[The Clockwork Rat]

No, but it somewhat defeats the purpose of farming them, other than to make catching them easier.

[QatzelOk]

tofu and beans: always

cheese and milk: frequently

fish: regularly

eggs: occasionally

chicken, turkey: never

steak, ribs: never, ever, ever

ham, bacon: are you kidding me?

[Godstud]

Fish, QuatzelOk? Don't you care about the environment? Fish are perhaps the most abused food source in the world, and hardly sustainable at the rate man is using them up. I'm surprised you're so selfish and thoughtless as to claim superiority regarding diet, and then be so willing to destroy the environment in the next breath. Tell me it ain't so!

You do realize that cheese and milk come from the same animals that you want us to stop eating. You're very contradictory.

QuatzelOk = Ultimate Hypocrite

[The Clockwork Rat]

What do you expect? He's post-modern.

[ThereBeDragons]

You do realize that cheese and milk come from the same animals that you want us to stop eating. You're very contradictory.

There's quite a large difference between institutional slavery and institutional cannibalism.

[Godstud]

Humans are eating people?

[SpecialOlympian]

Is it ethical to surgically remove the delicious parts of the cow without killing them, providing they're given hospitable living conditions afterward?

[franfran]

And how would you propose to do that?

[Godstud]

Will the cow miss it's filet mignon?

There's quite a large difference between institutional slavery and institutional cannibalism.

They're animals. They have no concept of slavery, and cannibalism not unknown in nature. Disney's always done a great job of anthropomorphizing animals to the point that people now feel guilty about eating food that they have been eating for thousands of years.

[ThereBeDragons]

The point is that keeping animals for milk and keeping them for slaughter are different.

Vegetarianism predates Walt Disney by several thousand years.

[QatzelOk]

And fish are generally caught in the wild.

However, it's true that farmed fish are an environmental disaster. Likewise, overfishing has killed off the Grand Banks and many other sources of free, sustainable, and environmentally-friendly proteins.

But fish doesn't cause global warming and use up other people's grain the way meat-eating does.

[Pants-of-dog]

And fish are generally caught in the wild.

However, it's true that farmed fish are an environmental disaster. Likewise, overfishing has killed off the Grand Banks and many other sources of free, sustainable, and environmentally-friendly proteins.

But fish doesn't cause global warming and use up other people's grain the way meat-eating does.

Bottom trawling, to catch fish in the wild, is devastating for the marine environment. Fishing is usually done with boats that burn fossil fuels. Moreover, fish has to be transported in freezer trucks, which use more energy than regular trucks. Also fish is not locally available everywhere, meaning that it must be transported (using fossil fuels) over larger distances. Locally produced, organic, ruminant meat is far more eco-friendly.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The point is that keeping animals for milk and keeping them for slaughter are different.

Vegetarianism predates Walt Disney by several thousand years.

Vegetarianism is great for all those people who can digest the baby food of other mammals. But for people who are lactose intolerant, including whole populations in Asia, cutting meat out of one's diet would mean veganism.

While I understand that vegetarianism and veganism are good for the environment, I do not think that it is reasonable to ask all these people to become vegans. There are many health problems associated with veganism.

[The Clockwork Rat]

I do not think that it is reasonable to ask all these people to become vegans.

It is.

There are many health problems associated with veganism.

There aren't.

[Pants-of-dog]

It is.

...
There aren't.

How is it reasonable to force people to be malnourished?

Vitamin B12 deficiency is the most well known health problem. There is also the issue of humans findng it difficult to absorb non-heme iron (getting only 1% to 7% of the iron in plants), resulting in anemia. Absorption of non-heme iron is made more difficult when you eat soybeans, while absorbtion of heme iron (from meat) is increased when you ingest animal proteins. Our bodies have evolved to absorb iron and proteins from meat.

[Godstud]

However, it's true that farmed fish are an environmental disaster.

Where did you get that crap from?
Try reading about the facts instead of going by the propaganda spewed by IFAW, PETA, and other self-serving outifts, that are only interested in their personal profits.
http://www.bcsalmonfacts.ca/

Be sure to read the MYTHS, because most people go by these, instead of FACTS.

Bottom trawling, to catch fish in the wild, is devastating for the marine environment. Fishing is usually done with boats that burn fossil fuels. Moreover, fish has to be transported in freezer trucks, which use more energy than regular trucks. Also fish is not locally available everywhere, meaning that it must be transported (using fossil fuels) over larger distances. Locally produced, organic, ruminant meat is far more eco-friendly.

QFT

[The Clockwork Rat]

Pants, read up because I've addressed that already, a few times, in this very thread.

[Pants-of-dog]

Pants, read up because I've addressed that already, a few times, in this very thread.

I found absolutely no mention of the word "heme" in this thread other than my own comments. Sephardi and Godstud mention iron at different points. I was unable to find any indication of you addressing this issue in this thread.

[The Clockwork Rat]

I'm sorry, I saw you write B12 and iron, and couldn't be fucked reading the rest.

In response to your claim: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm

[Pants-of-dog]

I'm sorry, I saw you write B12 and iron, and couldn't be fucked reading the rest.

In response to your claim: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm

That website is awful. It claims that 1 cup of cooked soybeans has 8.8 mg of iron. It totally neglects the fact that soy protein actually inhibits iron consumption.

Here's a better one that looks at things more intelligently.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/71/5/1147.full

[The Clockwork Rat]

So... if a vegan diet does not typically have enough iron in, add more iron. Doesn't seem too hard does it?