[Far-Right Sage]

Well I would not wish for you to be hasty, Fasces. Rei, Figlio, and myself are reasonably read on the subject, as are you, but none among us is the supreme authority on fascism.

In reference to fascist movements that moved in a different direction, many factors have to be considered. First of all, which movements are you considering fascist? The 20th century incarnation of the ideology was short lived in the span of history since the Enlightenment (really when populistic and mass-action politics gained ground in the West after the events in France) and had to contend once in power with extremely destructive forces the world over seeking to extinguish the revolution. When that situation arises, long-term goals are often put on the back burner in favor of expedient arrangement, as was the case in the NSDAP's uneasy toleration of vocal opponents amongst both leading German Protestant personalities and the Catholic priesthood, such as Clemens August Graf von Galen - a man Hitler vowed to have shot immediately after the war. War neccessitates compromise to soothe internal strife and the changes we are discussing would be met in many corners of the world, even in the West, with fanatical opposition now. The 40's was a very different world, both in Europe and in this country.

The other factor is that not every one who supports a specific ideology is on board with the end-goal many fleshed-out ideologies have which I was alluding to in the other discussion. Some support it for their own reasons and understand little else. Some in the German government, for example, were reportedly very uninterested in Himmler and Herman Wirth's Ahnenerbe and had little knowledge of the intention behind Axis expeditions to Tibet and the Andes - even what they were searching for or trying to achieve in occupied Poland.

To answer your original question I believe many support fascism because, yes, they support nationalism - perhaps even some form of palingenetic nationalism - as well as a mixed economy from which they find comfort in corporatism. They also tend to support the maintenance of the linguistic and cultural influence of the dominant ethnic bloc within their country, and perhaps a radically reorganized foreign policy which supports others around the world attempting to achieve the same things in their respective native lands, and is in no way isolationist yet is decidedly opposed to internationalism.

Many others supported our revolution for specific historical reasons too numerous to list or speculate on.

Indeed there are many Marxists who support the disestablishment of religion in the form of state atheism, support the eradication of borders, and support the dominance of the proletariat with a worker's government watching over it all, as in a more idealized vision of Lenin's Russia perhaps, but they do not support the radical obliteration of all group identities and unchecked internationalist egalitarianism. When many clamor for and profess communism, particularly former Soviet and Eastern bloc denizens, they are clamoring for the old Soviet system which stalled in its evolution long before achieving anything close to what a pure Marxism is, and many Reds who sympathize with Stalin's "socialism in one country"/Ceausescu's "National Communism" probably wouldn't support the total mass actualization of their ideology in a literal sense.

I bring this up because it can probably be applied to many fascists.

[starman2003]

But Starman, you are overlooking what the point of fascism is. It is not supposed to be about getting into a position to dictate by any means necessary, because if you get into power by compromising 100% of the point of the movement, it would be as if you never got into power at all.

Reminds me of Roehm, who naively believed the point of the "national socialist" movement was to better the proles and lower classes. That was a joke. The point of fascism is to strengthen the State. In actual practice communism btw, was no more worker friendly than I am. What mattered to Stalin was making the Soviet State stronger. That meant industrialization and militarization, which in turn meant hard work and sacrifice for the proles. Stalin's successors were little different. I don't think most people would have a problem calling my views "fascist" but I despise that term, and not just because of certain historical baggage. Fascism was a failed movement of the past century, based on knowledge which wasn't a tenth as extensive as what we currently have (which supports atheism btw). I'm not saying I reject its basic idea of State power, no way. It's just time to move on.

[Rei Murasame]

Starman, people like you are actually the problem within the fascist movement, because anyone who wants to merely increase the power of the state for the hell of it, while leaving their own people in material squalor, is no fascist at all. It's people like you that we need to learn to identify so that we can kick you out of movements before you get into them.

The others may have some measure of respect for you, but I consider you an enemy.

[Far-Right Sage]

Starman seems like an eager young man, but I don't find myself sharing much with him in the realm of ideology.

More importantly, I have always wondered as to the rationale behind the extreme veneration of Stalinism and indeed the person of Joseph Stalin? It cannot be described as fascistic.

[Rei Murasame]

He's just consistently not a fascist and he has no regard for the plight of anyone at all. He openly despises the workers, he opposes national syndicalism, and he opposes corporatism. He should not be let off for doing that anymore than he would be let off if he were a libertarian.

[mikema63]

So, when fasces purged the thread of FiG's smacking me he also deleted a post I thougt was important and has given me permission to repost.

I took a long walk and tried to see if, through introspection, I could figure out the answer to my question he was figuratively smacking me for asking.

My conclusion was that all human beings in essence are gods, or at the very least in the process of becoming gods. While I find this conclusion of mine very interesting I am not sure how this is supposed to tie into political ideology.

[Far-Right Sage]

He's just consistently not a fascist and he has no regard for the plight of anyone at all. He openly despises the workers, he opposes national syndicalism, and he opposes corporatism. He should not be let off for doing that anymore than he would be let off if he were a libertarian.

Rei takes the hard line!

I suppose I am a bit soft at times in my zeal to uncover a few extra human pieces of "fascist material" in your age bracket in the hope that our ideas are continuing to expand in such a manner with a wishful thought, but this may give way to making unacceptable exceptions.

I would probably say that the member in question is not fascist, but saying so even now weighs a bit heavy on the heart as it's always a disappointment.

In this case, Fasces certainly cannot desert the ship.

My conclusion was that all human beings in essence are gods, or at the very least in the process of becoming gods. While I find this conclusion of mine very interesting I am not sure how this is supposed to tie into political ideology.

Perhaps it doesn't, but it ties soundly into Mormonism.

[Figlio di Moros]

Reminds me of Roehm, who naively believed the point of the "national socialist" movement was to better the proles and lower classes. That was a joke. The point of fascism is to strengthen the State. In actual practice communism btw, was no more worker friendly than I am. What mattered to Stalin was making the Soviet State stronger. That meant industrialization and militarization, which in turn meant hard work and sacrifice for the proles. Stalin's successors were little different. I don't think most people would have a problem calling my views "fascist" but I despise that term, and not just because of certain historical baggage. Fascism was a failed movement of the past century, based on knowledge which wasn't a tenth as extensive as what we currently have (which supports atheism btw). I'm not saying I reject its basic idea of State power, no way. It's just time to move on.

So, your plan is to establish a rampant technocracy, as I recall from your past comments on automation, conquer the world, and.... blatantly oppress everyone for the fuck of it? I mean, what's even your ideology, "Hey, look at this cool shit we could do if we didn't give a fuck about ourselves or anyone else!"

[mikema63]

I hardly mean it in the way they do.

The best way I can explain it is that we have the power to understand the universe, and the more we learn the more we are able to create and destroy. Over time we have gone from being at its mercy to being in control, even immortality and controlling our own evolution is not off the table in the future. Taking into account some versions of string theory that suggest the energy of the universe and its correlate (and matter is just energy) ar equal, when all the "+" and "-" energy is totaled up the universe actually equals nothing. Who is to say we will not gain the power in some far flung future to create someone from nothing?

I can think of no greater interpretation of what a god is than a being with the power to create. Even in the story of the garden of Eden it was the tree of knowledge that made us like god and only the tree of immortality that separated us. Who is to say that our knowledge may one day free us from death? How will we not be gods?

Knowledge is power in the end.

[DeadPresidents]

I hardly mean it in the way they do.

The best way I can explain it is that we have the power to understand the universe, and the more we learn the more we are able to create and destroy. Over time we have gone from being at its mercy to being in control, even immortality and controlling our own evolution is not off the table in the future. Taking into account some versions of string theory that suggest the energy of the universe and its correlate (and matter is just energy) ar equal, when all the "+" and "-" energy is totaled up the universe actually equals nothing. Who is to say we will not gain the power in some far flung future to create someone from nothing?

I can think of no greater interpretation of what a god is than a being with the power to create. Even in the story of the garden of Eden it was the tree of knowledge that made us like god and only the tree of immortality that separated us. Who is to say that our knowledge may one day free us from death? How will we not be gods?

Knowledge is power in the end.

But dying only frees you from the physical reality and you go on to the next reality. That's the point of most religion and spiritual practices.

The Garden of Eden was the story of the immortal truly godlike man. Humans didn't become like god, they became like the demiurge. The imperfect God of the Old Testament. Then humans were bound to the physical reality, forced to suffer and ultimately die to become like the true perfect god.

That's the true story of Garden of Eden. The point is to return to that state of Adam before the fall. When Adam had the power to control the land and the animals and of course immortality.

Eve choose to become like the Demiurge. Adam wanted to be like the perfect God. Adam had the ability to name all the creatures of Eden and they served him, he had the ability for the land to work for him without him actually toiling the land.

Humans are already like gods, just imperfect because they eaten from the Tree of Knowledge our reality changed into an action then consequence reality. The land no longer worked for Adam because he had to work it. There was such of thing called pain because there are negative and positive reactions. There was the creation of good and evil. There was thus the creation of death.

Then also we have other gods such as the Fallen Angels or Sky peoples or whatever people called them that thought Man after Man gained power of the imperfect god, the knowledge of good and evil. Thus we learned war, science, and arts.

Dying is an essential part of consciousness evolution in regards to spirituality of human. Your consciousness is yourself and that's how you experience reality.

The physical reality you currently live in is just a training ground full of conflict in order for you to learn so you can progress to the next reality. The Ultimate Goal is to gain knowledge to end suffering to restore Man to be like the Perfect God.

There's a reason why in the physical reality, there is an action and then consequence. We have immediate feedback. We experience pain and pleasure depending on our actions. We have wanted and unwanted consequences and then we the ability to learn.

We have been using science and technology to better ourselves in the this physical reality. If we just lived longer and gain more wealth then we are not doing our part on the spiritual side.

I would suggest you read about Christian Gnosticism and the Gnostic Jesus and then read a book called the BIG TOE and then read more about Eastern Mysticism, Luciferianism and probably Qabbalah.

And then read about Fascism.

[mikema63]

You are merely information bundled in one place and run through a variety of physical processes, their is no higher reality. You are merely information that manipulates reality through your physical body.

[DeadPresidents]

You are merely information bundled in one place and run through a variety of physical processes, their is no higher reality. You are merely information that manipulates reality through your physical body.

Think of the world this way as inputs and outputs then relate it to the Garden of Eden and the creation story.

In the creation story we have beings that use thought to create things into existence. The creation story is simply explaining the physical reality.

Adam never had to work.

Adam didn't die.

Adam didn't think in terms of good and evil.

Adam had the power to name the animals and control them.

The Tree of Knowledge brought immediate consequences. Adam and Eve was rooted in the material world. In our material world we do not think things into existence like Adam and Eve then.

You are ignoring the major theme of the story and looking at it in a luciferian perspective. Adam never had to work or experienced pain. He was already a godlike being.

Now lets of think about reality in terms of virtual reality or even basic video games.

There is script

There are controls

There is an objective

There is consequence

And there is AI character, well AI Guy

Video games have evolved due to the progress in Computer Programming in order to build complex AI that allows the AI Character to experience it's world in diverse ways as the world is Virtual World is rendered before it.

No longer video games have primitive AIs that can only do basic functions. Now AI can talk, AI can make choices, AI can interact with other AI, AI can acknowledge the world.

That's what happened with the Tree of Knowledge and the teachings from Fallen Materialist Angels. They thought us how to interact with a Material World like we teach AI how to interact with Virtual Worlds.

Humans are ultimately consciousness housed in a body that have functions. Just like when humans build computers, you ultimately have to program it within the means of the hardware.

Your body is just hardware. Just like I take Windows 7 from my computer, download it into another piece of Hardware; a flash drive and then take it to another computer and import it.

But my flashdrive do not have the hardware capabilities of a computer, thus I need hardware powerful enough that can handle Windows 7. I

That's what ultimately separates human consciousness from dog consciousness, our hardware allows us to experience physical reality differently from dogs.


Of course I don't believe this, but what I think Fascism ultimately is trying to do is guide people to some sort of spiritual enlightenment that is away from the Material World and away from Material Ideals.

Ultimately Fascism would have to embrace different realities because if you don't, you would have a decadent man, like we are today.

The Garden of Eden is a metaphor of the downfall of Perfect Man and his descent into the Material World.

[mikema63]

I do not believe in the garden of Eden, I was only using it to try and explain. However, I see no evidence that the garden of Eden was created by anyone but god and not run by anyone but god. God created the animals, not Adam, and I would view living in this garden akin to the analogy of a gilded cage.

[Rei Murasame]

The apple was obviously the best thing that ever happened to them. Also, Lucifer was evidently doing Eve a great favour by telling her to try eating the apple.

[mikema63]

That is how I've always though of it.

[DeadPresidents]

I do not believe in the garden of Eden, I was only using it to try and explain. However, I see no evidence that the garden of Eden was created by anyone but god and not run by anyone but god. God created the animals, not Adam, and I would view living in this garden akin to the analogy of a gilded cage.

And that's the luciferian materialist perspective, which misses most of the details and the story which only focuses on the power of a god that was just created a world that was drastically different from the Material World and once Adam and Evil became like the Demiurge they were kicked out of the Eden and into a Materialist World of Suffering.

And ever since then Humans have been trying to figure out ways to limit their suffering but ultimately it that's what the Materialist World is made for according to most religions and spiritual traditions.

Fascism is against Liberalism and Atheism because it is Materialist and focuses only the Material World of Suffering.

Which is why Fascism looks deeply into occultismm, Eastern Mysticism, Western Mysticism Shamanism and esotericism and tries to understand the Material World from a deeper point of full instead of ontological materialism which is extremely shallow.

Liberalism and Ontological Materialism is ultimately Luciferianism which leads to decadence of society.

And the Garden of Eden is just a metaphor to explain the Material World and the limitations that are placed on us and how they differ in non-materialist world. Garden of Eden is mysticism.

[DeadPresidents]

The apple was obviously the best thing that ever happened to them. Also, Lucifer was evidently doing Eve a great favour by telling her to try eating the apple.

Which is ultimately luciferianism and materialism, which is why they suffered after they left.

[Figlio di Moros]

Rei, if the Garden of Eden was the Golden Age, and the antediluvian the Silver, how could having the fruit be eaten be considered good? Learning "good and evil" certainly sounds right, but morality itself is a degeneration of transcendence. It was given them by a snake. Come on, you know this...

[Rei Murasame]

Suffering is better than never becoming self-aware. You are both attributing to esoteric fascism the opposite of the position that it actually takes. In esoteric fascism, Lucifer was indeed doing humanity a favour in that story.

We're in the wrong thread for this, but over in the other thread I think that symbolism was already covered.

[DeadPresidents]

Rei, if the Garden of Eden was the Golden Age, and the antediluvian the Silver, how could having the fruit be eaten be considered good? Learning "good and evil" certainly sounds right, but morality itself is a degeneration of transcendence. It was given them by a snake. Come on, you know this...

This is what I am saying.


They miss the crucial parts of the story, they look at it from a backwards Luciferian and Materialist perspective, actually a Liberal perspective and from what I understand it isn't a Fascist perspective.

Humans were more godlike then than now.

The Absolute does not have morality.