[Rei Murasame]

Relevant to this issue of fighting:

The ideal lover of flowers is he who visits them in their native haunts, like Taoyuenming [all celebrated Chinese poets and philosophers], who sat before a broken bamboo fence in converse with the wild chrysanthemum, or Linwosing, losing himself amid mysterious fragrance as he wandered in the twilight among the plum-blossoms of the Western Lake. 'Tis said that Chowmushih slept in a boat so that his dreams might mingle with those of the lotus. It was the same spirit which moved the Empress Komio, one of our most renowned Nara sovereigns, as she sang: "If I pluck thee, my hand will defile thee, O flower! Standing in the meadows as thou art, I offer thee to the Buddhas of the past, of the present, of the future."

However, let us not be too sentimental. Let us be less luxurious but more magnificent. Said Laotse: "Heaven and earth are pitiless." Said Kobodaishi: "Flow, flow, flow, flow, the current of life is ever onward. Die, die, die, die, death comes to all." Destruction faces us wherever we turn. Destruction below and above, destruction behind and before. Change is the only Eternal,--why not as welcome Death as Life? They are but counterparts one of the other,--The Night and Day of Brahma. Through the disintegration of the old, re-creation becomes possible. We have worshipped Death, the relentless goddess of mercy, under many different names. It was the shadow of the All-devouring that the Gheburs greeted in the fire. It is the icy purism of the sword-soul before which Shinto-Japan prostrates herself even to-day. The mystic fire consumes our weakness, the sacred sword cleaves the bondage of desire. From our ashes springs the phoenix of celestial hope, out of the freedom comes a higher realisation of manhood.

Why not destroy flowers if thereby we can evolve new forms ennobling the world idea? We only ask them to join in our sacrifice to the beautiful. We shall atone for the deed by consecrating ourselves to Purity and Simplicity.

Even if we don't want to fight, it will be asked of us. Care must be taken however to make sure that we are fighting legitimately and correctly.

[Orestes]

Yeah, slaughtering human beings is really noble . I bet Serrano in private was a holocaust denier.

Indeed he was.

Serrano denied that an Aryan can ever be truely cruel since cruelty is supposedly a trait of racial mongrels. In The Golden Band he claims the number of alleged Holocaust victims should be seen in light of the whole cosmic story he outlines, with "6" being the archetypical symbol of the Jewish Unconscious.

Or something

Holocaust deniers make me laugh because they come across as little pussies dancing around the issue. I have some more respect for those Neo-Nazis who admit it happened, and say that this is a good thing.

[Far-Right Sage]

Most realize it is not central, but an extremely miniscule issue. The ethnic killings involving Jews and some others within the occupied territories and Germany proper happened, and are no earth-shattering historical act. They never were, although that was the propaganda at the time. The exact number killed and quibbling over the six million figure in the back and forth game between what I refer to as the "holocaust industry" and some revisionist historians who are either National Socialist in orientation or typically white nationalists is something which does not particularly interest me - although it does not hurt to have dedicated men such as Ernst Zündel around who are passionate about the cause. In any event, anyone who understands their history, as I know you do Orestes, understands the not unique but in fact repeated pattern of largescale animosity which easily boils over against minority groups within a country which exist or are perceived to exist in roles of privilege while the masses languish. The topic of the conversation doesn't always have to be Jews, but can include anyone from the Chinese of Malaysia to the Indians Idi Amin oversaw the expulsion of from Uganda.

Now, in reference to this "fascism is inherently atheistic" set of assertions, nothing could be further from the truth. Essentially, religion considering the political crisis at the time and war which came to envelop our societies - religion was the last topic to be considered for a suitable conformity among fascists, and one sees the deeply Catholic Croatian fascists of Pavelic's movement and the Belgian fascists of Degrelle's Rexist party, one sees the devout Romanian Orthodox who faithfully followed the Captain to death and into the ranks of the Romanian Army alongside priests to resist the communist virus on the Eastern Front, and one sees fascists from Japan to China to India to Norway, as well as many many Germans who believed in an indigenous faith and cultivation of indigenous spiritual rites and traditions. That this or that fascist was or is a Christian or a Muslim as opposed to a pagan, or so and so was an atheist is really besides the point while we are discussing an ideology and a philosophy with incredible diversity as it spans continents and peoples with naturally different interests.

Furthermore, fascists unlike Marxists on the left do not seek to eliminate the unique expressions of racial and cultural diversity in this world, or force alien ideas on certain cultures in the name of eliminating borders, promoting egalitarianism, or other such nonsense which is detrimental to the actual interests of the best and the brightest societies and individuals anyway. When Mussolini stated that "Fascism is not an article for export" the gist of this statement was that Italian fascism could not entirely be recreated down to the letter in another society (hence why German fascism, despite Hitler's deep admiration for Mussolini and what had been achieved in Italy eleven years prior to his own official accession, shared many similar tenets and a foundational premise, but manifested in many different ways than its Mediterranean cousin), but that all peoples interested in elevating the cause that is their nation through self-reliance, collective organization, and spiritual and cultural regeneration should fine tune the system which works for them adapted more specifically and calibrated properly to their own society. In that sense (certain values-sets proliferating to every corner of the world) fascism can be called universalist as is liberalism or Marxism, but it differs entirely in that it is nationalist rather than internationalist and either genuinely egalitarian (as is Marxian socialism) or faux-egalitarian (as is liberal-capitalist plutocracy), and as such it doesn't seek to bust down that sacred barrier which is identity among different peoples of the world.

The fascist view of peoples thriving in their own set conditions and elevating their societies to the level which they deserve while we are all participants in a broader struggle is not dissimilar to the Hindu conception of respect for all faiths as all faiths serve similar functions and move people inexorably toward the greatest prize which is self-realization. The ideology will never look one hundred percent the same in Finland as it will in Laos, and for that matter, nor will any religion made and run by humans until the ego is overcome and this earth experiences profound and systemic change.

Hence why the fight is so utterly critical to begin with.

The fight as those stalwart and loyal to the end Norwegian fascists of the Nasjonal Samling properly articulated:

[Rei Murasame]

I won't get into any discussion on the holocaust (in my view it is an event that obviously happened in reality), but I thought I'd just touch on this:

Rei's ideal religion.

Indiana Jones is pretty lame. I thought though, that you were going to taunt me by making a comparison to this:

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

One of the superficial similarities between Japanese fascists and the Sunni Jihadists (the one thing that I respect about the Jihadists). It would've been an interesting comparison, but instead you went with Indiania Jones, lame.

If I were to use an 'old school' movie clip about the concept of 'you do not like it but you have to', it would be this clip: [Link 1]
Or this: [Link 2]

If you're going to go with 'cheesy but awesome', you have to do it right.

[Red_Bull]

Most realize it is not central, but an extremely miniscule issue. The ethnic killings involving Jews and some others within the occupied territories and Germany proper happened, and are no earth-shattering historical act. They never were, although that was the propaganda at the time. The exact number killed and quibbling over the six million figure in the back and forth game between what I refer to as the "holocaust industry" and some revisionist historians who are either National Socialist in orientation or typically white nationalists is something which does not particularly interest me - although it does not hurt to have dedicated men such as Ernst Zündel around who are passionate about the cause. In any event, anyone who understands their history, as I know you do Orestes, understands the not unique but in fact repeated pattern of largescale animosity which easily boils over against minority groups within a country which exist or are perceived to exist in roles of privilege while the masses languish. The topic of the conversation doesn't always have to be Jews, but can include anyone from the Chinese of Malaysia to the Indians Idi Amin oversaw the expulsion of from Uganda.

Now, in reference to this "fascism is inherently atheistic" set of assertions, nothing could be further from the truth. Essentially, religion considering the political crisis at the time and war which came to envelop our societies - religion was the last topic to be considered for a suitable conformity among fascists, and one sees the deeply Catholic Croatian fascists of Pavelic's movement and the Belgian fascists of Degrelle's Rexist party, one sees the devout Romanian Orthodox who faithfully followed the Captain to death and into the ranks of the Romanian Army alongside priests to resist the communist virus on the Eastern Front, and one sees fascists from Japan to China to India to Norway, as well as many many Germans who believed in an indigenous faith and cultivation of indigenous spiritual rites and traditions. That this or that fascist was or is a Christian or a Muslim as opposed to a pagan, or so and so was an atheist is really besides the point while we are discussing an ideology and a philosophy with incredible diversity as it spans continents and peoples with naturally different interests.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. The Holocaust wasn't just some cliche occurance. It was institutionalized mass murder by the State. This idol who you have as your avatar was a Holocaust denier that claimed Aryans would never do such a thing. Religion is simply an extension of ideology independent of its core pholosophical principles. The only reason religion gets attached to ideology is because brainwashed people are products of their environment and confuse it for culture. You're born German, not Catholic or some other religion. Those are just abstract concepts acquired later. I suspect fascists like yourself cling to supernatural nonsense as a means to cope with the failures of the movement.

[Rei Murasame]

Really? I am surprised that you didn't make the comparison, after seeing that I placed in bold-type "Why not destroy flowers if thereby we can evolve new forms ennobling the world idea?"

But if you don't want to make the comparison, then fine. Just I was anticipating that you might try to do so - since people have done it before - and was then a little surprised when you didn't. It goes to show that I can't predict you.

[Sithsaber]

The allah bit is a little distanced, even you said the comparison was superficial. Doctrinally Kali makes more sense in this due to her role as the destroyer and avatar of dissolution and change, and the times before and after material awareness and creation, the void beyond reality and time. The Allah bit is essentially respect my authority, and lop off your hand so the rest of your body isn't thrown into hell along with it.

[Far-Right Sage]

The Holocaust wasn't just some cliche occurance. It was institutionalized mass murder by the State.

Speaking of cliches, I have for many years heard this cliche slogan repeated ad nauseum. It was no more "institutionalized" than the Soviets burning 1,000 Chechen men, women, and children in a barn or the decision to depopulate and wage protracted war against the Aborigine population of Australia to create an environment conducive to expansive living space for white colonists. "Institutionalized" is essentially meaningless in this sense, as all decisions taken formally by acting governments can be referred to as "institutionalized" this or that, and murder is also inappropriate terminology as the definition of murder is killing which is unlawful.

This idol who you have as your avatar was a Holocaust denier that claimed Aryans would never do such a thing.

Yes, I disagree with this position of Serrano and others, but it doesn't move me either way. There are many good folks in the denial movement who have done many great things either for veterans, or for the purpose of facilitating a more balanced historical discussion on the weight of Axis and Allied actions in what is now a post-war world.

Religion is simply an extension of ideology independent of its core pholosophical principles. The only reason religion gets attached to ideology is because brainwashed people are products of their environment and confuse it for culture. You're born German, not Catholic or some other religion. Those are just abstract concepts acquired later. I suspect fascists like yourself cling to supernatural nonsense as a means to cope with the failures of the movement.

One thing I have come to realize is that on the topic of religion, those within the movement who recognize the spiritual component of fascism and subscribe to a specific faith (or simply consider themselves Perennialists and place an emphasis on comparative religion) will not be able to convince many atheists inside and outside of fascism, and vice versa. I believe ideology springs forth from our religious conception of the universe and our role within it, but perhaps you believe the opposite?

One of the superficial similarities between Japanese fascists and the Sunni Jihadists (the one thing that I respect about the Jihadists).

Indeed, the determination and martial spirit they manage to conjure up through the Islamic text is admirable, whether we are discussing Hamas, al-Nusra, Jundullah, the Taliban, etc. It is the ideological banner itself which they rally around which is so destructive and counter-productive to anything but a slavish mindset to perpetuate itself among the Arabs. The majority are resilient and would do well running the street battles for a regenerative Arab social nationalism.

[Rei Murasame]

Doctrinally Kali makes more sense in this due to her role as the destroyer and avatar of dissolution and change, and the times before and after material awareness and creation, the void beyond reality and time.

Well, Hinduism as a whole, always makes more sense. So on that I guess I agree.

[Red_Bull]

Speaking of cliches, I have for many years heard this cliche slogan repeated ad nauseum. It was no more "institutionalized" than the Soviets burning 1,000 Chechen men, women, and children in a barn or the decision to depopulate and wage protracted war against the Aborigine population of Australia to create an environment conducive to expansive living space for white colonists. "Institutionalized" is essentially meaningless in this sense, as all decisions taken formally by acting governments can be referred to as "institutionalized" this or that, and murder is also inappropriate terminology as the definition of murder is killing which is unlawful.

I completely agree that it's not a purely unique event. However your implication that its no big deal in the scheme of things is disturbing.

Yes, I disagree with this position of Serrano and others, but it doesn't move me either way. There are many good folks in the denial movement who have done many great things either for veterans, or for the purpose of facilitating a more balanced historical discussion on the weight of Axis and Allied actions in what is now a post-war world.

I can sympathize with that. I quite enjoy some of David Irving's research even though I despise the man on a personal level. However it seems you're trying to excuse their willful ignorance by bringing up some nice things they did.

One thing I have come to realize is that on the topic of religion, those within the movement who recognize the spiritual component of fascism and subscribe to a specific faith (or simply consider themselves Perennialists and place an emphasis on comparative religion) will not be able to convince many atheists inside and outside of fascism, and vice versa. I believe ideology springs forth from our religious conception of the universe and our role within it, but perhaps you believe the opposite?

Yes I do believe the opposite. I think if anything an argument could be made that fascism itself is a religion or at the very least a substitue for it. To suggest fascist believe in corporatism because of their spiritual beliefs is hogwash. using your criteria how do you explain the ideology of Marxism which is absent of supernatural nonsense?

[Rei Murasame]

It could be said that fascism gives a very old form of religion, the materialist anchor that it otherwise would not have. So in that sense, fascism is somehow both materialist and religious, a unique trait among ideologies.

[starman2003]

Now, in reference to this "fascism is inherently atheistic" set of assertions, nothing could be further from the truth. Essentially, religion considering the political crisis at the time and war which came to envelop our societies - religion was the last topic to be considered for a suitable conformity among fascists,

The fascists had no choice but to seek christian support or at least toleration; that was an earlier time when the holy hogwash still had mass popular support in several countries, in contrast to Europe more recently. But if they or the greatest of them had really had their way, they would've moved against christianity much more rapidly and aggressively than they did. The holy bs just does not mesh well with a real or aggressive fascist agenda. Fascism was the epitome of real world ambition, war and conquest, the antithesis of "blessed are the meek." It meant adoration of the Great Man in the real world not some unseen myth. Neither the Great Man nor his State wanted competition from some other allegiance, especially one so inherently worthless.

... alongside priests to resist the communist virus...

Dumb as communism (extolling the proletariat) is, it is at least rationally comprehensible, and not half as deserving of vitriol as christianity, which is the lowest form of lunacy ever.

Furthermore, fascists unlike Marxists on the left do not seek to eliminate the unique expressions of racial and cultural diversity in this world, or force alien ideas on certain cultures in the name of eliminating borders, promoting egalitarianism, or other such nonsense..

But the greatest fascists were hegemonistic. If they had succeeded there would've been vast empires composed of many diverse groups. In the long run, to ensure stability, the Empire could not be based on a single ethnicity. There would have to be something which people (or elites) of any race could relate to i.e. something like communism in that sense, albeit not communism itself of course. Some secular Worldview of broad/universal appeal. Even the nazis in their heyday (of empire) had some sense of this--a new order of Europe not germany.

[Rei Murasame]

The fascists had no choice but to seek christian support or at least toleration; that was an earlier time when the holy hogwash still had mass popular support in several countries, in contrast to Europe more recently. But if they or the greatest of them had really had their way, they would've moved against christianity much more rapidly and aggressively than they did. The holy bs just does not mesh well with a real or aggressive fascist agenda. Fascism was the epitome of real world ambition, war and conquest, the antithesis of "blessed are the meek."

You noticed that opposing Christianity does not involve being an atheist, right? I know that you know what their alternative really was.

[starman2003]

You noticed that opposing Christianity does not involve being an atheist, right?

Not necessarily although there were fascist atheists back then. By now it is virtually certain atheism is correct and should be part of any worthwhile Worldview. If some variety of fascism nearly a century ago was theistic, it shouldn't be a model for us.....

[Rei Murasame]

You have to ask yourself what this is all for. It builds up to a peak, like this:

• 1. Economy: Corporatism, Syndicalism, etc.
• 2. Alleles: Ethnic nationalism, gender politics, etc.

You seem to stop there, but there is a third level.

• 3. Spiritual:
  

  The great materialistic progress which we have venerated for so long is on the verge of bankruptcy. We can no longer believe that we are born into this world to accumulate wealth and abandon ourselves to mortal pleasures. We see the dangers and realize that we have been exploited for centuries. We were told the twentieth century was the most progressive that the world has ever known, but unfortunately the progression was in the direction of self-destruction.

  
  

  The world is facing a historic turning point because the system of materialistic liberalism has come to a deadlock.

Other people in this thread have tried to characterise this as 'padding', it is not padding, it's just that accomplishing the goals in #1 and #2 are the preconditions that are necessary for begin being able to address #3.

So when fascism gets into operation, it does everything on its way to eventually arriving at addressing point #3. If that point is left off, then what we would have would been an incomplete project.

[starman2003]

Ethnic nationalism, gender politics, etc.[/list]
You seem to stop there, but there is a [i]third level

I don't care for ethnic nationalism...

Spiritual:The great materialistic progress which we have venerated for so long is on the verge of bankruptcy. We can no longer believe that we are born into this world to accumulate wealth and abandon ourselves to mortal pleasures.

That characterizes an individualistic, democratic system. Of course people should strive for a great goal which goes beyond petty gratification or self-seeking. They should be inspired by a great vision of the world and their role in it. In fact to me that is the #1, the foundation of a new system. But it should be a secular worldview not holy hallejulah bs.

[Rei Murasame]

Why? What is it for?

[starman2003]

Why? What is it for?

It's the truth. Past fascist systems stemmed largely from darwinism, but now we have a better, broader understanding of scientific truth--from big bang to high intelligence--which should replace its mumbo jumbo antithesis with an inspiring vision of progress, in which aimlessness has no place either.

[Rei Murasame]

Progress toward what, though? Those would make what sound like lead-ins to you actually answering the question, but you always seem to trail off at the end.

[starman2003]

Progress toward what, though?

A great civilization of the future, a practically omnipotent system encompassing the globe and going far into space.