[wat0n]

You did not answer the question, @Pants-of-dog. Are you trying to claim October 7 was a form of legitimate resistance?

[Pants-of-dog]

So we agree that the IDF and Israeli government deliberately killed civilians every day in peacetime.

[wat0n]

No, we don't agree about that either.

I am still waiting @Pants-of-dog, are you trying to claim October 7 was a form of legitimate resistance? Stop weaseling.

[Pants-of-dog]

Between August 8 and August 21, 2023 (i.e. before the war) the IDF killed at least 6 Palestinians.

It looks like the IDF were doing their own mini October7s long before this war started.

[wat0n]

Between August 8 and August 21, there were also shootings of Israeli civilians that killed 3.

Were those attacks also legitimate resistance, @Pants-of-dog?

[Pants-of-dog]

So it is incorrect to claim that the violence started on October 7.

[JohnRawls]

So it is incorrect to claim that the violence started on October 7.

Violence against the Jews started somewhere in the early Christian times arguably even before that during the Roman empire with Hadrian and and even before that.

Violence in Palestein/Israel started somewhere in the early years of the 20th century even before the WW1.

Where should we go back to to find out the real date of the start, start, start of the violence?

[QatzelOk]

Violence against the Jews started somewhere in the early Christian times...

And Jewish violence against non-Jews started long before that.

Let's admit that Abrahamic religions (especially the first two) are mostly "feel-good" texts for the genocidal slaves of money.

[JohnRawls]

And Jewish violence against non-Jews started long before that.

Let's admit that Abrahamic religions (especially the first two) are mostly "feel-good" texts for the genocidal slaves of money.

I mean if you wanna put it that way then you have to explain the Roman eradication of Israel.

[Pants-of-dog]

Violence against the Jews started somewhere in the early Christian times arguably even before that during the Roman empire with Hadrian and and even before that.

Violence in Palestein/Israel started somewhere in the early years of the 20th century even before the WW1.

Where should we go back to to find out the real date of the start, start, start of the violence?

So you agree that using October 7 is not logical.

It seems the main reason for choosing that date is to blame Hamas.

If you want to choose a start date, then pick the first episode of violence that has an effect on the modern ongoing genocide.

[QatzelOk]

I mean if you wanna put it that way then you have to explain the Roman eradication of Israel.

No I don't. What I was demonstrating is that "it all started October 7" is disingenuous bullshit.

And of course you and wat0n can provide an earlier example of "Jewish suffering" to counter any notion that other non-hegemonic people also have lives to live and dreams to dream.

[JohnRawls]

So you agree that using October 7 is not logical.

It seems the main reason for choosing that date is to blame Hamas.

If you want to choose a start date, then pick the first episode of violence that has an effect on the modern ongoing genocide.

No, I do not agree with it. I am just asking according to your logic how far should we go back?

IDF and PLO had regular shooting matches every year for the last 50 years now or so. But such large escalations are not triggered out of nowhere either by Israel or PLO side. Your whole argument is honestly ridiculous since you are having a "UPSIE I FORGOT" moment that the rockets have been firing before everything exploded in larger than usual numbers and even half a year or more before October 7th everyone knew something was coming. You can go back to twitter or telegram to read some of the analysts be they from Israel, Europe, Middle East etc

Does this make Israel blameless? Obviously not but Israeli retaliation was a certainty after October 7th and it did go overboard. What else can I say. First HAMAS went overboard for its personal and international reasons and then Israel blew a gasket and started to scorch earth the place. Hamas thought that others will get involved to distract Israel or put more pressure on it with some heavy but not so serious losses on their side but they were wrong.

[Pants-of-dog]

No, I do not agree with it.

Then explain to me why we should use that arbitrary date for “when the violence started” when we see plainly that the genocide began before that?

I am just asking according to your logic how far should we go back?

I told you: to the first episode that has an impact on today,

IDF and PLO had regular shooting matches every year for the last 50 years now or so. But such large escalations are not triggered out of nowhere either by Israel or PLO side. Your whole argument is honestly ridiculous since you are having a "UPSIE I FORGOT" moment that the rockets have been firing before everything exploded in larger than usual numbers and even half a year or more before October 7th everyone knew something was coming. You can go back to twitter or telegram to read some of the analysts be they from Israel, Europe, Middle East etc

Does this make Israel blameless? Obviously not but Israeli retaliation was a certainty after October 7th and it did go overboard. What else can I say. First HAMAS went overboard for its personal and international reasons and then Israel blew a gasket and started to scorch earth the place. Hamas thought that others will get involved to distract Israel or put more pressure on it with some heavy but not so serious losses on their side but they were wrong.

I have no idea why you think Hamas thought that others would get involved.

[QatzelOk]

Pants-of-dog, while I do agree with both the content and the spirit of much of what you have written in this thread - and there's lots of text here by you - I would like to insert a little Guy Debord here because I think a brief and refreshing change of narrative is needed.

According to Guy Debord, during this genocide in Palestine.... we will watch the images, write dramatic things, stay up late at night talking about it. We will go to demonstrations about this atrocity, holding signs and waving banners. And we will watch, and we will read, and we will emote.

And when it's all over and all the Palestinians have been killed or expelled, we will go back to watching our screens and waiting for our next spectacle.

And all we will really notice at the demos we attend... is how much media coverage it got.

And then back to watching...

(Iraq being destroyed, Afghanistan being destroyed, Libya being destroyed)

The powers-that-be are not afraid of us.

[wat0n]

So it is incorrect to claim that the violence started on October 7.

Nobody did.

Organized political violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict began in 1920 at the latest, in the Battle of Tel Hai. This is neither new nor controversial.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, the violence began with the imposition of a settler colonialist state shortly after the Balfour Declaration.

[wat0n]

You mean a League of Nations Mandate.

Before that, violence was also seen from time to time in the region although not over Jewish nationalism. Jews understood and had no other choice but to accept their inferior status under the Ottoman Empire (which was settler colonialist).

[Pants-of-dog]

The discussion is about the current violence.

It is not realistic to claim that violence from the Ottoman Empire is still having an impact.

[Potemkin]

So you agree that using October 7 is not logical.

It seems the main reason for choosing that date is to blame Hamas.

If you want to choose a start date, then pick the first episode of violence that has an effect on the modern ongoing genocide.

That would be the Roman destruction of Judea following the Bar Kokhba Revolt, in 132 AD.

[Verv]

Yes, the violence began with the imposition of a settler colonialist state shortly after the Balfour Declaration.

I agree with this.

I had even heard an interpretation that the Balfour declaration was initially designed to create a deal where the upcoming Palestinian state would actively receive Jewish settlers at a certain rate to exist there as a minority within a secular Palestinian state...

Of course, that was... inadequate.