[QatzelOk]

We know what the problems are but unless you have solutions, then you're just preaching to the converted.

Vegetarianism is one of the solutions to the environmental vandalism of Modern humans.

That a lot of Modern people - like yourself - can't seem to accept and embrace the solutions that are required provides another problem to be resolved: how to make ideologically-closed people less dangerous to future generations.

I believe the answer to this problem - if there is one - may be found in text. New texts from different sources are required to cancel the deadly effects of all the other texts that created your current "opinions" and the resulting inability to adapt.

[Godstud]

I've had bugs. They're good and they're good for the environment. Vegetarianism is not the solution. You need to make more land to grow your soy beans and other plants to make up for the lack of proteins that plants have. It's ignoring science and you're also ignoring a whole other set of problems. You also seek to take people out of the equation. Pretty typical, actually.

solutions that are required provides another problem to be resolved: how to make ideologically-closed people less dangerous to future generations.

Solutions, have to be both practical, applicable, attractive to the populace, and realistic. These are things you can't seem to grasp during your consistent anti-car and anti-society rants.

I believe the answer to this problem - if there is one - may be found in text. New texts from different sources are required to cancel the deadly effects of all the other texts that created your current "opinions" and the resulting inability to adapt.

Text? What a bullshit premise! Peddle your retarded quasi-religion elsewhere! You, as a human are just an unable to evolve because you consistently fail to understand that the world does not revolve around your absurd theories, that seek to separate thought from reason.

For someone, who in one moment is objecting to helmets and referring to being told to wear them as being fascist, and the next seeking to tell people how to live, I find you quite amusing. Go play with your "text theories" elsewhere!

[QatzelOk]

Solutions, have to be both practical, applicable, attractive to the populace, and realistic. These are things you can't seem to grasp during your consistent anti-car and anti-society rants.

attractive to the populace

They have to be attractive to the Elite. The populace will do what they have to to avoid pain.

Likewise, if we continue to eat a lot of meat, a lot of populace will continue to starve. Which isn't very attractive.

realistic

Destroying the atmosphere isn't very realistic. I think you're confusing society with reality.

[The Clockwork Rat]

You need to make more land to grow your soy beans and other plants to make up for the lack of proteins that plants have. It's ignoring science and you're also ignoring a whole other set of problems.

You must have missed the bit of "science" where plant proteins take up less area to produce than animal proteins.

[Godstud]

As I already said, insects are even more efficient than plant proteins but the stigma(ewww bugs!, factor) attached to them, much like to Sushi about 40 years ago in N. America, remains.

What populace is going to starve, Quatz? We have enough food right now, it's the distribution that is the problem.

[The Clockwork Rat]

Insects can't photosynthesis or fix nitrogen. How can they be more efficient at producing protein than plants?

[Godstud]

Well, plants don't create proteins that are as complete as insect and animal proteins. There are nutrients that are missing in plant proteins. Eg. animal/insect meat is a rich source of nutrients that protect the heart and nervous system including vitamins B12 and B6, zinc, phosphorus, L-carnitine and Coenzyme Q10.

Insects also require no farmland, so you can use the land for different crops.

The advantages of this diet include insects' high levels of protein, vitamin and mineral content. Van Huis's latest research, conducted with colleague Dennis Oonincx, shows that farming insects produces far less greenhouse gas than livestock. Breeding commonly eaten insects such as locusts, crickets and meal worms, emits 10 times less methane than livestock. The insects also produce 300 times less nitrous oxide, also a warming gas, and much less ammonia, a pollutant produced by pig and poultry farming.
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/011453.html

I'd eat bugs to help out.

[The Clockwork Rat]

So it would more be a case of encouraging insect populations, on top of growing crops. You then need to be able to catch them, or control their dispersal, otherwise you're going to have massive insect populations with unknown consequences; see: Great Leap Forward.

B12 & B6 are available in pulses/legumes (been over this before), zinc is available in seeds and pulses, phosphorus in pulses, carnitine in pulses, and coenzyme Q10 in nuts and soya.

Why do you persist?

[Godstud]

* Vitamin B12 Deficiency: Vitamin B12 is not regularly found in plant food. Vitamin B12 deficiency has many major health problems, like anemia, neuro-degenerative disorders. In lactating mothers, deficiency of Vitamin B12 causes neurological disorders in children.
* Calcium Deficiency: Studies have shown that vegans are more at risk of fractured bones than their meat eating, non-vegetarian counterparts. A vegan diet is very low in calcium, which gives rise to this problem.
* Vitamin D Deficiency: Vegan diet is also low in Vitamin D. It maintains bone density, helps in healthy bone growth and also in maintaining normal functioning of the nervous system. Lack of Vitamin D hampers calcium and phosphorus absorption in the body. Hence, there are rising cases of osteoporosis amongst followers of vegan diets. At the same time lack of Vitamin D can also increase the risk of breast and prostate cancer. Children on vegan diets are more prone to rickets.
* Deficiency of Iodine: In many countries around the world, animal products are used to manufacture iodine. Therefore, vegans shun iodine. However, iodine deficiency causes goiter and hypothyroidism. Soy products are emphasized in vegan diets, but a lot of soy products also leads to deficiency of iodine. If a pregnant woman follows veganism, her child is at high risk of impaired motor function, a lower IQ level and stunted growth, caused due to iodine deficiency. It is important that women who are lactating, pregnant or considering pregnancy, take care adding iodine in their diet. For the unborn baby, iodine is available as folate.
* Omega 3 Fatty Acids: A commonly seen deficiency in vegans is omega 3 essential fatty acids. This acid is important for brain functions, behavioral functions as well as normal growth and development. Omega 3 fatty acid is essential to prevent diseases like heart disease, arthritis and cancer. Deficiency of this acid during pregnancy can cause vision and nerve problems in the child.
* Low Birth Weight: Research has shown that mothers on vegan diet deliver low birth weight babies.
* Malnutrition: Several cases of infant malnutrition and death due to malnutrition have been reported due to a vegan diet.
* Iron Deficiency: Anemia and iron deficiency rates are higher in people who follow veganism. This is because iron from plants is not absorbed in the body as well as the iron from meat. Iron absorption is inhibited due to the fiber, phytates, and oxalates present in a vegan diet.
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/vegan-diet-problems.html

B12 & B6 are available in pulses/legumes (been over this before)

Over it before and wrong before?

While lacto-ovo vegetarians usually get enough B12 through consuming dairy products, vegans will lack B12 unless they consume B12-containing dietary supplements or B12-fortified foods. Examples of fortified foods include fortified breakfast cereals, fortified soy products, fortified energy bars, and fortified nutritional yeast. According to the UK Vegan Society, the present consensus is that any B12 present in plant foods is likely to be unavailable to humans because B12 analogues can compete with B12 and inhibit metabolism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12#Foods

Why do YOU persist?

[The Clockwork Rat]

Urgh, that's what happens when people assume that the vegan diet is the "normal" diet with all of the animal products removed. I actually adapt my diet to make sure that I do get plenty of protein, calcium, B vits, iodine, etc. I take supplements on top, just to make sure. Another problem is that the general range of food products that are available are catered to the majority, i.e. those who do eat meat and dairy products, which makes a vegan diet less accessible. A larger vegan population would stock its shelves accordingly.

[QatzelOk]

We have enough food right now, it's the distribution that is the problem.

It's funny how we can put coke machines on every street corner on earth, dogs into space, armies in thousands of locations killing bad guys, but can't seem to get food to every corner in sufficient quantity to sustain lives.

Could it be our system that is at fault, and not the transportation technology that is already available?

Vegetarianism frees up lots of water, land, and protein. Most of the world can't afford to waste these things, Godstud.

[MB.]

QatzelOk, I'm surprised on two accounts.

For one, I took you to be a carnivore. Two, you know fully well that the hedonistic society doesn't care about anything besides maximizing its hedonism.


Godstud:

You need to make more land to grow your soy beans and other plants to make up for the lack of proteins that plants have. It's ignoring science

Really? Can I see some peer-reviewed articles on that 'science' you speak of?

[QatzelOk]

you know fully well that the hedonistic society doesn't care about anything besides maximizing its hedonism.

Extinction and pollution put a serious damper on the fun.

And meat isn't fun at all once you stop eating it.

I used to laugh when I ate steak. But I have learned to laugh at black beans as well.

[franfran]

I was vegetarian (I still ate cheese and occasionally eggs though) for about 12 years or so. The only thing I ever really missed eating was bacon. After a holiday in Scotland, where I stayed in a flat that was about 50 metres from the harbour, where the fishing boats came in, and surrounded by fish and chip shops and fish curing sheds, I couldn't resist, and started eating fish again - now I have fish once or twice a week for dinner and two or three times a week for lunch. About six months ago I had an uncontrollable urge to have bacon which I then did every day for about a week. Bacon is now back on the menu for me as is prosciutto and, to a lesser extent, ham.

I can't bring myself to eat red meat or poultry though. I tried some chicken but spat it out as I found it tasteless, dry and stringy - and no, it was cooked properly - everyone else liked theirs. And I can't take anything with even just a little bit of red meat in it - to me it makes the food taste as if it's gone off.

[The Clockwork Rat]

Fish is a dodgy one; some stocks are okay, some methods are okay, but most stocks are dwindling unsustainably, and many fishing methods are damaging, such as deep ocean trawling that knackers the sea bed.

I've ended up fairly similar to the state you're in; I keep a predominantly meat-free diet, but for some "special occasions" or plain greed, I'll eat a bit of meat or cheese.

By the way, if that's how your chicken tastes, it's not being cooked properly/it's a shit cut of chicken. I think some people are unwilling to admit when some meat is poor, either because they're brainwashed into thinking "meat is good" or because they don't want to offend.

[franfran]

My favourite fish is Barramundi, which is a large freshwater fish found in Southeast Asia, Papua New Guinea and Northern Australia. Most of the cheaper Barramundi here is imported from Vietnam, but as I'm a bit concerned about the water quality there and I like my fish fresh, I only buy Australian Barramundi (not necessarily caught in the wild - it's so popular that a lot of it is farmed). Australian Barramundi is usually about $5 to $7 a kilo more than the Vietnamese imports, but it's worth the extra. I also like Blue-eye Cod (it's the basis of what is probably the most popular dish in the restaurant in Sydney's Royal Botanic Gardens) and Atlantic Salmon (farming the Atlantic Salmon is quite a big industry in Tasmania). I usually end up shopping down at the Sydney Fish Markets at least once a week - they're about a 35 minute walk - or a 12 minute tram ride - from where I work.

And, as for the chicken, it was cooked well. It's just that I have completely lost my taste for it.

[The Clockwork Rat]

Salmon and cod are some of the most poorly caught/farmed fish up here Pollock is a good replacement for cod because stocks are higher, and they live in the mid-level, so trawlers don't scrape the sea-bed. Salmon doesn't really have a good alternative, so is better just to avoid (if you're as "concerned" as I am). No idea about Barramundi; I haven't even heard of it.

It's a bit of a shame that you don't like chicken, since as far as meat goes, it's one of the best. It has a relatively low (land+fuel)/protein ratio compared to mammals, and is also low in gunky fats so long as you remove the skin and its sub-dermal fat tissue (which is easy).

[franfran]

Pollock? That's a new one to me - we don't get that here - or at least not under that name. I just Googled it and we don't get it under any of it's other names either, so it must be a Northern hemisphere thing. The salmon you get in Australia is mostly locally produced (some of the frozen stuff comes from Norway) and it is Atlantic Salmon from Tasmania - it has to be farmed, as we're nowhere near the Atlantic, so depletion of ocean life wouldn't be an issue, although sometimes I wonder about this when I stock up on tinned tuna for my lunchtime sandwiches............

Ever tried Eggs Benedict with smoked salmon over the eggs instead of the more usual bacon? mmmmmmmmmmmmmm..................

[The Clockwork Rat]

Odd, Alaskan pollock would surely be as close to you as it would to me? Instead of being transported East, it would go South.

Farmed fish are usually not as sustainable as is commonly thought, since they're often fed on bits of wild fish, and are given all manner of anti-biotics and other chemicals, which of course leak out of them and into the sea.

[franfran]

The only Alaskan fish I've ever seen on sale here is tinned salmon......

since they're often fed on bits of wild fish

Oh dear. There isn't a mad fish disease, is there?