[ckaihatsu]

Russia is most definitely an empire, and has been since at least the 17th century, or even since Ivan III in the 15th century.

It's been *different things*, at different times.

2 History
2.1 Early history
2.2 Kievan Rus'
2.3 Grand Duchy of Moscow
2.4 Tsardom of Russia
2.5 Imperial Russia
2.6 Revolution and civil war
2.7 Soviet Union
2.7.1 World War II
2.7.2 Cold War
2.8 Post-Soviet Russia (1991–present)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia

[Truth To Power]

It's been *different things*, at different times.

But is now and has for centuries been an empire.

[ckaihatsu]

But is now and has for centuries been an empire.

No, I certainly wouldn't say that, looking at the outline from Wikipedia.

[Rancid]

No, I certainly wouldn't say that, looking at the outline from Wikipedia.

When you're argument hinges on the definition of words, you have no argument.

Just admit that you support the murder of children and mass rape that is happening in Ukraine. Just admit you support imperialism. Admit you support might makes right. Admit that you believe stronger powers should always exert themselves over smaller powers.

[ckaihatsu]

When you're argument hinges on the definition of words, you have no argument.

What's supposed to be the *medium* for my arguments, if not *words* -- !

[ckaihatsu]

Just admit that you support the murder of children and mass rape that is happening in Ukraine. Just admit you support imperialism. Admit you support might makes right. Admit that you believe stronger powers should always exert themselves over smaller powers.

I have no interests against the people of Ukraine. I also don't support *fascists* there, and it's the *U.S.* that's historically supported fascists there:

A telephone call was leaked of US diplomat Victoria Nuland speaking to the US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt about the future of the country, in which she said that Klitschko should not be in the future government, and expressed her preference for Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who became interim Prime Minister. She also casually stated "fuck the EU."[351][352] German chancellor Angela Merkel said she deemed Nuland's comment "completely unacceptable".[353] Commenting on the situation afterwards, State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said that Nuland had apologized to her EU counterparts[354] while White House spokesman Jay Carney alleged that because it had been "tweeted out by the Russian government, it says something about Russia's role".[355]

In February 2014 IBTimes reported, "if Svoboda and other far-right groups gain greater exposure through their involvement in the protests, there are fears they could gain more sympathy and support from a public grown weary of political corruption and Russian influence on Ukraine."[356]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

Stop making baseless accusations. Thanks.

[Rancid]

What's supposed to be the *medium* for my arguments, if not *words* -- !

How about reality. No matter how hard you try to (re)define the word "empire" to try and absolve yourself of supporting mass murder and rape. The fact of the matter is, you support mass murder and rape.

[Rancid]

I have no interests against the people of Ukraine. I also don't support *fascists* there, and it's the *U.S.* that's historically supported fascists there:

So you buy the denazification bullshit. GOt it.

Who is committing mass murder and rape in Ukraine?

[ckaihatsu]

How about reality. No matter how hard you try to (re)define the word "empire" to try and absolve yourself of supporting mass murder and rape. The fact of the matter is, you support mass murder and rape.

So you buy the denazification bullshit. GOt it.

Who is committing mass murder and rape in Ukraine?

Bullshit. I don't support Putin, and I never used the word 'denazification'.

What are you going to do about NATO aggression / expansion?

[Rancid]

What are you going to do about NATO aggression / expansion?

Who is attacking Ukraine right now?

THis is the sort of statement an imperialist would make by the way.

[ckaihatsu]

Who is attacking Ukraine right now?

You tell me.

Here's from earlier in the thread. Note the *promises made* by NATO, not to expand, all the way back to 1990.

After the Cold War

Main article: Russia–NATO relations

The Revolutions of 1989 and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in 1991 removed the de facto main adversary of NATO and caused a strategic re-evaluation of NATO's purpose, nature, tasks, and focus on the continent of Europe. The shift started, with the 1990 signing in Paris of the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe between NATO and the Soviet Union, which mandated specific military reductions across the continent, which continued after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in December 1991.[43] European countries then accounted for 34 percent of NATO's military spending; by 2012, that had fallen to 21 percent.[44] NATO also began a gradual expansion to include countries of Central and Eastern Europe and extended its activities into political and humanitarian situations that had not been thought of as NATO concerns.

An expansion of NATO came with German reunification on 3 October 1990, when the former East Germany became part of the Federal Republic of Germany and of the alliance. That had been agreed in the Two Plus Four Treaty earlier that year. To secure Soviet approval of a united Germany remaining in NATO, it was agreed that foreign troops and nuclear weapons would not be stationed in the east. There was no formal commitment in the agreement not to expand NATO to the east, but there are diverging views on whether negotiators gave informal commitments regarding further NATO expansion.[45][46][47] Jack Matlock, the American ambassador to the Soviet Union during its final years, said that the West gave a "clear commitment" not to expand, and declassified documents indicate that Soviet negotiators had the impression that NATO membership was off the table for countries such as Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Poland.[48] Hans-Dietrich Genscher, the West German foreign minister, said in a conversation with Eduard Shevardnadze, "For us, however, one thing is certain: NATO will not expand to the east."[48] In 1996, Gorbachev wrote in his Memoirs that "during the negotiations on the unification of Germany they gave assurances that NATO would not extend its zone of operation to the east,"[49] and he repeated that view in an interview in 2008.[50] However, in 2014 Gorbachev stated the opposite: "The topic of 'NATO expansion' was not discussed at all [in 1990], and it wasn't brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Western leaders didn't bring it up, either."[45][51] According to Robert Zoellick, a US State Department official involved in the Two Plus Four negotiating process, that appears to be a misperception, and no formal commitment regarding enlargement was made.[52] Harvard University historian Mark Kramer also rejects that an informal agreement existed.[45][53] Memorandums published by the National Security Archive in 2017 indicate that multiple assurances against NATO expansion were indeed made to Soviet leaders at the highest levels in 1990 and 1991.[54]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... e_Cold_War

viewtopic.php?p=15238817#p15238817

[ckaihatsu]

What are you going to do about NATO aggression / expansion?

THis is the sort of statement an imperialist would make by the way.

So according to this twisted logic of yours, someone who wants to hold NATO to its original charter, that of a *Cold War* one (and now the USSR is no more), makes that person an 'imperialist'?

You just want to do *name-calling*, that's all. It's what you were good at in kindergarten, and apparently you never left it.

[Rancid]

So according to this twisted logic of yours, someone who wants to hold NATO to its original charter, that of a *Cold War* one (and now the USSR is no more), makes that person an 'imperialist'?

If you support Russia invading a sovereign nation, that is what makes you an imperialist. Clearly, you do.

The nations that joined NATO joined voluntarily. Are you against nations choosing to join an alliance they wish to join? If yes, that makes you an imperialist for wanting to prevent sovereign nations from doing what they believe is best for themselves.

If you are for forcing nations like Estonia/Poland/anyone to drop out of NATO against their will... you are in fact an imperialist. YOu want to impose your will over others. You are an imperialist. Just accept it dude.

There's no twisted logic here, only denial on your part.

There are a lot of fake leftist like you on the internet.

[ckaihatsu]

If you support Russia invading a sovereign nation, that is what makes you an imperialist. Clearly, you do.

Check your vision -- you're *seeing things*.

The nations that joined NATO joined voluntarily. Are you against nations choosing to join an alliance they wish to join? If yes, that makes you an imperialist.

If you are for forcing nations like Estonia/Poland/anyone to drop out of NATO against their will... you are in fact an imperialist. YOu want to impose your will over others. You are an imperialist. Just accept it dude.

Why are you supporting *international bullying* -- ? Are you a *bully*? You *don't have to* support NATO expansionism.

dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in 1991

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... e_Cold_War

[Rancid]

Check your vision -- you're *seeing things*.

You deny Russia is invading Ukraine? Perhaps you are also crazy then.

Why are you supporting *international bullying* -- ? Are you a *bully*? You *don't have to* support NATO expansionism.

I support the concept of sovereignty and territorial integrity. You don't. That is the type of person that is an imperialist, such as yourself.

You are also a fake leftist. An imperialist in leftist clothes.

[ckaihatsu]

You deny Russia is invading Ukraine? Perhaps you are also crazy then.



I support the concept of sovereignty and territorial integrity. You don't. That is the type of person that is an imperialist, such as yourself.

Fuck NATO.

[Rancid]

Fuck NATO.

That's fine. You brought up NATO. The real point here is that you support Russia's invasion. One in which is it committing mass murder and rape. Again, you are in complete denial of your support for old school imperialism.

[ckaihatsu]

That's fine. You brought up NATO. The real point here is that you support Russia's invasion. One in which is it committing mass murder and rape. Again, you are in complete denial of your support for old school imperialism.

Blah blah blah -- you just want to hear yourself say stuff that you're imputing onto *me*.

I do *not* support NATO expansionism. The *result* of NATO encroachment is Russia's right to self-defense, even pre-emptively.

Try to stay focused here, because every *centimeter* that you give to greenlighting attacks on Russia (geopolitics), is a *mile* that you give to NATO expansionism eastward.

[Rancid]

Blah blah blah -- you just want to hear yourself say stuff that you're imputing onto *me*.

I do *not* support NATO expansionism. The *result* of NATO encroachment is Russia's right to self-defense, even pre-emptively.

Try to stay focused here, because every *centimeter* that you give to greenlighting attacks on Russia (geopolitics), is a *mile* that you give to NATO expansionism eastward.

I think you need to look in the mirror and figure out what your personal values really are.

You should really think about if you really are for the betterment of humanity since you condone mass murder and rape.

[Truth To Power]

No, I certainly wouldn't say that, looking at the outline from Wikipedia.

You wouldn't say a lot of things that are indisputably true.