[redcarpet]

Thx Wat0n, as usual Haretz proves it's #1 for Israeli journalism, etc. This stupid rhetorical game played by that....person....beggars belief....almost.

[Pongo]

Thx Wat0n, as usual Haretz proves it's #1 for Israeli journalism, etc. This stupid rhetorical game played by that....person....beggars belief....almost.

Ever since the paper was bought by a former Nazi German family, the paper is read in Israel as propagating the German interests and vision in the region. For this, many if its chief editors and writers refused the deal and left the paper. Yoav Karni, its former chief foreign correspondent called the paper treacherous.


Germany loves its holocaust *narrative*. For ages they say Germany has responsibility for the Palestinians because they are "the victims's victim", opening the way for delegitimization of Israel and joining Palestinian propaganda. BN recall their past cooperation disturbed their task to block guilt by portraying the Arabs as victims of the Jews, and not victims of their own savage deeds.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 89,00.html

Haaretz's 'Nazi problem'

German publishing group that purchased 25 percent of Israeli daily cooperated with Nazis
Eldad Beck

COLOGNE – Controversial deal: The decision to sell 25 percent of Haaretz Group's shares to newspaper and book publisher DuMont Schauberg last week has come under scrutiny as a result of the German publisher's ties with the Nazi regime.

The publishing group's owner at the time, Kurt Neven DuMont – the current owner's father – was reportedly a member of the Nazi party, while his newspapers advanced Nazi ideology. As a result, the publishing house was among the only private ones in Germany whose operations were never outlawed by Hitler.

The publisher's official history makes no mention of historical facts that tie the family to the Nazi regime, even though Kurt Neven DuMont was a member of the Nazi party since 1937. In 1944, he received a prestigious decoration – the same kind also awarded to Gestapo Chief Heinrich Himmler – because he continued to publish newspapers despite heavy allied bombings.

Meanwhile, some historians and journalists claim that the publisher's management has made an effort to prevent various publications regarding the company's and owners' problematic past.

'No choice but to comply'

However, Israel's former Ambassador to Germany Avi Primor has come to current owner Alfred Neven DuMont's defense. In an article he wrote, Primor described the assistance he received from Neven DuMont in his dealings with Germany's business and political elites and said the publishing group's owner has supported various projects in Israel.

Haaretz publisher Amos Schocken responded to the reports, saying that he is aware that Kurt Neven DuMont was a member of the Nazi party. He noted that although the newspaper chain received orders from the Nazis, it had no choice but to comply with the dictates of a dictatorial regime.

"Alfred Neven DuMont (the current owner of the publishing house) has no Nazi past. He was 12 when the war broke out and almost 18 when it ended," Schocken said. "His actions since he has become an adult speak for themselves. There's no reason to impose on him, or the company he now leads, responsibility for a period before his time. This has nothing to do with finding out the historical truth, which is something that should always be done."

Netanyahu responds to critics: Absurd to ignore mufti's role in Holocaust:

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.681580

Netanyahu stressed that there are many testimonies of the mufti's involvement in the Final Solution. He quoted parts of the testimony given by Adolf Eichmann's deputy Dieter Wisliceny at the Nuremberg trials. Wisliceny said that "the mufti played an important role in the Final Solution and was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jews."

According to Netanyahu, there is an attempt by some academic researchers to provide apologetic explanations for the mufti's role during the Holocaust, but added there are other researchers who reference the testimonies against al-Husseini.

"I didn't mean to absolve Hitler from responsibility, but to show that the father of the Palestinian nation wanted to destroy the Jews even without territories, without occupation and without settlements," the prime minister said. "Unfortunately, [al-Husseini] is still a revered figure in Palestinian society and in their books which are filled with incitement." This incitement, Netanyahu said, "started with him and continues today – not in the same manner, but it's the root of the problem."

He added that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas aggrandizes the mufti's name."It's important to recognize historical facts and not to ignore them – not then and not now," he said. He emphasized that he plans to demand John Kerry pressure Abbas to stop the incitements when he meets the Secretary of State in Berlin on Thursday. That incitement, Netanyahu said, was the source of the violence.

SS-Hauptsturmführer Dieter Wisliceny testified (a variation of) the following at the Nuremberg Trials

In my opinion, the Grand Mufti, who has been in Berlin since 1941, played a role in the decision of the German government to exterminate the European Jews, the importance of which must not be disregarded. He has repeatedly suggested to the various authorities with whom he has been in contact, above all before Hitler, Ribbentrop and Himmler, the extermination of European Jewry. He considered this as a comfortable solution for the Palestine problem.

In his messages broadcast from Berlin, he surpassed us in anti-Jewish attacks. He was one of Eichmann's best friends and has constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say that, accompanied by Eichmann, he has visited incognito the gas chamber in Auschwitz."


What ThirdTerm post

It was Barry Rubin and Wolfgang Schwanitz who originally came up with the theory that Haj Amin al-Husseini was actually responsible for the Holocaust, by instigating Hitler to commit the mass murder of the Jews in Europe. "Nazis, Islamists, and the Making of the Modern Middle East" (2014) was published by Yale University Press, a university press associated with Yale University, and Barry Rubin was a notable historian as far as I know, which makes it difficult to debunk their theory. Rubin and Schwanitz came up with the thesis after some extraordinary research using a lot of new archive material, from which the Grand Mufti's incriminating quotes were sourced. Binyamin Netanyahu simply repeated what he read in his controversial speech.

During the 1930s and 1940s, a unique and lasting political alliance was forged among Third Reich leaders, Arab nationalists, and Muslim religious authorities. From this relationship sprang a series of dramatic events that, despite their profound impact on the course of World War II, remained secret until now. In this groundbreaking book, esteemed Middle East scholars Barry Rubin and Wolfgang G. Schwanitz uncover for the first time the complete story of this dangerous alliance and explore its continuing impact on Arab politics in the twenty-first century. Rubin and Schwanitz reveal, for example, the full scope of Palestinian leader Amin al-Husaini’s support of Hitler’s genocidal plans against European and Middle Eastern Jews. In addition, they expose the extent of Germany’s long-term promotion of Islamism and jihad. Drawing on unprecedented research in European, American, and Middle East archives, many recently opened and never before written about, the authors offer new insight on the intertwined development of Nazism and Islamism and its impact on the modern Middle East.
http://www.amazon.com/Nazis-Islamists-M ... 0300140908

[Rich]

Wow this has really set off a media storm amongst the world's Twitterati and just because Netanyahu had the audacity to suggest that a Muslim might have influenced Hitler. God forbid that anyone should cross the great taboo and start asking not just whether Hitler was influenced by a Muslim, but whether he was a Muslim. Now I'm not saying that Obama is not a secret Muslim, but it strikes me as beyond dispute that there is far more evidence that Hitler was a Muslim than Obama is.

[TerryOfromCA]

Germany: We are responsible for the holocaust.

Thats just as dumb the second time as it was the first time you posted it. Learn to read English. You can be goaded into doing something by someone else and still be responsible for doing it.

[TerryOfromCA]

Read again:

............al-Husseini requested German assistance with the Arab independence movement and Nazi support in the extermination of any Jewish homeland. For his part, Hitler promised to aid that liberation movement, but went still further, promising that the aim of Nazi Germany would be the elimination of all Jews living under British protection once such territories had been conquered. This was described by al-Husseini in his own memoirs:

Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish people in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: "The Jews are yours." (Ami Isseroff and Peter FitzGerald-Morris, "The Iraq Coup Attempt of 1941, the Mufti, and the Farhud")

Source: LINK
More:

........According to the testimony of Adolf Eichmann’s chief deputy Dieter Wisliceny (who was hanged for war crimes) the Mufti played a role in encouraging the Final Solution and was a close friend and advisor to Eichmann in the Holocaust’s implementation across Europe. Wisliceny testified further that al-Husseini had a close association with Heinrich Himmler and visited the gas chambers at Auschwitz, where he exhorted the staff to be even more dedicated in its important work.

To assist the practical slaughter of Jews and Christians, al-Husseini built an army of Muslim volunteer units for the Waffen-SS (the combat units of the dread SS) to operate for the Nazi cause in the Balkans. While the appeal for volunteers from among Muslims always struggled to meet the demands for new recruits, al-Husseini was able to organize three divisions of Bosnian Muslims who were then trained as elements of the Waffen-SS. The largest radical Muslim unit was the 13th Waffen-SS Handzar ("Dagger") division that boasted over 21,000 men. They were joined by the Bosnian 23rd Waffen-SS Kama Division and the Albanian Skanderbeg 21st Waffen-SS Division. The Muslim Waffen-SS forces fought across the Balkans against Communist partisans and then assisted in the genocide of Yugoslavian Jews and in the persecution and slaughter of Gypsies and Christian Serbs in 1944 and 1945. The brutality extended to Catholics as well, for the Muslim Waffen-SS cut a path of destruction across the Balkans that encompassed a large number of Catholic parishes, churches, and shrines and resulted in the deaths of thousands of Catholics. By the end of the war, al-Husseini’s fanatical soldiers had killed over 90 percent of the Jews in Bosnia.......

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

When it comes to history we need to rely more on conspiracy theories, hearsay by minor officials trying to save themselves, and our feelings about things and people we never experienced. Skinster, how ridiculous indeed that you would link to the Germans talking about how they were responsible for the Germans organizing, planning, and carrying out the Holocaust. My internet link, in defense of an Israeli politician notorious for lying and manipulating ignorant morons, shows it was really a Palestinian!

[Heinie]

Benjamin Netanyahu is playing the "Holocaust" card. We have heard it many times like a broken record in order to excuse Israel's actions in its war against the Palestinians. The statement is an obvious attempt to blame the Final Solution on today's Palestinians and anyone with brains can see this. Netanyahu made the inflammatory statement for American and European consumption at a meeting of the World Zionist Congress in West Jerusalem. His claimed that “Hitler didn’t want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews.” The time in question was 1941 when the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, met Hitler, two years into the Second World War of which Hitler had already predicted in January 1939 that should there be such a war it will mean "the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11fl8AykFqo

[wat0n]

Thats just as dumb the second time as it was the first time you posted it. Learn to read English. You can be goaded into doing something by someone else and still be responsible for doing it.

Indeed, but the Mufti didn't goad the Nazis into carrying out the extermination of European Jewry. The annihilation of European Jews was on the table long before al-Husseini had any relevance:

When Hell asked Hitler what he intended doing if he ever had full freedom of action against the Jews, his response was:

"If I am ever really in power, the destruction of the Jews will be my first and most important job. As soon as I have power, I shall have gallows after gallows erected, for example, in Munich on the Marienplatz-as many of them as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged one after another, and they will stay hanging until they stink. They will stay hanging as long as hygienically possible. As soon as they are untied, then the next group will follow and that will continue until the last Jew in Munich is exterminated. Exactly the same procedure will be followed in other cities until Germany is cleansed of the last Jew!" (quoted in John Toland, Adolf Hitler. London: Book Club Associates, 1977, p.116)

The Mufti was, however, involved in the recruitment of SS Muslim SS troops in Bosnia and chances are that he likely had information regarding the aims and scope of Nazi policy towards the Jews. It is also likely he didn't mind it either. It is also known the Mufti worked to impede Jewish emigration from Nazi occupied Europe to the Mandate of Palestine.

But, the Mufti most certainly didn't come up with the idea of destroying the Jews. He simply played along.

[Rich]

Obviously Netanyahu is simplifying things. I expect he is also being diplomatic and avoiding mention of the Turks:

The Wall Street Journal: Why Hitler Wished He Was Muslim

The Nazis presented Turkey as stronger for having massacred its Armenians and expelling its Greeks. “Who,” Hitler asked in August 1939, “speaks today of the extermination of the Armenians?”

What is surely beyond dispute is the systematic way the establishment has sought to play down and conceal the links between Islam and Fascism. Why in the general orgy of sudo anti fascist handwringing do we never ask why the world stood by while the self styled defender of Islam launched his genocidal campaign against the Ethiopian Christians.

[steve71]

Benjamin Netanyahu is playing the "Holocaust" card. We have heard it many times like a broken record in order to excuse Israel's actions in its war against the Palestinians. The statement is an obvious attempt to blame the Final Solution on today's Palestinians and anyone with brains can see this. Netanyahu made the inflammatory statement for American and European consumption at a meeting of the World Zionist Congress in West Jerusalem. His claimed that “Hitler didn’t want to exterminate the Jews at the time, he wanted to expel the Jews.” The time in question was 1941 when the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, met Hitler, two years into the Second World War of which Hitler had already predicted in January 1939 that should there be such a war it will mean "the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11fl8AykFqo

Heinie is the only person to have made a sensible contribution to this topic. At a time of simmering violence and tension in Jerusalem, Netanyahu's statement is tantamount to incitement of violence against the Palestinian people. The outrage should not be about the inaccuracy of Netanyahu's statement, but that he chose to make that statement at this particular time.

[Zamuel]

Benjamin Netanyahu is playing the "Holocaust" card. We have heard it many times like a broken record in order to excuse Israel's actions in its war against the Palestinians.

Yeah ... I think in this case it's more about renewing sympathy for Israel (and himself) than about the Palestinians. Obviously Hitler had to delineate between the Jews and the Muslims in seeking Arab support against the British in North Africa. To what extent that conversation evolved, we'll probably never know ... But crediting the Arabs with the innovation of German Racial Policy is absurd.

I doubt Netanyahu's statement is going to inspire the transfer of any "German Guilt" to the refugees assaulting Europe. But that may have been a consideration ... If he's got any brains ? He'll drop the subject flat and move on.

Zam

[TerryOfromCA]

Benjamin Netanyahu is playing the "Holocaust" card. .. . . . .

- Its a helluva card too, and a good one, and a real one, and on that nobody should ever joke about or forget.
- Its is a proven fact that Hitler's Mufti was instrumental and worked together with Hitler. For people in this thread to go down the same old Nazi Antisemitic road of attacking the "feelthy Jew" and defending the Islamo-Fascist turns my stomach. Some of you people really make me sick.

[Heinie]

- Its a helluva card too, and a good one, and a real one, and on that nobody should ever joke about or forget. ...

Citing "The Holocaust" in order to deflect attention away from Israel's brutal occupation of the Palestinian Territories is brazen exploitation of the victims of the Final Solution in order to vilify Palestinians today. Netanyahu has no sense of shame in his latest absurd attempt to rewrite history.

[skinster]

When it comes to history we need to rely more on conspiracy theories, hearsay by minor officials trying to save themselves, and our feelings about things and people we never experienced. Skinster, how ridiculous indeed that you would link to the Germans talking about how they were responsible for the Germans organizing, planning, and carrying out the Holocaust. My internet link, in defense of an Israeli politician notorious for lying and manipulating ignorant morons, shows it was really a Palestinian!

Islamophobic and other hostile voices in the West often mis­characterise the Arab and Muslim participation in the war as largely or entirely pro-Nazi, while Arab and Muslim societies tend to focus on anti-colonial struggles at the expense of the Second World War.

The record is a complex, mixed and nuanced one, but the overarching fact is that Arab and Muslim involvement in the war was overwhelmingly on the Allied side, and was a significant factor in fighting on the ground. The overwhelming majority joined the cause voluntarily, despite British and French colonialism.

Moroccans estimate that 1,700 of their countrymen participated in the D-Day invasion as part of the Free French Army. This only hints at the scale of North African participation in Allied fighting.

The majority of the French army in North Africa in 1939 and 1940 were Arabs. In the French defeat of June 1940, about 5,400 Arab soldiers were killed fighting on the Allied side, and an estimated 60,000 Algerians, 18,000 Moroccans, 12,000 Tunisians and 90,000 other Muslims were captured by the Germans. It has been estimated that 233,000 North African Muslims were serving in the Free French Army in 1944, and that about 52 per cent of all its troops killed during the final year of the war were Muslims, mostly from North Africa. Some 40,000 North Africans are estimated to have given their lives in fighting for the liberation of Europe in 1944-45.

Not all incidents involving North African troops were glorious, of course. Atrocities in the war took place on all sides and all fronts, and it’s true that Moroccan forces played a major role in mass rapes of Italian women and killing of Italian men following the bitter Battle of Monte Cassino in 1944. The atrocity is still remembered as the “Marocchinate”.

The Allied Muslim contingent from South Asia was even larger. At least half a million Indian Muslims enlisted in the British military during the conflict. At least one-third, if not more, of the British “Indian Army” that fought during the war on many fronts were Indian Muslims – a disproportionately high percentage.

Additional untold numbers were recruited from various Arab states, or among Muslims fighting in the Soviet, Chinese and other Allied armies. Exceptionally few took up arms on the Axis side. About 9,000 Palestinians, for example, joined the British Army during the war.

On the other hand, there were significant groupings with sympathy for Nazi Germany in Arab and Muslim societies. Some of this was clearly driven by anti-colonial sentiment. But at times it clearly crossed the line into outright ideological support, such as by the short-lived Rashid Ali government in Iraq.

The most notorious Arab collaborator with the Nazi regime during the war was the former Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin Al Husseini. Having been plucked from relative obscurity by the British and installed in his clerical post, and then exiled by them from Palestine, he became an avid supporter of Hitler and his murderous anti-Semitism.

However, following the war, after receiving a hero’s welcome in Egypt by the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Husseini quickly slipped into obscurity and played no further role in Palestinian politics until his death. He remains a largely forgotten figure, with even Hamas according him no real historical significance (unlike his still-lionised contemporary Izzedin Al Qassam).

One of the most frequently cited condemnations of Al Husseini was his role in the formation of a Bosnian Muslim SS division. However, as Marko Attila Hoare has demonstrated, the support of large segments of the Bosnian Muslim population and elite was crucial in the victory of the Yugoslav partisans over Nazi puppet regimes.

Moreover, in one of the most startling and underappreciated facts about the war, the only state that came under direct German occupation that had a larger Jewish population at the end of the war than the beginning was also the only Muslim-majority one: ­Albania. Albanian Jews were ­almost entirely saved from the Holocaust because the entire ­society, from the top down, systematically conspired to prevent the Germans from discovering who was Jewish.

The record in German-occupied North Africa was more mixed and less edifying, as Robert Satloff’s research shows. As in most of Nazi-occupied Europe, many North Africans collaborated with the Nazis, or else did nothing, or too little, to resist them or to protect their Jewish neighbours. But others went to great lengths to protect as many Jews as possible. And, as we’ve seen, hundreds of thousands joined the Free French Army to fight the Nazis despite the underlying reality of French colonialism.

Arab and Muslim responses to the Second World War, and their role in the conflict, were enormously varied and include significant instances of glory, shame and ordinary survival. But, it is essential to remember and recognise that huge numbers of Arabs and Muslims fought in the war, and that – in spite of the constant misrepresentation, distortion or downplaying of this reality – they did so almost entirely on the ­Allied side and against Nazi Germany.
http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalco ... th-marking

The mufti’s support for Nazi Germany definitely demonstrated the evils of extremist nationalism. However, the Arabs were not the only chauvinists in Palestine looking to make a deal with the Nazis. At the end of 1940 and again at the end of 1941, a small Zionist terrorist organization known as the Stern Gang made contact with Nazi representatives in Beirut, seeking support for its struggle against the British. One of the Sternists, in a British jail at the time, was Yitzhak Shamir, a future Israeli prime minister.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/books ... html?_r=1&

[Pisa]

The point of Bibi's statement is that the arab leadership of the time hated jews and fought against them everywhere they could, not only in Palestine, long before Israel even existed, the reason for it being the pan-arab nationalism and religious fundamentalism bundled together in a deadly ideology.

The struggle is not - and never was - for a free Palestine, but for a judenrein one. As Arafat himself admitted after Oslo, when he compared between the accords he just signed and the Hudaybiyyah peace treaty.

[pugsville]

It was the Zionists who right from the beginning, from Hezl on down who were committed to the Idea of transfer, the driving out of the Native population of Palestine,

[TerryOfromCA]

It was the Zionists who right from the beginning, from Hezl on down who were committed to the Idea of transfer, the driving out of the Native population of Palestine,

The Native population of Palestine? Need I remind you that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is built on top of the Jewish Temple which is thousands of years old? Jerusalem belongs to the Jews.
- and one other thing that pinheads always forget: Prior to Israel taking back that land in the 60's, Jordan had that land. There was no "Palestine". Did anyone call Jordan occupiers?

[Heinie]

The Native population of Palestine? Need I remind you that the Al-Aqsa Mosque is built on top of the Jewish Temple which is thousands of years old? Jerusalem belongs to the Jews.

That Jews were in Palestine millennia ago gave them no right to immigrate from eastern Europe in large numbers after the Second World War to displace the indigenous Arabs and dispossess them of their land.

... Prior to Israel taking back that land in the 60's, Jordan had that land. There was no "Palestine". Did anyone call Jordan occupiers?

Israel did not take back the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as that territory never belonged to the Jewish state to begin with.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

Hitler

World War II? The Palestinians did that, too. Hitler may or may not have had a lengthy conversation with certain Muslims when he was a younger man: whether this really happened or not doesn't matter, I feel it strongly in my dangus.

I would ask everyone to refrain from spreading false rumors and untrue assertions such as that the Palestinians aren't responsible for everything awful throughout modern history. I'm looking at you, skinster! Make like a tree with your "facts" and "truth" things!

[Ganeshas Rat]

The sad stupid Hitler had been seating on the stool while thinking what to do with Jews. Then the smart beautiful bearded sage appeared and said him:
"Just burn them".
"Of course!" Hitler exclaimed. "How could I even to not think about it!"
And he immediately ordered to his servants to pull logs, fuel, incinerators, shower curtains, all that stuff.
And that's how the wise men of the East put Western morons to shame again.