[late]

No, you did not say anything of value and you still can't bring yourself to explain how was ISIS defeated.

I hadn't finished the post.

[wat0n]

@late if you want to iterate backwards, we can also discuss why were settlements established in the first place. But all of that is pointless, just like ISIS, Hamas already exists and is already armed so it needs to be dealt with. And we know how the US dealt with ISIS.

At best, you can join the Biden admin in criticizing Israel for not taken the offer by the US' Arab allies to explicitly commit to two states and let an Arab peacekeeping force and/or the PA itself establish a post-war government. I agree with this and just shows how damaging Netanyahu has been for everyone.

But the ISIS example shows a toppling of Hamas' government is a prerequisite to even think about a post-Hamas government.

[late]

[usermention=41202]

But the ISIS example shows a toppling of Hamas' government is a prerequisite to even think about a post-Hamas government.

When those kids grow up, they will sprint to be recruited to fight.

All you are doing is creating a bumper crop of what you say you don't want.

Enjoy.

[QatzelOk]

I’ve become increasingly convinced that fighting and winning the Second World War drove the Allied powers insane. Losing the War sobered the Germans up, but the Allies became “giddy with success”, and lost their fucking minds.

Yes, "the Allies" were driven crazy by the door prizes they got for winning WW2: the prizes that "the Allies" got were:

1. Israel ("the Allies" control the land of the Gods)

2. Bretton Woods banking monopoly ("the Allies" get money for nothing)

3. Media monopoly (the lies of "the Allies" are the truthTM for everyone else)

Look at how crazy "the Allies" are acting now that their possession of these three things in jeopardy.

.

[JohnRawls]

All Empires in human history make a lot of enemies over time. To think building empires is about respecting other groups with less power or land or whatever is foolish.

That is why I find it stupid that people do not learn from the past. Empire is a bad choice. Do not be wasteful, oppressive, overbearing and demanding. Cooperate, respect, and share. With equality on the mind for all people.

The other stuff leads to collapse.

Also being biased and only seeing defects in your enemies and not the very same people whom you think are the heroes John.

Human beings are human beings. Not stupid good guys vs bad guy narratives. The USA empire in Latin America is savage and terrible.

If you want to turn a blind eye to that and then get surprised when you get thrown under the bus down the road? It is being seriously erroneous and naive.

People being biased about Israeli colonialism and taking over land and removing people by force. It is an old tactic. Makes a lot of enemies.

I mean, Aztecs were extremely savage to their subjects requesting large amount of population for their sacrifices every period of time/Yearly i Guess. Also they waged wars just purely to capture prisoners and to sacrifice them. By modern estimates, they yearly sacrificed somewhere between 20k-250k people depending on the year and what was going on. So uhhh, no wonder so many joined Cortez to fight back against the Azteks.

[Saeko]

I mean, Aztecs were extremely savage to their subjects requesting large amount of population for their sacrifices every period of time/Yearly i Guess. Also they waged wars just purely to capture prisoners and to sacrifice them. By modern estimates, they yearly sacrificed somewhere between 20k-250k people depending on the year and what was going on. So uhhh, no wonder so many joined Cortez to fight back against the Azteks.

You guys can sneer at Aztec religion all you want, but no one can deny that the world's been getting hotter ever since the sacrifices stopped.

[JohnRawls]

You guys can sneer at Aztec religion all you want, but no one can deny that the world's been getting hotter ever since the sacrifices stopped.

Actresses seem to have also become uglier since Epstein died and Wenstein got sentenced.

[wat0n]

When those kids grow up, they will sprint to be recruited to fight.

All you are doing is creating a bumper crop of what you say you don't want.

Enjoy.

At least German and Japanese kids didn't, after 1945. The postwar matters, too.

[Tainari88]

I mean, Aztecs were extremely savage to their subjects requesting large amount of population for their sacrifices every period of time/Yearly i Guess. Also they waged wars just purely to capture prisoners and to sacrifice them. By modern estimates, they yearly sacrificed somewhere between 20k-250k people depending on the year and what was going on. So uhhh, no wonder so many joined Cortez to fight back against the Azteks.

Well, the Roman Empire crucified and tortured over its Empire a lot of people. Does that make that society the most savage the world has ever known? When it brought a lot of other advancements to the world.

If you study torture and human sacrifice around the world John? It happened in a lot of societies.

I think you want to think that humans as a whole are or can be categorized as these guys are civilized, these guys are savage and primitive, these guys did this or that.

In reality it is much more complex John.

And trying to think that human behavior is about you being encased in your own culture and thinking that the cultures you do not know at all somehow can be placed in the civilized and good, and savage and bad...is for nonthinkers and always will be John.

The Aztecs, were from Atzlan. A fictional place in the Northern part of Mexico and the American Southwest. They were newcomers to the Valley of Mexico. The Mayans were there before the Aztecs. The Aztecs spoke a specific language called Nahuatl. They still speak it in the Valley of Mexico to this very day.

They took over between :

The Aztec Empire was a confederation of three city-states established in 1427: Tenochtitlan, city-state of the Mexica or Tenochca, Texcoco, and Tlacopan, previously part of the Tepanec empire, whose dominant power was Azcapotzalco.

When did the Aztecs establish an empire?
Establishment of the Aztec empire. Under the ruler Itzcóatl (1428–40), Tenochtitlán formed alliances with the neighbouring states of Texcoco and Tlacopan and became the dominant power in central Mexico.

If the Spanish arrived in 1521, which they did. That means the Aztecs had been in power for a relatively short amount of time.

How did the Aztecs become an empire?
The Aztecs expanded their empire through military conquest and sustained it through tributes imposed on the conquered regions. Every 80 days, the new subjects of the Aztecs had to pay tributes to Tenochtitlan. As for the Aztec society, it was very complex. It was socially divided between the nobility and the populace.Apr 9, 2018

So making their neighbors pay high taxes and taking a lot of their people to rip their hearts out and sacrifice them to the gods of the Aztec culture like Quetzalcoatl, was part of the reason they were hated deeply.

Going in to communities and nations and taking their hard earned wealth, killing their most productive members and bleeding them dry in military campaigns does not friends make John.

Now, the modern American Empire does invade, set up terms that favor the wealthy only, and force everyone to pay high taxes, and then incessant wars in order to keep their dominance going is a modern version of it. The good part is that the religion changed. One from blood sacrifice to Christianity. The Romans were into torturing and killing people and using terror to keep control of the rebellious groups they wanted to control.

That is not very different eh?

What is interesting is that you tend to not see the same behavior in a group that has been deemed human. You see savagery in the ones whom the ones controlling the narrative say are outside of normal human behavior. But if you study human history deeply? Blood sacrifice and sacrificing human beings and torturing them even in a display of gory power....has happened a lot in human history. Genghis Khan, and the Crusades, and so many others.

Why can't you see the parallels John? Maybe because it is all very simplistic for you.

It never is that simple.

[paeng]

Reminds me of Zelensky and his "Big Israel" dream:

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/n ... -road-map/

[late]

At least German and Japanese kids didn't, after 1945. The postwar matters, too.

Wow that was dumb.

We didn't turn Germany and Japan into a prison.

Quite the contrary, we made it our job to help them recover.

I would be hard pressed to come up with a worse comparison...

Having said that, that's the road to peace. Look at how the Brits ended generations of hatred and violence in Ireland. You'll also need someone like George Mitchell. There is never a lot of guys like him.

But it can be done.

[Rich]

Look at how the Brits ended generations of hatred and violence in Ireland.

While sympathising with your overall point, Britain didn't run an apartheid system in northern Ireland, at least not in the late twentieth century. At the start of "The Troubles" there was wide scale discrimination against Catholics, but this by the local loyalist administrations not the national government back in London. So Catholics in Northern Ireland could vote and indeed did send MPs to the British Parliament, totally different to the Jewish Apartheid state where Jews in the West Bank can vote but Arabs can't.

Pretty much everything the British government gave to the IRA in the 1990s they would have been quite happy to give to the SDLP in the 1970s.

[wat0n]

Wow that was dumb.

We didn't turn Germany and Japan into a prison.

Quite the contrary, we made it our job to help them recover.

I would be hard pressed to come up with a worse comparison...

Instead, the US and the other Allies just occupied them and imposed a palatable Constitution - for you - after the war, made sure they were de-radicalized and kept with weak armies until they had provided guarantees they were now allies. Furthermore, the ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe were kicked out to Germany.

Having said that, that's the road to peace. Look at how the Brits ended generations of hatred and violence in Ireland. You'll also need someone like George Mitchell. There is never a lot of guys like him.

But it can be done.

So the road to peace is a multinational peacekeeping force that will make sure that Gaza remains de-radicalized and aligns with the West or at least its Sunni Arab allies? Yes, that is the actual solution.

And Northern Ireland was also solved by force, by making sure the IRA understood it had zero chance of getting anything by continued terrorism and that those groups unwilling to abide by the agreements would be monitored and subdued by British intelligence (they still are).

[late]

Instead, the US and the other Allies just occupied them and imposed a palatable Constitution - for you - after the war, made sure they were de-radicalized and kept with weak armies until they had provided guarantees they were now allies. Furthermore, the ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe were kicked out to Germany.




So the road to peace is a multinational peacekeeping force that will make sure that Gaza remains de-radicalized and aligns with the West or at least its Sunni Arab allies? Yes, that is the actual solution.

And Northern Ireland was also solved by force, by making sure the IRA understood it had zero chance of getting anything by continued terrorism and that those groups unwilling to abide by the agreements would be monitored and subdued by British intelligence (they still are).

The only way forward is a middle ground. The 2 state solution is pure BS. It's way of saying nothing. Some sort of protectorate where Palestinians have full legal rights, and reparations.



Nobody is going to volunteer to get shot by Israelis. You will have to make peace. I know, alien concept.


Speaking of BS, you're still doing it. Guess that's another alien concept...

[QatzelOk]

...Aztecs were extremely savage to their subjects requesting large amount of population for their sacrifices every period of time/Yearly i Guess. Also they waged wars just purely to capture prisoners and to sacrifice them. By modern estimates, they yearly sacrificed somewhere between 20k-250k people depending on the year and what was going on. So uhhh, no wonder so many joined Cortez to fight back against the Azteks.

The USA sacrifices 40,000 Americans, killed every year for its "Car Company" gods.

It sacrificed 500,000 Iraqi children for its "Oil company" gods.

And it is poised to kill millions more with its "climate change isn't happening gods," and its "wartime theft" gods.

So while it's really easy to smear foreigners who were driven to extinction by Europeans, it's a lot more constructive to discover your own society's evil and destructive behaviors, rather than hiding behind the ostensible historic crimes of "the other."
.

[JohnRawls]

Well, the Roman Empire crucified and tortured over its Empire a lot of people. Does that make that society the most savage the world has ever known? When it brought a lot of other advancements to the world.

If you study torture and human sacrifice around the world John? It happened in a lot of societies.

I think you want to think that humans as a whole are or can be categorized as these guys are civilized, these guys are savage and primitive, these guys did this or that.

In reality it is much more complex John.

And trying to think that human behavior is about you being encased in your own culture and thinking that the cultures you do not know at all somehow can be placed in the civilized and good, and savage and bad...is for nonthinkers and always will be John.

The Aztecs, were from Atzlan. A fictional place in the Northern part of Mexico and the American Southwest. They were newcomers to the Valley of Mexico. The Mayans were there before the Aztecs. The Aztecs spoke a specific language called Nahuatl. They still speak it in the Valley of Mexico to this very day.

They took over between :





If the Spanish arrived in 1521, which they did. That means the Aztecs had been in power for a relatively short amount of time.



So making their neighbors pay high taxes and taking a lot of their people to rip their hearts out and sacrifice them to the gods of the Aztec culture like Quetzalcoatl, was part of the reason they were hated deeply.

Going in to communities and nations and taking their hard earned wealth, killing their most productive members and bleeding them dry in military campaigns does not friends make John.

Now, the modern American Empire does invade, set up terms that favor the wealthy only, and force everyone to pay high taxes, and then incessant wars in order to keep their dominance going is a modern version of it. The good part is that the religion changed. One from blood sacrifice to Christianity. The Romans were into torturing and killing people and using terror to keep control of the rebellious groups they wanted to control.

That is not very different eh?

What is interesting is that you tend to not see the same behavior in a group that has been deemed human. You see savagery in the ones whom the ones controlling the narrative say are outside of normal human behavior. But if you study human history deeply? Blood sacrifice and sacrificing human beings and torturing them even in a display of gory power....has happened a lot in human history. Genghis Khan, and the Crusades, and so many others.

Why can't you see the parallels John? Maybe because it is all very simplistic for you.

It never is that simple.

Sure but there was no Cortez to challange the Roman empire. That is not honest okay, there were nobody who could unite all of Romes enemies but there were Cortez like challangers who managed to unite locally, just Roman empire and republic was very large. Also Rome had a system of patronage of client states that made a lot of them actually close allies and client kings didn't necessary pay with money but also in army recruits instead of money like the Batavians if I remember correctly which constituted a large chunk of the Pretorian guard especially at the early stages. Roman system wasn't really as one sided as the Aztek system and provided "civilization" and progress so to speak in exchange for those payments.

Although Rome was pretty savage also hence I named them in the top 3 of the most cruelest.

[wat0n]

The only way forward is a middle ground. The 2 state solution is pure BS. It's way of saying nothing. Some sort of protectorate where Palestinians have full legal rights, and reparations.



Nobody is going to volunteer to get shot by Israelis. You will have to make peace. I know, alien concept.

No need to if the peacekeepers are effective.

Speaking of BS, you're still doing it. Guess that's another alien concept...

What part of what I said is historically inaccurate?

[late]

No need to if the peacekeepers are effective.

Wolf, chicken coop...

[QatzelOk]

...Although Rome was pretty savage also hence I named them in the top 3 of the most cruelest....

What exactly is your ranking based on? Do you have accurate data regarding each cruel act of every empire in History?

Or are you just formulating some kind of taxonomy based on your feelings?

Feelings respond to propaganda, by the way.

soundtrack

[wat0n]

Wolf, chicken coop...

Note the same thing was done with both Germany and Japan and indeed the US army was prepared to fight a resistance if necessary.