[Crantag]

:hmm: So are you guys pushing for Taiwan's independence of the same mind on Palestine, or does that not count?

Somehow I think that you guys have selective support for countries that want their independence. Why isn't USA supporting Palestinian independence?

I am not pushing Taiwan independence, I think Taiwan really is independent (defacto).

I can't get too wrapped up in any of the political bullshit anymore though.

I bet most people don't know about this stuff, though.

Edit: And of course I support Palestine independence, but while I'm not sure you were really addressing me, your generalization was a little steep.

[boomerintown]

Somehow I think that you guys have selective support for countries that want their independence. Why isn't USA supporting Palestinian independence?

Its pretty unproblematic to recognize Palestine for those who want to.

Recognizing Taiwan however, puts you at risk of Chinese retribution. The country is very likely to be invaded by China within the coming decade unless it is protected. So it is not really comparable.

Also Israel-Palestine conflict is a whole other topic, and a very complicated one. And even if you are on the wrong side on that, that doesnt mean you should be on the wrong side of the China-Taiwan conflict too.

[Beren]

All politicians should be "in opposition" before they get to try their hand at writing the rules. Not just me.

So this statement also suggests that we don't do politics correctly

It only suggests that I'd have you in opposition rather than in government even in a post-capitalist and reasonable world because being critical of government appears to be your most useful and basic attribute.

However, it may be so only when you're not in government.

[Pants-of-dog]

For both Taiwan and South Korea, the US also encouraged or influenced their change for good.

1. Answer the question: was supporting dictatorship and human rights abuses a good thing?

2. What good things did they do?

[Rich]

Please note that openly supporting dictatorships and human rights abuses is exactly what people accuse communists of doing.

Pot, please meet kettle.

If the Bolsheviks had actually delivered on the promise of communism. If they had actually delivered the heaven on earth, if they had unleashed human potential and creativity, then the temporary overthrow of democracy, the temporary suppression of free speech, the temporary suspension of the rule of law and the temporary institution of collective punishment and red terror would have been justified.

Actually in the 1950s the case for communism looked much stronger. Not only were countries like South Korea, nasty brutal dictatorships, denying even the most crude attempts at respecting its citizens' rights, they were also not even doing particularly well on the economic development front.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, all the oppression and human rights abuses caused by the USA are entirely justified because of what some turn if the century Russians did.

[late]

I'd credit nuclear weapons with that. European powers leapt at the chance to fight each other during WWI despite having plenty of trade passing between them and didn't sincerely pursue peace until after nukes were developed.

No doubt nukes played a role. But Europe morphed into the EU... Prob should have led with that. The other structures, like the EU, and all the deals we have in Europe, played a significant role.

But replicating that in Asia won't be easy.

[Patrickov]

1. Answer the question: was supporting dictatorship and human rights abuses a good thing?

Given what those Commies have become, are you seriously suggesting the USA is actually supporting dictatorship and human rights abuses rather than those opposing them?

2. What good things did they do?

Encouraging idea of democracy which is workable, unlike those provided by Commies which degenerated into Stalinism.


You are spewing China / Russia apologist ideas. You have no grounds to question my support of the West.

[Pants-of-dog]

Given what those Commies have become, are you seriously suggesting the USA is actually supporting dictatorship and human rights abuses rather than those opposing them?

I am not suggesting anything.

US support of oppression and human rights abuses in Taiwan and other countries is a historical fact.

Is this a good thing, as you seem to be saying?

Encouraging idea of democracy which is workable, unlike those provided by Commies which degenerated into Stalinism.

Please provide an example.

You are spewing China / Russia apologist ideas. You have no grounds to question my support of the West.

This is the same personal attack you always make. Ignored.

[Patrickov]

I am not suggesting anything.

US support of oppression and human rights abuses in Taiwan and other countries is a historical fact.

Is this a good thing, as you seem to be saying?

Yes, because afterwards they become democracies and still receives US support.

The way you try to break earlier stuff and magnifying it as an atrocity, is in effect taking things out of context, which is downright malicious.

If you don't want to view things as a whole then you are just an anti-US apologist. I am sick of your wicked tricks.

[wat0n]

...A response he already got ITT, @Patrickov

Let's not forget @Pants-of-dog regards multi party democracy as a CIA regime change tool.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes,

Fair enough.

because afterwards they become democracies and still receives US support.

Not necessarily.

Saudi Arabia is not becoming a democracy any time soon.

Did Taiwan become a democracy because of the USA or in spite of it?

The way you try to break earlier stuff and magnifying it as an atrocity, is in effect taking things out of context, which is downright malicious.

If you don't want to view things as a whole then you are just an anti-US apologist. I am sick of your wicked tricks.

Personal attack. Ignored.

@wat0n

Personal attack. Ignored.

[wat0n]

Weird, I thought you were enjoying calling others hypocrites. But when your own hypocrisy is called out, you call it a personal attack

[Beren]

Its pretty unproblematic to recognize Palestine for those who want to.

Recognizing Taiwan however, puts you at risk of Chinese retribution. The country is very likely to be invaded by China within the coming decade unless it is protected. So it is not really comparable.

Also Israel-Palestine conflict is a whole other topic, and a very complicated one. And even if you are on the wrong side on that, that doesnt mean you should be on the wrong side of the China-Taiwan conflict too.

Palestine should be a legitimate state, while Taiwan only exists due to some people's secession from China after they lost a civil war, and it wouldn't even exist as an independent state without the assistance of the US 7th Fleet, so it's not comparable indeed. Taiwan is as if the Confederation could have kept existing on an island close to the US and originally being part of the US, thanks to the British Navy.

As to whether which side is right or wrong, one has only to look at if which side the US supports, then one clearly sees the wrong side in both cases.

[Patrickov]

Not necessarily.

Saudi Arabia is not becoming a democracy any time soon.

Did Taiwan become a democracy because of the USA or in spite of it?

From what I see it is a strong case of "because".

In fact, many non-democratic regimes who relied on USA collapsed because they didn't change. South Vietnam was a very good example.

The problem is that you are seeing Taiwan as exception, while Saudi Arabia is closer to the exception.

The USA would fail (e.g. in Myanmar or Afghanistan) but at least they have the will.

Personal attack. Ignored.

I am trying very hard not to.

In fact, accusing an act as taking things out of context and, thus, malicious, is NOT a personal attack.

I am angry with your act (non-personal) more than your stance (personal), even if your act is because of your stance.

[Pants-of-dog]

From what I see it is a strong case of "because".

In fact, many non-democratic regimes who relied on USA collapsed because they didn't change. South Vietnam was a very good example.

The problem is that you are seeing Taiwan as exception, while Saudi Arabia is closer to the exception.

The USA would fail (e.g. in Myanmar or Afghanistan) but at least they have the will.

I am not seeing Taiwan as an exception. I assume that the USA did what was in its own interest in both cases.

Why do you think the USA helped Taiwan attain democracy?

[Patrickov]

I am not seeing Taiwan as an exception. I assume that the USA did what was in its own interest in both cases.

Why do you think the USA helped Taiwan attain democracy?

What's wrong with "self interest"? Democracy is essentially a respect of everybody's self interest.

Why do you think "doing good out of own interest" is "not a good thing"?

I think that phenomenon means that entity's "own interest" is good enough for me to support it.

[Pants-of-dog]

What's wrong with "self interest"? Democracy is essentially a respect of everybody's self interest.

Why do you think "doing good out of own interest" is "not a good thing"?

I think that phenomenon means that entity's "own interest" is good enough for me to support it.

Self-interest becomes a problem when it is a cause for hurting others. For example, it is in the self interest of the CCP to do what will consolidate their power. So, that is what is often wrong with self-interest.

In the case of the USA, this means that it has often destroyed democracy, and ignored the self-interest of others.

Note that I never claimed that doing good out of self-interest is not a good thing.

Please answer this question: Why do you think the USA helped Taiwan attain democracy?

[wat0n]

Certainly because it was in USA's interest. It helps its domestic and foreign policy as it aids hemispheric and internal cohesion to be seen as a leader of democracies.

Has any country become democratic because it was in the self-interest of a communist regime?

[Pants-of-dog]

Please note that when I ask why people think the USA was beneficial in this instant, I am wondering if they have historical facts or if they merely have speculations about why they think the interests of the USA were served.