[wat0n]

If there's evidence of the presence of fighters there, and the attacks lead to the lowest collateral damage of civilians, it is legitimate.

More false equivalences as one would expect from those who believe October 7 was legitimate.

[Pants-of-dog]

And the IDF and Israeli government claimed to have evidence of fighters. When they were given the opportunity to present said evidence, it was not provided.

So, there is no evidence of fighters in the family homes targeted by the IDF.

But it is supposedly fine if the IDF targets family homes, since the Nazis did too, apparently.

[wat0n]

The Allies also did, for military reasons as well. In case you want to draw some weird equivalence with the Nazis.

I doubt anyone will expect to see any intel as long as the war is ongoing.

[Pants-of-dog]

So now the argument by the Zionists is that the Nazis were justified because the Allies did similar things. Weird and morally questionable. Whatever.

And even Zionists agree that the IDF bombed those families and later provided no evidence there was any military threat.

[QatzelOk]

So now the argument by the Zionists is that the Nazis were justified because the Allies did similar things. Weird and morally questionable. Whatever.

And even Zionists agree that the IDF bombed those families and later provided no evidence there was any military threat.

The Zionists will say anything... as long as it makes them more powerful. Do you not understand this yet?

I am surprised that you are able to "maintain interest" in arguing ad nauseum with Zionists who have zero empathy for anyone else and are always looking to trap people with conversation-ending tropes and talking points that add nothing to your knowledge of the world.

[wat0n]

So now the argument by the Zionists is that the Nazis were justified because the Allies did similar things. Weird and morally questionable. Whatever.

And even Zionists agree that the IDF bombed those families and later provided no evidence there was any military threat.

Again, no intelligence will be provided while there's active combat. This isn't particularly new or strange.

I will note the Nazis had the extermination or enslavement of the occupied population as one of their stated goals and there were orders to that effect.

[Pants-of-dog]

It should be noted that many senior IDF and Israeli government officials have openly spoken of extermination or enslavement of the occupied population as one of their stated goals and soldiers in the IDF have responded with social media posts to that effect.

And one of the interim measures of the ICJ was to stop allowing such genocidal comments, which the IDF and Israeli government have not done.

[wat0n]

Oh, you mean the misquoted comments? Or you mean those comments by officials not involved in running the war?

And if we go by genocidal rhetoric, let's not forget Hamas' rhetoric to that effect. But as usual it's about "who" and not "what".

[Pants-of-dog]

So, Hamas is bad because they use genocidal rhetoric like the Nazis….

But the IDF and Israeli government are justified when they use genocidal rhetoric because other people (like the Nazis) did.

[wat0n]

Nobody is justified when using genocidal rhetoric.

But it seems Hamas' rhetoric is, according to you, acceptable. Even just a form of legitimate resistance.

[Unthinking Majority]

Zionists and others who support the way Israel is currently run are the people who actively choose to perpetuate the conditions that led to October 7.

If the goal is to avoid another October 7, it is necessary to address the causes of the attack that day.

Now, seeing as how the US is in the process of making it illegal for people to say things like “Israel is a settler colonialist state” on a campus, it will be difficult to address the causes of the October 7 attack.

The cause of the Oct 7 attacks is that Israel exists in any form whatsoever, and Hamas is a jihadist extremist terrorist organization whose raison d'etre is the destruction of Israel via jihad so that Muslims can take control of every inch of land in the region. This comes directly from Hamas' own charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."
...
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."
...
"The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters."
...
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

Then all the academics, protesters, professors, Palestinians, and others who claim to be using the phrase as a call to end the occupation are all lying?

They're either lying or horribly naive and uneducated as to what the phrase actually means and are acting essentially as useful idiots for anti-Zionists who wish to destroy Israel, including Hamas:

"From the river to the sea is a political phrase that refers geographically to the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, an area historically called Palestine, which today includes Israel and the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_ ... o_the_sea#

From the 2017 Hamas charter update:

"Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea."
...
"Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity."

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hama ... ument-full

[Pants-of-dog]

The cause of the Oct 7 attacks is that Israel exists in any form whatsoever, and Hamas is a jihadist extremist terrorist organization whose raison d'etre is the destruction of Israel via jihad so that Muslims can take control of every inch of land in the region. This comes directly from Hamas' own charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory)."
...
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."
...
"The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters."
...
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

That seems vague and does not necessarily denote killing all the Jews, ir even destroying Israel.

And a few out of context quotes does not disprove the effects of settler colonialism.

They're either lying or horribly naive and uneducated as to what the phrase actually means and are acting essentially as useful idiots for anti-Zionists who wish to destroy Israel, including Hamas:

"From the river to the sea is a political phrase that refers geographically to the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, an area historically called Palestine, which today includes Israel and the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_ ... o_the_sea#

From the 2017 Hamas charter update:

"Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea."
...
"Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity."

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hama ... ument-full

Well, if you think people are lying and secretly hateful, then you should not bother interacting with them, seeing as how you will not interact with what they are explicitly saying,

There is an occupation right now.

People in occupied lands will want to fight for their freedom.

So logically, this can easily be a call for freedom. The claim that it must mean genocide is an inference.

[KurtFF8]

The gaslighting by the pro-Israel crowd is so blatant. Israel: actively and actually committing genocide. Israel Defenders: "It's the people we're killing that want to genocide!!"

An argument like this would be a pathetic and laughable thing to see if it weren't for the fact that thousands of people continue to be murdered by the regime in Israel.

[wat0n]

"From the river to the sea" has also been used by right-wing Zionists including the Likud. Is it genocidal when they use it or this charity only applies to Palestinians, @Pants-of-dog?

It's quite clear the phrase refers, in both cases, to irredentism.

@KurtFF8 gaslighting is to claim leftists are not harassing Jews or uttering genocidal rhetoric when we have you on video.

[Pants-of-dog]

If I were to approach this debate with the same argument as the defenders of genocide, this would be easy.

I could simply ignore facts and what people actually say and mean and just accuse everyone of being a Bad Guy.

[wat0n]

More gaslighting and projection.

The only ones ignoring actual footage of genocidal rhetoric are the leftists.

[Pants-of-dog]

Ignoring the racist and genocidal rhetoric of IDF and Israeli officials and simultaneously accusing leftists and protesters of being the Bad Guy is a clear example of exactly what I was referring to.

[wat0n]

If it's about ignoring things, no one has actually addressed the argument that most of the evidence consists in misquoting.

And of course the available footage of genocidal chants by leftists, chants that do not prompt any response from organizers, on top of the also available footage of harassment and limits of the freedom of movement of students and particularly Jewish ones.

[QatzelOk]

The cause of the Oct 7 attacks is that Israel exists in any form whatsoever, and Hamas is a jihadist extremist terrorist organization whose raison d'etre is the destruction of Israel via jihad ...

The Zionist entity has decided to re-locate to your city.
You will have to leave immediately or be killed.

Please do not radicalize during your ethnic-cleansing.

- Management

[Pants-of-dog]

The supposed evidence for misquoting is a single tweet, and has been addressed in a more topical thread many times.

The supposed genocidal chants have been reviewed and there was no explicit call for genocide. It was all inference, and requires the assumption that protesters are secretly Bad Guys.

There was no footage of harassment.

There was one short clip of a man who was not touched and who (to avoid bumping into others who deliberately stood in his way) ended up just walking around. This is also not harassment.

There is the fact that the police only act against Palestinian supporters despite clear attacks on Palestinian supporters. This has not been addressed.

There is the fact that wealthy donors support stifling dissent snd have used their economic leverage to do so.

There is the fact that these protests have been, by and large, peaceful.

There is the fact that Congress and the establishment have clearly sided with one side, and that is the one opposed to the protesters.

None of this has been addressed except to call the protesters Bad Guys.

There