- 08 Aug 2019 17:26
#15024536
The standard of living of classical civilization beat iron age civilization, so they dropped paganism for Roman polytheism/pantheism, and then on to Christianity.
Christianity isn't native to Europe. It came out of Judea. Same with Judaism. Islam is also not European, and there are a lot of Muslims in Europe, so the idea that Europe isn't tolerant of non-native religions is absurd.
Unneeded. Christianity taught charity, which wasn't widely practiced among Pagans. So the better living standards of classical civilization and the charitable nature of Christianity probably made paganism and iron age civilization substantially less popular. America used to be populated by hunter-gatherer tribes, but most people today would consider that a vagabond life of homelessness and poverty.
Christianity is altogether too tolerant these days. Tolerance isn't necessarily a superior thing.
Christianity itself is not native.
The United States has freedom of religion. If you think you can make it rain by dancing, have at it. If you don't like someone, you can make a voodoo doll of them and stick pins in it. Nobody will stop you in the US, unless your religion involves human sacrifice or something--but even then, you can do that if you call it abortion.
One aspect of the Reformation was an anti-clerical thrust that involved teaching peasants to read so that they could read the bible themselves. Grammar schools, Gutenberg's press and Manutius' movable type revolutionized printing. So the Reformation spawned mass literacy. It was a huge leap forward for humanity.
Indeed. Almost all of them have had really bad luck with extremist sects of Islam.
Quite right. In fact, one of the effects of mass literacy was the re-introduction of Greek texts, translated into native tongues. Additionally, the restoration of some Greek texts lost at Alexandria that were copied into Arabic and re-introduced to the West. Mass literacy also led to great leaps in mathematics. Europe abandoned the Roman numeral system for the Indo-Arabic numeral system, and quickly improved on Algebra--developing variables, derivatives/integrals or calculus, etc. Modern accounting was born at the time--the double ledger, double entry book keeping system. Quite a lot happened as a result of the Reformation.
We're already seeing it again in the United States and Europe as people have decided they've had enough of the post-World War II governments of technocrats who think they are entitled to rule against the will of the people.
I can. My grandfather used to live in Beirut for a few years when he was part of a US delegation to the Central Treaty Organization--the so-called Baghdad Pact.
A lot of the modern welfare state in the US is from the "Social Gospel" movement, which relied heavily on Christian charity.
Yes. It does. Elementary schools were developed to teach people to read, so that they could read the Bible themselves and not rely on clerics. Before the Reformation, most people were illiterate. After the Reformation, mass literacy became common. That's why a push toward more less autocratic governments became common.
"Content" is a pretty hazy concept. Osama bin Laden wasn't exactly wanting for any material goods, and yet he ended up leading people who were similarly relatively well off but leading lives they felt had no purpose to do horrible things. Mohammed Atta, for example, was trained as an architect. It does take some wit to learn how to pilot an airliner.
Christianity was originally spread by the Apostles, such as St. Paul, aka Saul of Tarsus. On the contrary, Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire for hundreds of years.
The enlightenment depended on the Renaissance. Quite a bit happened in Italian city states. Da Vinci was Italian, not French. So was Michelangelo. So was Galileo. Luca Pacioli, Leondardo da Fibonnacci, etc. You're glossing over quite a bit here. Columbus, Vespucci, Caboto, Verrazzanno, Marco Polo, etc. In fact, a big impetus for the discovery of the "New World" was that navigators were trying to get around the high transit taxes imposed by the Muslim states. It was simply cheaper to circumnavigate the globe. So they did, and that spawned a few significant changes, I would say.
Kind of like mass shooters...
Osama bin Laden? Vladimir Lenin? Che Guevara? Joseph Mengele?
Palmyrene wrote:I wonder why that is? Weren't there alot of pagans, gnostics, and other interesting sects there? Why did they disappear? Hmm...
The standard of living of classical civilization beat iron age civilization, so they dropped paganism for Roman polytheism/pantheism, and then on to Christianity.
Palmyrene wrote:None of those are native and the pagans you see now are recent converts and don't follow the same religion as historical pagans.
Christianity isn't native to Europe. It came out of Judea. Same with Judaism. Islam is also not European, and there are a lot of Muslims in Europe, so the idea that Europe isn't tolerant of non-native religions is absurd.
Palmyrene wrote:You forgot to put popular in quotations.
Unneeded. Christianity taught charity, which wasn't widely practiced among Pagans. So the better living standards of classical civilization and the charitable nature of Christianity probably made paganism and iron age civilization substantially less popular. America used to be populated by hunter-gatherer tribes, but most people today would consider that a vagabond life of homelessness and poverty.
Palmyrene wrote:Pretending that Islam is uniquely intolerant while professing the superiority of Western Christianity is exactly that.
Christianity is altogether too tolerant these days. Tolerance isn't necessarily a superior thing.
Palmyrene wrote:Not after Christianity. Only recently do you see many religions in Europe and most of them either aren't native or are revivalist.
Christianity itself is not native.
Palmyrene wrote:Sub-Sahara Africa and the Americas called, they want their religions back.
The United States has freedom of religion. If you think you can make it rain by dancing, have at it. If you don't like someone, you can make a voodoo doll of them and stick pins in it. Nobody will stop you in the US, unless your religion involves human sacrifice or something--but even then, you can do that if you call it abortion.
Palmyrene wrote:It's comparable to the Sunni Shia conflict not some great act of progress.
One aspect of the Reformation was an anti-clerical thrust that involved teaching peasants to read so that they could read the bible themselves. Grammar schools, Gutenberg's press and Manutius' movable type revolutionized printing. So the Reformation spawned mass literacy. It was a huge leap forward for humanity.
Palmyrene wrote:I'm also pretty sure there's alot more than 17. The 17 I listed were Copts, Maronites, Orthodox, Assyrians, Muwahhiden, Kurds, Yazidis, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Hindus, Chaldeans, Mandaeans, Shabakis, Feylis, Bahai, Armenians, Yarsanians, and Jews but there's probably alot more than that I don't know about.
Indeed. Almost all of them have had really bad luck with extremist sects of Islam.
anasawad wrote:Actually the enlightenment came as a result of the reformation.
Quite right. In fact, one of the effects of mass literacy was the re-introduction of Greek texts, translated into native tongues. Additionally, the restoration of some Greek texts lost at Alexandria that were copied into Arabic and re-introduced to the West. Mass literacy also led to great leaps in mathematics. Europe abandoned the Roman numeral system for the Indo-Arabic numeral system, and quickly improved on Algebra--developing variables, derivatives/integrals or calculus, etc. Modern accounting was born at the time--the double ledger, double entry book keeping system. Quite a lot happened as a result of the Reformation.
anasawad wrote:The key driver of enlightenment in Europe was the people getting essentially tired of the Corruption of the clergy and their constant abuses of power. We just need to wait a little longer for that to start happening in the middle east.
We're already seeing it again in the United States and Europe as people have decided they've had enough of the post-World War II governments of technocrats who think they are entitled to rule against the will of the people.
Palmyrene wrote:I suggest you don't take the accusations of Westerners, who couldn't point to Lebanon on a map, to heart.
I can. My grandfather used to live in Beirut for a few years when he was part of a US delegation to the Central Treaty Organization--the so-called Baghdad Pact.
Palmyrene wrote:And I'd like to define progress because religions don't really progress, they just take the backseat from time to time.
A lot of the modern welfare state in the US is from the "Social Gospel" movement, which relied heavily on Christian charity.
Palmyrene wrote:That makes no sense. Just because Britain was Protestant at the time doesn't mean the Enlightenment was caused by the Reformation.
Yes. It does. Elementary schools were developed to teach people to read, so that they could read the Bible themselves and not rely on clerics. Before the Reformation, most people were illiterate. After the Reformation, mass literacy became common. That's why a push toward more less autocratic governments became common.
Palmyrene wrote:No it can't. No one is going to blow themselves up if they're content with life.
"Content" is a pretty hazy concept. Osama bin Laden wasn't exactly wanting for any material goods, and yet he ended up leading people who were similarly relatively well off but leading lives they felt had no purpose to do horrible things. Mohammed Atta, for example, was trained as an architect. It does take some wit to learn how to pilot an airliner.
Palmyrene wrote:Islam spread initial by conquest while Christianity was absorbed by other empires as a state religion.
Christianity was originally spread by the Apostles, such as St. Paul, aka Saul of Tarsus. On the contrary, Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire for hundreds of years.
Palmyrene wrote:In fact, the core of the Enlightenment (to the extent that Paris, the intellectual center of the Enlightenment was called "the city of lights") happened in Catholic France.
The enlightenment depended on the Renaissance. Quite a bit happened in Italian city states. Da Vinci was Italian, not French. So was Michelangelo. So was Galileo. Luca Pacioli, Leondardo da Fibonnacci, etc. You're glossing over quite a bit here. Columbus, Vespucci, Caboto, Verrazzanno, Marco Polo, etc. In fact, a big impetus for the discovery of the "New World" was that navigators were trying to get around the high transit taxes imposed by the Muslim states. It was simply cheaper to circumnavigate the globe. So they did, and that spawned a few significant changes, I would say.
Palmyrene wrote:When they did interviews with the parents of these middle classmen, the parents all discussed how they were shut-ins, had very little friends, weren't in a relationship, etc.
Kind of like mass shooters...
Palmyrene wrote:Ideology only blinds people who have nothing to lose.
Osama bin Laden? Vladimir Lenin? Che Guevara? Joseph Mengele?
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