[ArtAllm]

That statement is worth to become a new discussion.

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=123914&start=280

WatOn:

Forcing people to switch religion or leave is collective punishment. Ethnic cleansing to be more specific.

Then all Christians and all Muslims are victims of collective punishment and ethnic cleansing, because their ancestors were pagans that were forced to convert to these Abrahamitic religions.

I want a compensation for that injustice that was done to my ancestors, who were pagans that were forced to accept Christianity.

I think that Jews have to pay for it, because they invented Christianity that spread to Germany.



Where can I get the compensation for that collective punishment of my ancestors?

[wat0n]

Yes, Jews forcibly converted them to Christianity and Islam. Makes perfect sense.

[Social_Critic]

One sure reads the weirdest things here. Don't forget aliens from other planets may be reading this, and they'll get really confused.

[ArtAllm]

Yes, Jews forcibly converted them to Christianity and Islam. Makes perfect sense.

Paul was a Jew, he was guilty of the spread of Christianity to Europe.

The earliest followers of Jesus composed an apocalyptic, Second Temple Jewish sect, which historians refer to as Jewish Christianity. The first part of the period, during the lifetimes of the Twelve Apostles, is called the Apostolic Age. In line with the Great Commission given to the disciples and attributed to the resurrected Jesus, the missionary activity spread Christianity to cities throughout the Hellenistic world and even beyond the Roman Empire. Though Paul's influence on Christian thinking is said to be more significant than any other New Testament author,[2] the relationship of Paul of Tarsus and Judaism is still disputed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Christianity

You accused Christians for forcing Jews to become Christians.

And I accuse Jews for spreading Christianity and forcing it upon pagans in Europe.

As you see, your claim is just stupid.

Jews, Pagans and Christians are not ethnic groups, they are religions, and first Christians were a new Jewish Sect.

So the real victims of these oriental religions were European pagans, and the perpetrators - the oriental Monotheists, speak Jews.

That makes more sense than your silly claim that conversion from Judaism to Christianity (two different oriental monotheistic sects) was racism, and that Europeans are responsible for that.

No, Europeans were victims of these intolerant and foreign religions, and people who spread these religion are responsible for all crimes, that were committed by Christians and Jews against each other.

We, European pagans, whose ancestors were forcefully converted to an oriental religion, are innocent victims, we need compensations!

[wat0n]

First, I said that Spain (more precisely, the Monarchs) forcibly converted Jews (and Muslims) to Christianity in 1492, ethnically cleaning those who refused and eventually persecuting those who didn't. Not Christians, but Spain.

Second, it's disputed wether Paul could have been considered a Jew.

Third, Paul didn't forcibly convert anyone AFAIK.

Fourth, blaming Paul, Judaism and Jews for whatever Christians may have done in the following centuries is like blaming Einstein for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki for developing the Relativity Theory.

[ArtAllm]

First, I said that Spain (more precisely, the Monarchs) forcibly converted Jews (and Muslims) to Christianity in 1492, ethnically cleaning those who refused and eventually persecuting those who didn't. Not Christians, but Spain.

How can you blame Spain and her Monarchs, if they themselves were victims of these intolerant monotheistic religions, which originated in the oriental desert?

BTW, nobody "forced" Jews or Muslims to convert to Christianity, and nobody expelled them.

They could chose one of two options.

1. To become Christians and remain in Spain.

2. To abandon Spain


Jews and Muslims, who converted to Christianity, became Spaniards (they are today Spain).

Native Semites, who were expelled from Palestine by Zionists, did not have any option - they were not asked if they want to convert to Judaism.

Jews, who only pretended that they were Christians, were persecuted in the medieval Spain, because they were liars.

Pagans (polytheists) were treated the same way. If they cheated, they were also persecuted by the inquisition.

So all polytheist ancestors of today Christians were persecuted, they had to convert to Christianity, or else they were "ethnically cleansed".

Jews only got the taste of their own "medicine" in the medieval Spain, but the Zionist controlled western Media only whines about the "poor Jews" that were persecuted by these "brutal Spaniards", and never mentions the innocent European polytheists who were the real victims of the intolerant and foreign Hebrew desert cults.

Even the ancestors Spanish Monarchs were forced to Christianity, they were also victims!

So who is to blame?

People that invented these intolerant monotheistic cults (speak Abrahamits)!

We, Europeans, are victims of this foreign and intolerant oriental desert cult, called Monotheism (be it Judaism or Christianity- two different Hebrew sects), or the new Semitic version of an abrahamitic religion, called Islam.

Second, it's disputed wether Paul could have been considered a Jew.

OK, let's agree that he was a Hebrew.

There were no Jews then, Judaism is a later creation of Talmudists.

Let's agree that there were two Hebrew sects, Pharisees and Christians.

Paul was a Hebrew who joined the Hebrew Sect of Christians and thanks to his effort this intolerant monotheistic Hebrew cult spread to Euorope.

Third, Paul didn't forcibly convert anyone AFAIK.

That is a silly statement.

Neither Hitler not Stalin killed any person. Does that mean that these dictators were innocent?

BTW, Hitler was an Austrian, not a German, and Stalin was a Georgian.

Why do they blame Germans and Russians for the crimes of these dictators?

Thanks to Paul this intolerant Hebrew religion was adopted by Europeans.

As we see, all crimes, committed by Christians and Jews against each other, are a result of this intolerant Hebrew ideology or religion.

If somebody believes that only one religion and one God is good, then he cannot tolerate any other sect or religion or consider other religions to be equal to his own religion.

And that is the essence of ANY monotheism.

We, Europeans, were tolerant Polytheists, and the Hebrew infected us with their intolerant religions, that caused havoc.

Fourth, blaming Paul, Judaism and Jews for whatever Christians may have done in the following centuries ...

Well, that is the logical consequence of what you were saying.

Oriental ideologies are incompatible with our European pluralism, oriental people and their ideologies infected our European culture.

Renaissance and Enlightment - that is our true Hellenistic-European heritage.

Monotheism and Communism (speak secular Monotheism) are the result of foreign oriental influence on our European civilization.

And who were these oriental people that spread their oriental religions and ideologies to Europe?

They were Hebrews, and later Jews!

...is like blaming Einstein for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki for developing the Relativity Theory.

It seems that you have no idea about physics and are ignorant in how the atomic bomb works.

Einstein and his "Relativity Theory" have nothing to do with the invention of the Atomic bomb.

But the use of this bomb against civilians has something to do with Monotheism, which is an oriental Theology, spread by Hebrews.

Natural Science was not a Jewish thing, and Einstein was not a Jew in the religious sense.

He did not believe in a "Jewish god".

He believed in European values, and he even believed in the existence of a "Jewish race".

Einstein believed that he belonged to the "Jewish race", but he was an enlightened European.

What to his "Relativity Theory" - this was and is a useless theory, and Einstein himself was not sure if this theory was true.

He admitted it in his memoirs.

Zionists exaggerated the importance of his work, called "Relativity theory".

Einstein was a mediocre scientist, and his real achievement was not the useless "science-fiction-theories", like "Relativity", but his discovery of the Photoelectric effect.

Stupid journalists (paid by Zionists) spread the rumour about the atomic bomb that was allegedly invented thanks to his Relativity-Theory, and many fools still repeat this nonsense.

[wat0n]

I can't quote, so I'll address your points separately.

First, the fact that Jews and Muslims had to leave if they didn't convert means they were expelled. They wouldn't have left if the Spanish Monarchs hadn't decided that their country had to be ridden of Muslims and Jews.

Second, you haven't explained why are Jews to be held responsible for what the followers of some religion derived from Judaism do. If you didn't like the Einstein analogy, then I can present another analogy - for example, blaming Jews for whatever the followers of some other religion derived from Judaism do is likely blaming the Wright Brothers for WW2 bombings because they invented the fire controls that allowed humans to steer planes and thus make it possible for people to pilot them.

Third, the crimes by Hitler and Stalin were carried out by the States of Germany and the USSR, and Russia is the successor State of the latter.

Fourth, to consider Einstein to have been a mediocre scientist is a statement that would be rejected by most physicists.

And at last, my statement is true given that the very definition of ethnic cleansing includes both ethnic and religious groups:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ethnic_cleansing.

[Oxymoron]

I blame the Zorostorians myself.

[ArtAllm]

First, the fact that Jews and Muslims had to leave if they didn't convert means they were expelled.

No, they chose to live.

Second, you haven't explained why are Jews to be held responsible for what the followers of some religion derived from Judaism do.

Because they spread this religion to Europe. It was not derived from Judaism, it was a Hebrew sect.

If you didn't like the Einstein analogy...

The Einstein analogy was wrong, and it proved that you talk about issues you have no idea about.

...
blaming the Wright Brothers for WW2 bombings...

Jews did not invent anything. But they lobbied for using the bombs against civilians, and that has something to do with the Old Testament.

[wat0n]

No, they chose to live.

If they didn't want to convert and didn't leave (or converted but continued to practice their religions secretly), they were to be burnt alive. And actually, even those who converted to Christianity and did not secretly practice Islam or Judaism were eventually expelled if their ancestors were Muslims, or were discriminated if their ancestors were Jews. Seems like they didn't have any real choice, did they?

Because they spread this religion to Europe. It was not derived from Judaism, it was a Hebrew sect.

Did they spread it by force or they proselytized and some people willingly converted? Why should they be condemned if these people willingly converted?

And actually, the Romans were the ones who did most of the spreading of Christianity from 313 AD onwards (particularly from 380 AD onwards).

The Einstein analogy was wrong, and it proved that you talk about issues you have no idea about.

Einstein's theory of relativity is widely credited to have helped to start the atomic age.

Jews did not invent anything. But they lobbied for using the bombs against civilians, and that has something to do with the Old Testament.

Yeah, Jooz did The Blitz

But you didn't address my analogy, at all. Are the Wright brothers responsible for whatever people do with planes? Are Jews responsible for whatever the followers of any religion derived from Judaism or invented by Hebrews do?

[CounterChaos]

All ancestors of religion were collectively punished! ~Sandori~

Hmmm...I think we should start a pyramid scheme immediately and pay each other off...

[Nets]

ArtAlm, you should write a book about your struggle against the wily Jews. Never forget how they betrayed you in WWI! Maybe one day you'll be Chancellor even!

Wouldn't be the first time.

On a more serious note, looks like someone is bitter about paying pensions to concentration camp survivors.

[Aekos]

I'd be interested to learn what part of Germany ArtAllm is from. I've heard that antisemitism is most prevalent in the east.

[ArtAllm]

Seems like they didn't have any real choice, did they?

Everybody had a choice in Spain: he could become a good Christian or else...

But people, who were victims of Hebrews, had no choice or chance... unless they were small girls:

Numbers 31

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

That are the Hebrew Scriptures!

That is real ethnic cleansing!

How can sane people still worship these sadistic books?

What to Medieval Spain, well, most Pagans, followers of different non-Christian cults, Muslims and Jews decided to become good Christians, and they are what we today call Spaniards.

Even genetic studies show that many Spaniards have oriental haplogroups.

Well, some of Jews cheated, that was the reason why they were persecuted.

But that is nothing special, the former Pagans and followers of any non-Christian cult were treated the same way.

But we hear only Jews whining about their persecution in Spain, and that is racism.

Many Jews believe that they deserve special treatment, which is the reason why they never talk about the persecution of non-Jews in Spain, which was due to the intolerant Abrahamitic religion, infiltrated into Spain by a Hebrew sect, called Christians.

...the Romans were the ones who did most of the spreading of Christianity from 313 AD onwards

Again, you are comparing apples and lemons. Romans or Spaniards are terms that describe people who lived in these states, not their religious affiliations.

Jews and Christians are terms that describe the followers of two Hebrew sects.

So somebody may be a Roman and a Jew or a Roman and a Christian.

Can't you see that your statement does not make any sense?

It seems that your racist mindset blinds you so much that you really believe that Jews were a race...

Romans, that spread this Hebrew religions, were followers of Hebrew sects.

BTW, was Nero's wife not Jewish?

Einstein's theory of relativity is widely credited to have helped to start the atomic age.

Yes, "credited" by uneducated journalists.

He lobbied for the creation of this barbaric weapon, and for using it against civilians.

But this has nothing to do with his sci-fi "theories".

The atomic bomb was build thanks to the stolen German know-how and the money of American taxpayers.

But you didn't address my analogy, at all. Are the Wright brothers responsible for whatever people do with planes?

Your analogy is a straw-man, because the Wright Brothers never lobbied for misusing of their invention against civilians.

The Old Testament is a book, written by Hebrews, and Hebrew sects (Christians and Jews) were eager to spread this book across Europe.

How can you misuse this book?

You misuse this book if you reject it!

And what can we find in this book?

Well, an excuse to commit genocides.

You can just imagine that you are "chosen" (a new Jew), and that your adversaries are "Canaanaties", and that your god wants them to be killed.

That was exactly what some Christians did.

Promised Land imagery figured prominently in shaping English colonial thought. The pilgrims identified themselves with the ancient Hebrews. They viewed the New World as the New Canaan.

They were God's chosen people headed for the Promised Land.

Other colonists believed they, too, had been divinely called. The settlers in Virginia were, John Rolf said, "a peculiar people, marked and chosen by the finger of God."

This self-image of being God's Chosen People called to establish the New Israel became an integral theme in America's self-interpretation.

...

The sense of divine election and the identification of the Americas with ancient Canaan were used to justify expelling America's Indigenous Peoples from their land.

The colonists saw themselves as confronting "satanic forces" in the Native Americans. They were Canaanites to be destroyed or thrown out.

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/joshua/manifest.html

Were these Christians misusing the Hebrew Scriptures?

Yes or No?

As we see, the Hebrew scriptures instigated genocides in the past and even today.

Zionists also believe that they are "chosen", and that the native Semites that live in Palestine can be ethnically cleansed.

Are Zionists misusing the Hebrew Scriptures?

Yes or No?

[ArtAllm]

I'd be interested to learn what part of Germany ArtAllm is from.

I'd be interested to learn what is the name of God Aekos is worshiping.

I've heard that antisemitism is most prevalent in the east.

I've heard that people who worship their personal God are usually loyal to a country that was presumably promised to them by their personal God, no matter were they come from and what citizens they are.

What to me - no, I do not hate Semites, be they Muslims, Christians or Jews.

I even admire native Semites in Palestine who fight against the occupation of their land by Zionists - white Europeans of Slavic-Khazarian origin who claim that they are "chosen Semites".

[ArtAllm]

All ancestors of religion were collectively punished! ~Sandori~

Fully agree with you, Sandori.

Hmmm...I think we should start a pyramid scheme immediately and pay each other off..

I am glad that there are sane people who can see how ridiculous the "collective responsibility" or "collective victimhood / victimology" is.

If some people believe that they belong to some groups of people who lived many centuries ago, then they are crazy.

But that is precisely what Zionist do.

They claim that they and the ancient Hebrews are the same people, and that Palestine is their "promised land".

They believe that "they" were persecuted in Spain, and that Spaniards have some moral obligation towards them.

Why?

Because their Slavic-Khazar ancestors converted to Judaism in the 10th century AD!

But in reality Spanish Christians can also claim that their ancestors were Jews, Pagans or other non-Christians that were persecuted by the members of a Hebrew Sect, called Christians.

They are also victims!

And who are in this case the responsible?

I think that the Hebrew ideology/religion is responsible, not the state and not the people who call themselves Spaniards.

What is your opinion?

[Oxymoron]

Actung Actung, Das Anti Juden Permabanna Por favor

[CounterChaos]

I am glad that there are sane people who can see how ridiculous the "collective responsibility" or "collective victimhood / victimology" is.

Woah Partner...You are taking me out of context..I am an atheist and I loathe all religion, but that does not mean that I loathe justice... ...One more thing, I'm not sane at all...

[Aekos]

I'd be interested to learn what is the name of God Aekos is worshiping.

While Germany is a very much an urban country, with a recent history of cosmopolitanism, I think we may have run into the dregs of that particular society in ArtAllm -- reading his posts might shed some insight into the disaffected, uneducated rural population.

[CounterChaos]

reading his posts might shed some insight into the disaffected, uneducated rural population.

Just frustration more than anything else...I see plenty of it everywhere. In America there is a huge number of individuals that wake up to a cup of paranoia for breakfast every morning. Of course these unfortunate ones also are bombarded with manipulators such as Rush and company on a daily basis. They turn into armchair commando's, hell bent on blaming everyone and everything except their manipulators for the problems in their life. Education is a powerful cure though; the teacher only needs to learn to talk their language....