[PredatorOC]

I have an idea. How about everyone stops thinking they have a moral right to dictate to other people how they should live?

The US could have been a great country, if only things had been handled at the state level, instead of the federal level. The left could have had their social programs, the right could have had their theocracy and the libertarians could have had their quasi-freedom. And with things handled on a more local level, you would have had far less corruption. But no. And now nothing gets done (except regulatory capture and rent seeking).

[Dr House]

I have an idea. How about everyone stops thinking they have a moral right to dictate to other people how they should live?

I don't think that. I just don't think people have a moral right not to have their lives dictated either (or that most would even care).

The US could have been a great country, if only things had been handled at the state level, instead of the federal level. The left could have had their social programs, the right could have had their theocracy and the libertarians could have had their quasi-freedom. And with things handled on a more local level, you would have had far less corruption. But no. And now nothing gets done (except regulatory capture and rent seeking).

First, state-level politicians are elected from a narrower pool of elites, and are dumber. Second, state-level economic policymaking would be an absolute clusterfuck and hinder economies of scale for national enterprises. There are in the US, for example, a thousand different locally mandated grades of unleaded gasoline.

[PBVBROOK]

The left could have had their social programs, the right could have had their theocracy, the libertarians could have had their quasi-freedom and the south could have had thier slaves.

^^Fixed.

[PredatorOC]

I don't do typos. Please don't misrepresent me.

[Paradigm]

I have an idea. How about everyone stops thinking they have a moral right to dictate to other people how they should live?

Ironic that you're doing exactly that.

[PredatorOC]

Ironic that you're doing exactly that.

I'm dictating to other people how they should live by saying they don't have a moral right to dictate to other people how they should live?

Riiiiight.

[Paradigm]

I'm dictating to other people how they should live by saying they don't have a moral right to dictate to other people how they should live?

Saying we should abide by state law instead of federal law certainly sounds to me like dictating how we should live. What make you so special that you know what's good for us?

[ninurta]

I'm dictating to other people how they should live by saying they don't have a moral right to dictate to other people how they should live?

Are you a libertarian? You sound like one. If you are, good. I am one too and I agree with you. If not, you just sounded like one.

[Zerogouki]

Saying we should abide by state law instead of federal law certainly sounds to me like dictating how we should live.

How do you figure?

[Paradigm]

How do you figure?

Why should you make me choose state over federal? What gives you the right to make that choice for me?

[Hot Choco]

Why should you make me choose state over federal? What gives you the right to make that choice for me?

He wasn't dictating how everyone lives, he was dictating how the nation's government should work, and since this proposed government would not be dictating how people live, neither was he by proxy.

Luck this isn't some sort of politics forum otherwise his post would make complete sense and be completely valid.

[Paradigm]

He wasn't dictating how everyone lives, he was dictating how the nation's government should work

And this doesn't affect how I live my life?

Honestly, libertarians love to tell people how to live their life.: "Don't join a union! No you can't use my private property! I have a government-backed piece of paper which says it's my property, so you I'll fucking shoot you if you use it! And don't you dare tax my legal tender money! Better yet, you'd better use gold as money, because I'm a fucking idiot who thinks that money means a shiney metal!"

It's a bunch of self-righteous bullshit. You want to talk about rights? Fine. I have a right as a citizen to expect my government to do what is best for its citizens, and in turn have an obligation to pay my dues to that government. You don't like it? Go move to a cave somewhere in the middle of nowhere and fend for yourself. People have done it before. I'll just stay here in civilization where we use government to look after the general welfare of its citizens.

[Zerogouki]

Why should you make me choose state over federal? What gives you the right to make that choice for me?

Nobody is choosing anything for you. What Pred is saying is that you'd have a bigger voice in your own government, less corruption, and more freedom to live in a place where the government's ideals match your own, if the USA operated as was originally intended, with the states being sovereign and Federal power extremely limited. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of telling you how to live. I have no idea how you can conflate two diametrically opposing concepts.

Must be a leftist thing.

And this doesn't affect how I live my life?

It does, but only in the sense of showing you how to get other people to NOT tell you how to live your life.

Honestly, libertarians love to tell people how to live their life.

To you, apparently, "honestly" means "I'm about to spew some ridiculous strawman bullshit"...

"Don't join a union!

Since when have libertarians been opposed to the right to organize into unions? That's the exact opposite of what libertarians believe. Seriously, show me one libertarian who thinks unions should be illegal.

No you can't use my private property! I have a government-backed piece of paper which says it's my property, so you I'll fucking shoot you if you use it!

That's not telling you how to live your life, that's telling you not to live our lives.

And don't you dare tax my legal tender money!

Very few libertarians are opposed to all forms of taxation. A lot of them have a specific issue with the personal income tax for some reason that I can never fathom, but that's not really a tenet of libertarian philosophy.

Better yet, you'd better use gold as money

This is an Austrian School thing, not a libertarian thing, although there does seem to be a godawful amount of overlap.

[Hot Choco]

And this doesn't affect how I live my life?

This is a politics forum, is it not? Phred is allowed to express opinions on how the government should work.

Honestly, libertarians love to tell people how to live their life.

Nope; libertarians want the opposite.

"Don't join a union!

Libertarians, for the most part, support voluntary unions.

No you can't use my private property!

Well duh.

I have a government-backed piece of paper which says it's my property, so you I'll fucking shoot you if you use it!

Are you honestly suggesting that fighting back when somebody tries to infringe your property is the same as dictating how other people should live? If so, I have no words.

And don't you dare tax my legal tender money! Better yet, you'd better use gold as money, because I'm a fucking idiot who thinks that money means a shiney metal!

What do you think money should be?

It's a bunch of self-righteous bullshit.

Okay, let's recount the liberal mantra. "Don't earn too much money! OMG corporations are so greedy omg!!!!111!!! nevermind the fact that I voluntary pay for mars bars, coca-cola, mcdonalds, nivea, microsoft products, ford cars, wal-mart goods and all the rest! nevermind the fact that I voluntarily pay for all those things and nobody forces me to buy them, I'm being robbed by the nasty, evil, baby-killing, worker-oppressing, greedy, fat cat capitalist business owners!!!11111!!!1!!! and omg owning guns is evil! owning too much money is evil! owning anything is evil! omg evil greedy capitalists!!!111!!!1 oh noes!!111!!"

Now I'm sure you don't subscribe to these views, but this is what some liberals believe, and now I'm doing what you're doing.

[Zerogouki]

What do you think money should be?

A piece of paper with the words "100 trillion Zimbabwe dollars" written on it, of course.

Okay, let's recount the liberal mantra. "Don't earn too much money! OMG corporations are so greedy omg!!!!! nevermind the fact that I voluntary pay for mars bars, coca-cola, mcdonalds, nivea, microsoft products, ford cars, wal-mart goods and all the rest! nevermind the fact that I voluntarily pay for all those things and nobody forces me to buy them, I'm being robbed by the nasty, evil, baby-killing, worker-oppressing, greedy, fat cat capitalist business owners!!!11111!!!1!!! and omg owning guns is evil! owning too much money is evil! owning anything is evil! omg evil greedy capitalists!!!111!!!1 oh noes!!111!!"

You forgot the part where people who sit on their asses all day long doing nothing are entitled to free money to support their drug habit and free health care when their drug habit lands them in the hospital.

[PredatorOC]

It's a bunch of self-righteous bullshit. You want to talk about rights? Fine. I have a right as a citizen to expect my government to do what is best for its citizens, and in turn have an obligation to pay my dues to that government. You don't like it? Go move to a cave somewhere in the middle of nowhere and fend for yourself. People have done it before. I'll just stay here in civilization where we use government to look after the general welfare of its citizens.

Vae victis!

Hey, at least you are being honest. I use moral arguments out of the rather naïve hope that people actually care whether their actions are moral or not. But based on observations, that just isn't the case. As you have laid out above, you don't actually care if you violate other people as long as you get what you want.

Might makes right. Why babble on about politics and morality and the rest. Choose your weapon and we'll see who survives. No point in trying to coexist, let alone cooperate.

[Hot Choco]

You forgot the part where people who sit on their asses all day long doing nothing are entitled to free money to support their drug habit and free health care when their drug habit lands them in the hospital.

How could I exclude this moral gem from the liberal philosophy?

[Gletkin]

And we progressives can’t even articulate our ideas, not to mention enact them into law. Clearly we are not ready to lead.

So it is time for me to move a bit to the right and I would encourage other liberals to do so also.

This is capitulation.
What "progressives"...what ANYONE in this situation should do is get their act together, not throw in the towel.
They've worked too hard and too long to overturn "the Republican Revolution" to just quit now. If "progressives" suck, the electorate can always throw them out next year and in 2012.
Also, why specifically endorse a particular ideology? Why "the right" and not "libertarians" or "socialists"? If liberals can't lead then let the chips fall where they may...no need to explicitly endorse a "successor".

I'm dictating to other people how they should live by saying they don't have a moral right to dictate to other people how they should live?

Actually yes.
Whether you're saying "You should do what he tells you to do" or "You should'nt let others tell you what to do", either way you're telling a guy what to do or don't do. If you REALLY believed that people can and should make up their own minds, you'd stay silent.

He wasn't dictating how everyone lives, he was dictating how the nation's government should work, and since this proposed government would not be dictating how people live, neither was he by proxy.

Local, state, national...ALL governments "dictate" how people live.

If it's "wrong" for government at a national level to pursue liberal/socialist policies even when they explicitly campaigned for such policies and were freely and fairly elected on such a platform, how would it be "less wrong" at a state or even local level?
If I'm a capitalist libertarian how is it any better for me for local govt. to "steal my property" rather than national government?

What difference does it make? Government power is government power.

[Hot Choco]

If it's "wrong" for government at a national level to pursue liberal/socialist policies even when they explicitly campaigned for such policies and were freely and fairly elected on such a platform, how would it be "less wrong" at a state or even local level?
If I'm a capitalist libertarian how is it any better for me for local govt. to "steal my property" rather than national government?

What difference does it make? Government power is government power.

No disagreements from me.

[Dr House]

Saying we should abide by state law instead of federal law certainly sounds to me like dictating how we should live. What make you so special that you know what's good for us?

To my knowledge Predator is an ancap, which means he doesn't want you to live by any legal code you yourself don't wanna follow.