what being a Christian is or should be about. Renouncing the world and only concentrating on what is transformational.

You are so lucky to have that child. She loves her father. And you love her. Imagine that magnified millions of times? That is supposed to be the tolerance and love of God.

If you are religious? It takes away every fear of anything there might be in this world. Full of war, and crazy thoughts of ego driven we are better. We are allowed to do this immorality. All that has to be thought about Verv.

It is very hot here. I think I need to rest a bit.

I have come to think of you with fondness.

You write beautifully always.

Adios,

T.

I Read this all twice, partly because I enjoyed it, and partly because I did not fully understand where I may have sounded racist before... I feel I have introduced nuance.

I accept that genetic differences between ethnic groups are real, and therefore the concept of race is workable. Not necessarily as how we have it, but in terms of it being an accurate description of differences in characteristics - these characteristics are physical and thus superficial, but they're also relevant in things like health care...

A person with mental illness and developmental issues that result in a low IQ can be capable of profound love and kindness towards those around them, and someone else who is very attractive, "sane," and high IQ can be manipulative and just horrible... Yet, it is clear, the first person is more Chrsitian, and thus a greater example of how we should behave...

There are certain Christian Saints in the Orthodox Church who are 'Fools for Christ.' It is thought that they are among the smartest, most cunning - they did things that were foolish and bizarre to those around them but reflected perfect Christian virtue, and so they were "smart." But I am open to the idea that there were some Fool's for Christ who were literally mentally disabled or deeply traumatized, and the power of their faith manifesting is forever recorded in the Book of Gold...

So, there is not actually a "worth" to intellect, but only a burden. Those who have been given much ought to use it for the benefit of those around them...

So my message to a white supremacist would be...

If you are so supreme, you will elevate those around you & love them. You will be humble and prioritize peace & friendship.

Obviously, that is not what is happening, and not what is at the heart of any supremacist ideology.

And the message of any ideology should not be along a racial line, since there is neither Jew nor gentile...

I actually think that we can make race a non-dirty concept and something people are more comfortable by bringing counterproposals to people...

My idea is for nationalistic people to think about what it would mean, in the grand picture, to be that nation... Can it really be about a journey of revenge and violence? No. It should be about using acquired power and resources for the benefit of not just thesmelves, but others, and to build a society that is instructive to others as well as helpful...

Rome is not built just for Romans - what a small vision that would be. It is built for everyone to benefit from it - the world is bettered through trading with Rome, being inspired by Rome, and being allies and positive competitors with Rome...

And it is in this very process that the walls of separation fall down.

Extremists tend to be missing something in their lives... I theorize that by giving them purpose, a sense of belonging, a sense of achievement, and satisfying their views... They will learn satisfaction, and learn to share it...

We solve the problem of extremism by giving people community and comfort, and sending a positive message to them, I think...

And this is the essence of rehabilitation. Which should be universally given, out of love for our neighbor.

[Tainari88]

So this raised a number of questions in my mind. Do you think that you are a better person than @FiveofSwords? Are you part of any groups organisations? If so do you think that any of these groups / organisations are better than the Klu klux Klan? And have you slain your own ego?

Well my answer to you is what the Buddhists say you have to do to try to understand what being a Zen Buddhist is all about @Rich. The impermanence of the material world we live in and the dynamics of how our minds work in a world that is constantly in motion.

Because, I have read from you an interest in Buddhist philosophy. This little article piece brings a bit of curiosity about it.

https://exploringyourmind.com/whats-the ... Reflection

@FiveofSwords is a person who is part of an organization that is violent, and exclusionary. I disagree with that very strongly. The reasons are very self-evident. Mostly based on my life experiences. And the reasons for my disagreement with his 'political philosophy' and the reason for my not liking one bit his points of view are based exclusively on my life experiences. What is truth to me in this moment in the most Buddhist sense of the word.

Why write on a political debate board if you do not have strong opinions about life and your own experiences living that life? It is a waste of time mostly for political boards to go in and write on a board without a defined political point of view and are only here for name calling and myths. That is what a lot of political rallies turn into by the way. They usually turn into hating on the opposition and name calling political enemies and not explaining much or taking political action.

Why do I NOT agree with Five?

1. I have an adopted African American son from social services in the USA. I adopted him when he was nine years old. According to what these KKK people believe he should be in jail, failed in school, and be a hardened criminal. Why? His 'genes'. Did that happen? No. Why? Because you change a human being's environment and you shape them when they are still young enough to adapt to change well? And you love and care for them deeply? Their entire result and outcome in life, in academics, and the world change. It is dynamic. Not static. Especially behavior, education, and influence from being cared about and sacrificed for. It is not an easy road. That is why society at large within the system fails people a lot. It does not do the necessary work. It wastes perfectly healthy individuals with the actions of exclusion, racist beliefs, and acting like everything socially and economically done to others has no real effect on whether they are criminals, or unable to be positive people in society. People who use racism and want to spread lies about entire groups of people that they fail to work with, educate, and care about are part of the problem of why people become criminals and become despondent, and do not have hope, and say to hell with trying to be better. I give up. Again, rotten fruit. It is a collectively shared problem. Because way too many of us are good people but we are indifferent or do not act.

Have you ever adopted a kid from a different race and raised them with sacrifice? Yes or no Rich? And if the kid was African-looking how would you feel about some random KKK or Stormfront advocate coming to PoFo stating a lot of garbage about how inferior your kid was and all his people because they believe in a philosophy that only produces youth that wind up in a cage for life and not doing much to improve the circumstances of the kids without parents who have parents in jail for life for murder and mothers who are drug addicts because they hate the way they look. They hate being Black because it means and they internalize it well, it means they are inferior beings. And they hate themselves and take out their self-hatred on a three-year-old defenseless child that is their blood? Their child. That is what the racism out there does. It destroys the ones who are being discriminated against because they are told not once or twice, but thousands of times that they are INFERIOR, WORTHLESS and not to be respected.

If you take that seriously and internalize it? You become a person who can't even love their own flesh and blood. It is not a force for good at all Rich. Do you think it is?

Rotten fruit v. Good fruit. How do you distinguish? The results.

Based on life experiences and truth you have lived life to the best of your ability.

Everyone is going to be tested spiritually in this world. Nothing beats you harder in this world than life itself. It is an ugly world that exists in many places. How you respond to it is what the important legacy you leave behind to those you no longer are there for, because you died.

@FiveofSwords can change one day. He can drop the racist thoughts. But he has been at it for over 15 years according to what @Fasces has mentioned about his background. Most probably he is not a young man. He is not still trying to form his views. He is set and dedicated to his views.

My role with someone like him is not going to be agreement. Why? Everything I have been socially taught, and experienced in this life as a woman, with an identity and with a series of markers says he is not a just person, or a man of fairness or even logic. It is about fear with him.

So that is my explanation.

Do I think I am better than others? No. The reality is that once you think that? You will fall down the same rabbit hole that all arrogant people fall into...thinking that your rights are more important than the rights of the heathens if you are Christian--the infidels if you are a Muslim, or the Gentiles if you are a Jew.

I think every human being out there can make mistakes and be imperfect. And the reason for religion is to liberate that mind, that heart, and that spirit from that CHAIN of thinking your EGO is more important than the rights of others. That is where the issue with racists is dangerous. They create suffering in others simply because they refuse to acknowledge the essential nature of all human beings living a life in which they have no control over their social cultural background and 'race'.

It is a lie.

We all have to face our limitations, Rich. I know that my rights end when the rights of other human beings are negatively affected. That is how you can have a society that functions. If you lose sight of that essential truth? No reason to even be talking or writing on a politics board.

What is interesting to me is you subtly hint you want to identify with the overlords and the people with conventional and mundane power in this world. Why? When they do nothing for you in England Rich. You are not the 1%, you do not believe in born-again Christian stuff, and you are not a man who never reads a book. Why identify or want to identify with groups that are the ones who wasted the money of colonial rule for centuries, never did much for their national underclass, and only now want to play political games and not solve serious problems in the UK?

I have always known what I stand for Rich. Why come to a board to write if you never gave it much thought before? Only the 14-year-olds have that kind of issue. Not I.

I am being true to my background on all levels. Historical background, family background, educational background, gender background, and ethnic background, and also how I interpret life through my own ego. And my ego I always question every day. Am I in the wrong? Are the choices I am making here in this situation the best possible one that goes along or aligns with my values?

Am I doing others harm in some way if I choose this option? That is all any human person in that dynamic Buddhist philosophy can do really? That entire concept of choosing emptiness has merit. You have to always question just how full of bias and social conditioning goes into the decisions that affect others in your life. Emptying out the mind and questioning the ego every day is very important.

Most of us are on auto pilot most of the time Rich.

That is what leads us into the jungle of ignorance. It happens to all of us. What is your opinion on that?

[QatzelOk]

...@FiveofSwords is a person who is part of an organization that is violent, and exclusionary. ...

Yes, but if it was illegal to write that his organization is violent and exclusionary, you wouldn't have written that. You wouldn't have been able to say what you think.

And not being able to say or write what you think... is the result of a violence that is extreme and that reduces our survival odds by manipulating what we can say and what we can think.

I don't think Five Swords' organization proposes this. They just want a "WHITE POWER" organization that can compete with the "JEW POWER" organized crime gang that runs the West.

His resentment of this oppression by a moneyed crime gang... leads him to conclude that his "WHITE TRIBE" needs the same kind of arrangement.

But what he doesn't realize is that these two groups are just TWO BRATS fighting over who gets to spit on homeless people. The Israelis are poised and ready for their Manifest Destiny moments and never-ending expansion.... like what the USA has already committed historically.

[Tainari88]

Yes, but if it was illegal to write that his organization is violent and exclusionary, you wouldn't have written that. You wouldn't have been able to say what you think.

And not being able to say or write what you think... is the result of a violence that is extreme and that reduces our survival odds by manipulating what we can say and what we can think.

I don't think Five Swords' organization proposes this. They just want a "WHITE POWER" organization that can compete with the "JEW POWER" organized crime gang that runs the West.

His resentment of this oppression by a moneyed crime gang... leads him to conclude that his "WHITE TRIBE" needs the same kind of arrangement.

But what he doesn't realize is that these two groups are just TWO BRATS fighting over who gets to spit on homeless people. The Israelis are poised and ready for their Manifest Destiny moments and never-ending expansion.... like what the USA has already committed historically.

I understand what you are saying here Q. And it has a lot of truth.

But, I also come from a group that has not only not been allowed a voice, but has not been allowed a vote, and has to this very day have to be subject to modern day colonialism. We have no right to the land our ancestors have occupied for at least 5 thousand years continuously. No right to that land. We have been told we can't speak our native language, we have to die in foreign wars without the right to vote for the leaders that send us to our deaths, and we have our mothers die of uranium depletion poisoning because our land is useful to pollute for the US government due to our lack of ability to have a vote and fight back that decision. We are voiceless and powerless in that sense.

If we internalized that shit for real? Would have given up a long time ago on independence. Instead it is growing by leaps and bounds. The fight is not over. And we are a people that racially mixed for a long time over centuries. Our nationalist was a racially mixed man who spoke six languages and helped draft the Southern Irish constitution and studied the India British colonial relationship. He was a very smart Nationalist and did not go killing innocent women and children in a supermarket. They went after the Pres of the USA, and the US Congress and killed the Chief of Police in San Juan because they murdered unarmed civilians in a peaceful protest in the street that they had legal permits for.

They went after the ENEMY in their own political philosophy.

The White Nationalist Socialists of the USA do not have that kind of ability to do that kind of confrontation. Hell, we are a tiny island nation in the Caribbean Sea and Atlantic Ocean Q....with at the time about 2 million people only. And they still sent off people to go and confront that huge giant nation in the North who were fucking is over hard. That is having cojones.

We paid the price of that. And have been for a long time like all the other Republics in the Caribbean who dared to confront all that ugly colonial history. There is a reason why Don Black wanted to invade Dominica in the Caribbean. It is a very poor nation and one of the few that is very very small and has a democracy and it is run by African descendants and some native Carib indigenous descendants. The racists think they are just worthless and not important. We can take the island from them and do what our forefathers did before us.

Then they come up with this bullshit about White Genocide. Where? Because there are laws now protecting some poor Black people's right to shop in peace from 18 year old racist who hate their race and who go and case out a TOPS store in a part of Buffalo that is almost all Black? The ones actively attacking people from different races and not attacking the supposed group that is oppressing them--that in this case is the multicultural liberal corporate sellouts in the US Government....they do not go after those people.

Where is the White Genocide? It is a bunch of lies.

I am going to cry over the right to free speech of this Five man because boo hoo hoo, his group is not allowed to talk on some X or True Social or some Facebook shit?

That Stormfront has hundreds of thousands of members Q. They are not just one or two people. And they want to be able to get a foot hold into the conventional Right. And with the current fear that is spread in the USA it might have some traction. But what will be the final result? A whites only paradise? No. It will be a bloody civil war and most likely they will once again like in 1865 be on the losing side of history in the USA. Why? Did not read the signs of change and the winds of change. Nothing remains static. It is all dynamic change.

They want to go back to a more intelligent 'age'. Lol. They want to go back to an age when society was still learning its lessons in capitalism and in socioeconomic issues. It has moved beyond the older versions of itself.

They missed the boat on all levels. But what can you expect of people who only want to make their color and their race the overriding factor of their entire push in politics? They are severely short-sighted. It does not surprise me.

[FiveofSwords]

I think you mean that there is no country that is "exclusively" for people with little melanomin. There are countries like Iceland, Finland, and Scotland... that are majority pigment-limited people. Why do you need this to be an exclusive feature of the people in your dream country?


And this is not sustainable and will soon end in civil war and lots of misery for everyone involved. This current disorder demonstrates why social construction is so dangerous when it isn't mitigated by reality. For millenia, the attractive misinformation of Abrahamic texts have put humanity into a perilous survival position.

In the "chosen people myth," you can see the audience capture of the literati of an ancient culture.

I'm sure this myth got them lots of sponsorship deals and invitations to banquets. But the lie that they used for self-marketing lead to Loxism.


And they had been inspired by the USA and its genocide of hundreds of cultures. The USA is the biggest genocide project in human history, and yet you mentioned "the other guys" because your ideas have been warped by the social construction of American racial superiority.

And the USA is not even a race - it just plays one on TV.

Scotland gives no special privileges to scottish people. In fact the scottish state is anti scottish. The leader of the snp is a brown guy who complains that there are too many white people in Scotland. Any functional country actually DOES give special privileges of the nation it is supposed to represent. For sure north Korea would never allow some Indian guy be it's dictator who complains about how many Koreans are in north korea..Korea...

That is what I mean. It has nothing to do with melanin. A scottish man would be treated with more respect in a foreign country than he would in his ancestral homeland. That is just pathological.

One of the worst roman emperors was Caracella around 200ad who is known for removing all special privileges to ethnic romans. Normies would probably celebrate that act as enlightened, but I have no doubt it directly led to the fall of the roman empire. Romans no longer felt like it was their empire so they felt no desire to protect it.

[FiveofSwords]

Yes, but if it was illegal to write that his organization is violent and exclusionary, you wouldn't have written that. You wouldn't have been able to say what you think.

And not being able to say or write what you think... is the result of a violence that is extreme and that reduces our survival odds by manipulating what we can say and what we can think.

I don't think Five Swords' organization proposes this. They just want a "WHITE POWER" organization that can compete with the "JEW POWER" organized crime gang that runs the West.

His resentment of this oppression by a moneyed crime gang... leads him to conclude that his "WHITE TRIBE" needs the same kind of arrangement.

But what he doesn't realize is that these two groups are just TWO BRATS fighting over who gets to spit on homeless people. The Israelis are poised and ready for their Manifest Destiny moments and never-ending expansion.... like what the USA has already committed historically.

I do not spit on homeless people. In fact I think the existence of homeless people delegitimizes a state. The state should be able to provide every single one of its citizens a decent quality of life, decent health care, and the ability for any of them to raise a family if they so choose. With modern technology there is no excuse for any citizen to be struggling to survive.

[FiveofSwords]

I Read this all twice, partly because I enjoyed it, and partly because I did not fully understand where I may have sounded racist before... I feel I have introduced nuance.

I accept that genetic differences between ethnic groups are real, and therefore the concept of race is workable. Not necessarily as how we have it, but in terms of it being an accurate description of differences in characteristics - these characteristics are physical and thus superficial, but they're also relevant in things like health care...

A person with mental illness and developmental issues that result in a low IQ can be capable of profound love and kindness towards those around them, and someone else who is very attractive, "sane," and high IQ can be manipulative and just horrible... Yet, it is clear, the first person is more Chrsitian, and thus a greater example of how we should behave...

There are certain Christian Saints in the Orthodox Church who are 'Fools for Christ.' It is thought that they are among the smartest, most cunning - they did things that were foolish and bizarre to those around them but reflected perfect Christian virtue, and so they were "smart." But I am open to the idea that there were some Fool's for Christ who were literally mentally disabled or deeply traumatized, and the power of their faith manifesting is forever recorded in the Book of Gold...

So, there is not actually a "worth" to intellect, but only a burden. Those who have been given much ought to use it for the benefit of those around them...

So my message to a white supremacist would be...

If you are so supreme, you will elevate those around you & love them. You will be humble and prioritize peace & friendship.

Obviously, that is not what is happening, and not what is at the heart of any supremacist ideology.

And the message of any ideology should not be along a racial line, since there is neither Jew nor gentile...

I actually think that we can make race a non-dirty concept and something people are more comfortable by bringing counterproposals to people...

My idea is for nationalistic people to think about what it would mean, in the grand picture, to be that nation... Can it really be about a journey of revenge and violence? No. It should be about using acquired power and resources for the benefit of not just thesmelves, but others, and to build a society that is instructive to others as well as helpful...

Rome is not built just for Romans - what a small vision that would be. It is built for everyone to benefit from it - the world is bettered through trading with Rome, being inspired by Rome, and being allies and positive competitors with Rome...

And it is in this very process that the walls of separation fall down.

Extremists tend to be missing something in their lives... I theorize that by giving them purpose, a sense of belonging, a sense of achievement, and satisfying their views... They will learn satisfaction, and learn to share it...

We solve the problem of extremism by giving people community and comfort, and sending a positive message to them, I think...

And this is the essence of rehabilitation. Which should be universally given, out of love for our neighbor.

This is not correct. Rome absolutely was created for the romans...and that is why the romans were inspired to fight for it. Around 200 ad when Rome ceased to really be about romans, the empire began to fall because nobody cared about preserving it. Because nobody thought of it as their empire.

Your idea of what nationalism should be is simply by definition the OPPOSITE of nationalism.

And it simply would not work. It is not human nature. People strive for greatness because they are inspired to advance THEIR people...not ALL people. Because human tribes are always in conflict with eachother over who gets to control resources like land. We all might benefit from rocket technology today, but van Braun developed rocket technology to assist Germany in their war against the allies

This is the great downfall of white civilization, actually. We might excell at developing new technology, but those weapons can then be used against us by rival people.

But anyway, your caricature of nationalists is just totally wrong. Humans are not sadistic and no healthy human wants to just be mean for the sake of being mean. Thr unfortunate fact is that sometimes self preservation requires being mean, when other people decide to make themselves your enemy. Rome never would have thought to salt the earth of Carthage if the Carthagenians never attacked the romans...