[Puffer Fish]

Many people keep saying that the U.S. is a dangerous place, and that it's due to liberal guns laws, but why are they completely ignoring Latin America?


An American man from New York City travelled to the country of Chile on vacation. (Chile is in Latin America) He saw a mural painted on the side of a building and got closer to take a picture. What he didn't realize was he was in bad neighborhood; it wasn't safe for him to be there.

Santiago police at the time were watching the building for illegal activity.
Police believe Garvin had just finished dinner downtown before he was killed.
"They told us my son was innocently walking down the street, paused for a moment, and took a snapshot of a building in a drug-infested area," Garvin's father told the New York Post. "Immediately following that, three gentlemen came across the street, grabbed my son and stole his phone, and shot him three times, and he died on the scene."

Garvin, 38 years old, was Black African American, lean and tall, with a big and muscular body build, so it may have been that the criminal group assumed he was part of another gang and perceived him as a threat.

Eric Garvin Jr. reportedly moved to Staten Island from Maryland to attend law school. He worked for the New York City Council and the Mayor's Office of Criminal Justice. Some of Garvin's work under former Mayor Bill de Blasio includes combatting gun violence throughout the city.

(source: 38-Year-Old Shot, Killed After Taking Picture During Vacation In Chile Santiago, Chile, travelnoire.com, Parker Diakite, Jan 27, 2023 )

It's ironic that a man who comes from an American city, plagued with gun crime, goes to another country on vacation, not knowing any better, and is a shot dead there.

from the article:
"
Over the last year, Chilean officials have grappled with the uptick in gun violence. A report from the organization InSight Crime shows homicides in Chile grew by more than 32 percent in 2022 from the previous year. 2022 marked one of the country’s deadliest ever years.

When Garvin Jr. traveled to Chile, the State Department listed the Latin American country as "Level 2: Exercise increased caution in Chile due to civil unrest." The travel advisory does not describe the growing gun violence problem at the time of this report.

"Chile has been experiencing growing violent crime for several years, so this is not new," says man's father, Garvin Sr. "The fact that the U.S. State Department has been silent on violence in Chile is gross negligence."

He adds, "Our recommendation also includes highlighting Yungay and other neighborhoods as dangerous." ​
"

So the father is saying someone should have warned them about the gun violence in Chile.


Chile requires all civilians to register firearms and undergo background checks. It has been illegal for civilians to own semiautomatic guns.

The registration only authorizes its bearer or holder to maintain the firearm in the place declared, either his residence, his place of employment, or the place that he intends to protect. In Chile the law authorizes the person to have a firearm and to keep it in a fixed place. Only in some special cases, in which the person has been shown to be in danger, can a person carry a firearm on his person.
(source: M1911.ORG, Volume 12, Issue 1, Winter 2017, International Focus: Gun Laws in Chile, Harwood Loomis, Ivan Marinkovic)

"Chile has one of the strictest sets of regulations in the world," said Ennio Mangiola, the president of the Chilean Gun Shop Owners Association.
The murder of a police officer last week on the outskirts of Santiago, has revived the debate about gun ownership in Chile. Chile's president, the progressive Gabriel Boric, announced during a public address on June 1 that he would seek a total ban on firearm ownership by civilians.
(source: Poorly armed Chile joins world anti-gun debate, laprensalatina.com, Patricia Nieto Mariño, June 16, 2022)

It sounds like Chile has some very strict gun control laws that American gun control proponents would salivate at.
Explainer: Gun Laws in Latin America's Largest Economies | AS/COA (as-coa.org)

Question: Should we listen to gun control proponents?
Because even after all the extensive laws and regulations Chile has put in place, their gun violence problem still hasn't ended. And they keep wanting to pass more and more gun laws in Chile, trying to deal with the problem.

[wat0n]

And not just that, the government lies about most crime being committed by legally registered guns. You can have all the tough gun (or drug, or alcohol) laws you want but it's kind of useless if they're easy to break without consequence.

Having said that, I also don't think extremely liberal gun laws like those recently passed in Florida where civilians won't need a permit or training for carrying are any better.

[late]

Many people keep saying that the U.S. is a dangerous place

If you're gonna use idiots as sources, guess what you're going to look like?

I knew you could figure that out, do something about it...

What we actually say is it's more dangerous. The leading cause of death among children is guns now.

But wait, it gets better.. Among developed countries, we are the worst, and not by a small margin. Gun mortality is worse than what we had in Vietnam, in a way, we are at war with ourselves.

That's insane.

[MistyTiger]

Question: Should we listen to gun control proponents?

Guess who pays the anti-gun control supporters? The NRA. What is the NRA about? Gun rights. Is there any literature penned by NRA members about gun control? No. The NRA opposes gun control.

They oppose gun control because they believe that gun control equals reduction of gun sales, less gun owners to teach gun safety to, right?
The NRA opposed the Federal Assault Weapons Ban that was signed into law by President Clinton in 1994. It expired in 2004 and was not renewed. So if we're seeing school shootings with assault weapons, we can look at the AWB and realize that this is one of the causes. The government could renew it, but Republicans and the NRA will fight hard to stop it from being renewed.

The NRA claims to be the oldest civil rights organization in the US. But if people keep dying from gunshot wounds, are their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness protected? What about their families and loved ones? Are their rights protected by law? I think not. You cannot enjoy your rights if you're dead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... ssociation

[late]

Guess who pays the anti-gun control supporters? The NRA. What is the NRA about? Gun rights. Is there any literature penned by NRA members about gun control? No. The NRA opposes gun control.

They oppose gun control because they believe that gun control equals reduction of gun sales, less gun owners to teach gun safety to, right?
The NRA opposed the Federal Assault Weapons Ban that was signed into law by President Clinton in 1994. It expired in 2004 and was not renewed. So if we're seeing school shootings with assault weapons, we can look at the AWB and realize that this is one of the causes. The government could renew it, but Republicans and the NRA will fight hard to stop it from being renewed.

The NRA claims to be the oldest civil rights organization in the US. But if people keep dying from gunshot wounds, are their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness protected? What about their families and loved ones? Are their rights protected by law? I think not. You cannot enjoy your rights if you're dead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... ssociation

After gun makers started giving money to the NRA, the NRA started opposing everything. They are shills for gun companies now, they only pretend to represent gun owners.

But they were always scummy. I was a NRA member when I was young, but they were disgusting, so I quit.

[MistyTiger]

After gun makers started giving money to the NRA, the NRA started opposing everything. They are shills for gun companies now, they only pretend to represent gun owners.

But they were always scummy. I was a NRA member when I was young, but they were disgusting, so I quit.

The NRA when it was founded was for a good purpose. But along the way, it got so corrupted.

The NRA might as well issue coupons to increase weapon sales. Like offering $150 off on a weapon if you join. I know that sounds bad but I had that thought earlier.

[Godstud]

Yep. The NRA, just like Feminism, seemed like a good idea at the time..

@Puffer Fish You are comparing Chile to the USA. Are you also comparing it in terms of wealth and economy, or are you ignoring those factors?

USA looks good compared to a 3rd world country in crime statistics, but compared to other 1st world countries, it looks like a train wreck.

The evidence for gun control has been out for a long time, and it shows that it works in reducing gun crime.

[Puffer Fish]

You are comparing Chile to the USA. Are you also comparing it in terms of wealth and economy, or are you ignoring those factors?

USA looks good compared to a 3rd world country in crime statistics, but compared to other 1st world countries, it looks like a train wreck.

The reason why the U.S. looks like an aberration in the statistics is because, in many respects, the U.S. is much like a First World country coexisting side by side with a Third World country.
In other words, if you were to mix a First World and Third World country together, through simple arithmetic addition or averaging, in the statistics, it would look similar to the U.S.

Chile is actually one of the most prosperous countries in Latin America.
(only the small country of Uruguay has a higher per capita GDP, and they are 88% white and only have a population of 3.4 million people, which is smaller than Chile's capital city)

[Pants-of-dog]

The existing gun laws in Chile were written and enacted by a free market right winger. So it would be incorrect to argue that this is a leftist thing.

The gun murder rate in Chile is significantly lower than in the USA. The USA had 4.46 gun homicides per 100 000 people. Chile had 1.92.

Economically, the USA and Chile are very similar, with the main difference being the size of the economy; i.e. the US has a much larger one.

[wat0n]

Homicide has been going up in Chile though, but even then total homicide rates are still a bit lower than in the US (not for long if the current trends continue).

[Pants-of-dog]

In terms of Latin America, Chile’s gun homicide rate is the third lowest. Only Cuba and Bolivia have lower gun homicide rates. These numbers are from 2015, and do not reflect the recent increase.

[wat0n]

I know, but it's important. This guy got killed recently, 2015 is too far back in time.

I also think it's better to look at the total homicide rate, as countries with tight gun regulations may see homicides using other means (e.g. stabbings, choking, vehicular attacks, etc) that would have been carried out using guns if the perpetrators had had access to them.

[Pants-of-dog]

The recent increase in crime has been occurring mostly in the north of the country, around the port of Iquique, and is mostly due to organized crime gangs trying to control the smuggling routes in the port.

Apparently, well to do Chileans like their hard drugs and sex slaves and so a market is being established.

The gun homicide rate in Santiago (where this unfortunate murder took place) has not seen a dramatic increase in gun homicide.

[wat0n]

Not sure about gun homicide, but there has definitely been an increase in the homicide rate in the Commune of Santiago*, which is where Eric Gavin Jr. was killed. In 2015, it was 3 per 100k inhabitants, last year it stood at 10.4 per 100k inhabitants.

There has also been an increase in the overall rate for Chile as a whole, from 2.9 in 2015 to 4.7 in 2022.

Source: https://cead.spd.gov.cl/estadisticas-delictuales/

*Note: In Chile, communes are like an US local government for rural and suburban area, while in large cities they are more like a Ward/Community Area. Large cities don't really have a city-wide government. The Commune of Santiago houses the Chilean equivalent of the White House, Supreme Court and many of the most relevant institutions (not Congress though, that's in another city). Eric Gavin Jr. was murdered in Barrio Yungay ("Yungay Neighborhood"), which is where our current President is currently residing in.

[ingliz]

American man goes to Chile, gets shot and killed

Englishman goes to America, gets shot and killed.

21 Jan 2022 — Police are investigating the death of a British doctor in Atlanta, Georgia after he was hit by a stray bullet while lying in bed.

[late]

Many people keep saying that the U.S. is a dangerous place, and that it's due to liberal guns laws, but why are they completely ignoring Latin America?

Gun death, Chile, 2.79

Gun death, USA, 12.21



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... death_rate

[Pants-of-dog]

Santiago, Chile: 4.9 per 100,000*

Although Santiago continues to be one of the least violent capitals in Latin America, with a homicide rate of 4.9 for every 100,000 inhabitants according to the Chilean crime and analysis center (Centro de Estudios y Análisis del Delito - CEAD), the capital reported106 violent deaths in 2019, including a number due to violence during political protests.

Santiago's 17 percent increase in homicides when compared to the 2018 rate of 1.7, is actually attributed to the government's violent response to the protests that began in October which have resulted in more than 30 deaths.

The United Nations’ Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) sent a mission to report on the violent clashes between the security forces and the protestors that concluded that the police responded in a “fundamentally repressive manner,” particularly considering its “use of less lethal ammunition.”

Chile is also a key country for the transshipment of narcotics, and its urban centers, particularly Santiago, provide a consumer market for cocaine and marijuana, as well as synthetic drugs like LSD and ecstasy. Nevertheless, Santiago’s street gangs manage drug distribution with relatively little violence.

https://insightcrime.org/news/analysis/ ... 20due%20to

[wat0n]

That 4.9 rate is for the city (Provincia) as a whole, not the Commune of Santiago specifically, which is downtown Santiago and (again) where the Chilean key government institutions are located at.

Even that rate is higher than in 2015 for the city as a whole (when it stood at 3.7 per 100k inhabitants), mirroring the overall national trend.

[Pants-of-dog]

The thread is about gun homicide.

The killings by cops were done using guns. It is important to focus on gun deaths and not confuse the issue by using the general homicide rate.

[wat0n]

Where I find the stats from Chilean sources?