[Mr. Hampton]

Has anyone seen the movie A Clockwork Orange?

This suggests a way of freeing up jails and reducing crime rates by "reforming" criminals with a special treatment, that makes them feel sick to violent events so that they can psychologically not do them.
The controversy here is if the criminals have the choice of being good or bad.
The treatment does not make a person good, but only "disables" him of perpetuating these acts.

A higly good movie which I recomend.
[/quote]

[The_Communist_Threat]

I don't believe that anyone who has committed a serious crime (rape, 1 and 2nd degree murder) should ever be allowed to be a free man. Even with a treatment to make them "good" they still committed a crime, and they must be punished.

If they don't, plain old death penalty. But still it should be carried out when there is 100% proof of the crime.

The 100% proof is a must. There has to be scientific evidence for the death penalty.

[sokath]

Despite the fact that I am bringing this discussion back off topic for a second, REAL black coffee means that it has no cream/milk OR sugar... no NOTHING.

To anybody who says otherwise. I say faugh to you sirrah!

(It's late, forgive me, I'm very sensitive about my coffee)

S./

[Man On The Moon]

it could be viewed as a cut and paste affair-

you commit a serious crime, with 100% proof of guilt, you die.

if it were that simple, im sure there would be fewer objections.

[Wilhelm]

For example, someone here told me about a guy in Australia who shot at lots of people in the light of day. Everybody saw him..

So, that is a 100% provable crime.

Unless there is proof that can't be appealed against, capital punishment chould not be used.

[Adrien]

I'm against death penalty because i don't see why a human being should dispose of another's life. But those who say it is justified in extreme cases have a point too, after all.

Well, for serious crimes, if we don't choose death penalty, i guess we'd choose prison for life like now. And i don't think this kind of punishement is very useful, for the society or the prisoner.

Arf, i can't manage to have a final advice... I'll think about it again.

[The_Communist_Threat]

Well, for serious crimes, if we don't choose death penalty, i guess we'd choose prison for life like now. And i don't think this kind of punishement is very useful, for the society or the prisoner.

No it wouldn't be...but we should force the son of a bitch to work..and that way he produces for society and he gets fed....

you commit a serious crime, with 100% proof of guilt, you die.

if it were that simple, im sure there would be fewer objections.

Like i said before though, death would not be a punishment for some people....so, make them work...

[Adrien]

Yes you're right, work is a good alternative.

But it would be good not to make camps, cause anti communists would catch the argument of a new goulag.

But.. that's imaginating the existence of a communist state nowadays.

[Man On The Moon]

the initial problem is ingored, if you genuinly have a human being so detatched from anything we consider sane that he neither cared nor feared anything, and he simply refused to work, what would be done with him? if he was say, a compasionless and mericless killer with no pity, who cared not if he died or was locked away for ever, the death penalty would be the only option for him.

[Krasniy Yastreb]

Despite the fact that I am bringing this discussion back off topic for a second, REAL black coffee means that it has no cream/milk OR sugar... no NOTHING.

To anybody who says otherwise. I say faugh to you sirrah!

(It's late, forgive me, I'm very sensitive about my coffee)

S./

Erm, I stand corrected then.

That coffee of mine was still way too strong though, it made me ill the next day.

Can I once again stress that I am still obsessed with the almighty firing squad. Thank you.

[El Cid]

Why is the death penalty allowed in the U.S but a controversy in China? Because of the "inhuman" way they kill the criminals in China? Surely I would prefer a swift shot in the head instead of a slow, and very painful death, by a needle.

It's best there be no death penalty at all.

[The Sword and Shield]

Im neutral.

[Sapper]

I haven't been following this thread but here is my opinion on the death penalty (actually I stole it from some article linked at the bottom):

Crime is out of control on a world-wide basis, especially in the US. People are out of control, not taking responsibility for themselves or their actions. Population growth is out of control on a world-wide level. The judicial system of the US is a joke. The political system of the US and most countries world-wide is a joke, corrupted and polluted by greed and power-hungry people who don't care about the population they were elected or appointed to serve. Under the governing body the Omega Agency plans to put in power, this would end. End of trial by jury. End of living off of society and not contributing your fair share. End of taking advantage of others for one's own personal gain. All who are able would contribute to the growth and well-being of the world's society, or they would pay the price for not pulling their fair share.

Basically, the OA doesn't care what people do to amuse themselves, entertain themselves, etc., as long as they are working and contributing to the society as a whole. But there will be zero tolerance of any act that hurts/harms another. Crimes against another or against society will be met with the death penalty, if such crime is of a severe nature such as murder, rape or robbery. What is now considered a felony crime will be punishable by death. What is now considered a misdemeanor crime will be punishable by imprisonment on a work farm for a number of years equal to what the OA considers suitable payback for the said crime against society. These work farms will be in the business of growing food, manufacture of clothing, textiles, etc. People sent to these farms will work for the specified time, or will be eliminated.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/omega.html

I don't believe the conspiracy, but I do like the way crime would be handled.

[Catria]

The Death penalty. So simple, so easy...and so wrong.

Holding up execution as "justice" for a crime committed is a common feature of the coursest, most brutal societies and is really just a politicized term for revenge. Anger, hatred, rage...is not justice. There is nothing to be gained by this except a brutalizing effect on the society.

An *eye for an eye* belongs to the age of savagery, not modern life. Despite being the world's most powerful democracy, the US ranks third in the world among countries which execute its criminal citizens and is the only country to openly support execution for juveniles. China, Iran, the Democratic Republic of Congo and Saudi Arabia are some of the others who believe the death penalty is a swell solution...nice company.

Though others may scoff, there's a really, really important principle at stake here...and that is the doctrine of human rights, which has to be upheld for everyone, regardless of race, creed, gender or the crimes a person has committed. Premeditated murder by the state is a glaring offence to human rights, the first of which is the inalienable right to live. Even when a person has taken this right from someone else, we STILL should uphold the murderers right to live...else we degrade the meaning of this basic human right and condone death as a solution. ~Two wrongs don't make a right~ has always made more sense to me than ~an eye for an eye~. Remember that the concept of human rights benefits us all...we might need it one day. If you should ever find yourself confronted with a false accusation for a serious crime, you'd be grateful for it. It protects the innocent much more than any death penalty ever could.


But leaving that aside, the strongest argument against the death penalty is that it just doesn't work.

There's no evidence, anywhere in the world that execution reduces murder rates or any other crime for which it is applied in other countries. So if it has no deterrent value and doesn't reduce crime...what good is it except to *punish* and thus satisfy the basest feelings of revenge and hatred, which shouldn't be pandered to by the State? Attempting to eliminate societal problems through capital punishment has never been an effective solution.

We're now left with the argument of *removing the offender* so he cant hurt anyone else, though clearly this can be accomplished by imprisonment. But execution will be cheaper than imprisonment...right? Well no, contrary to popular belief...execution is MORE expensive than imprisonment.

"Elimination of the death penalty would result in a net savings to the state of at least several tens of millions of dollars annually, and a net savings to local governments in the millions to tens of millions of dollars on a statewide basis." --Joint Legislative Budget Committee of the California Legislature, Sept. 9, 1999

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7


But what of re-offenders?

The answer is here is to review the parole procedures in place with a view to preventing relapses into crime. But violent crime rates are higher in America, a country that HAS the death penalty, than in countries that dont have it...does anyone really believe more execution=less crime? And if you are concerned about the death of innocents, then you should also be concerned about the wrongful execution of innocent people who can get no pardon from death. Plus there is no system which can be conceivably be capable of deciding fairly, consistently and infallibly who should live and who should die. Much about the death penalty is decided by erratic public opinion, political and mass media opportunism and finally how rich you are and how good your legal team is. It's highly debatable how fairly death is distributed.


I cant see that the death penalty has anything going for it at all, and has plenty of potential for doing bad, but I'll leave the last word on that to Amnesty Inernational.

It is the irrevocable nature of the death penalty that makes it so tempting as a tool of repression. Thousands have been put to death under one government only to be recognized as innocent victims when a new government comes to power. As long as the death penalty is accepted as a legitimate form of punishment, the possibility of political misuse will remain. Only abolition can ensure that such political abuse of the death penalty will never occur.

[grinner]

The death penalty makes much more sense than the life penalty. Why we'd pay for sewage, food and security for somone for 50 years is crazy. A bullet cost less than a buck. We could use that money to feed and shelter the homeless, pay off the so-called defecit or better yet, give it to victims or their families.
In the case of rape or murder, a just world would simply turn the convicted over to the family of the victim. If they choose to torchure for 20 years, justice. If they choose to forgive, justice. All sex crimes should result in castration. This way it won't happen again.

[Mr. Smith]

I'm a strong believer in convict labour. So I think that no life should be simply thrown away so it is best for someone to work there debt to society off rotting away on some Prison Farm.

However if a criminal becomes so distruptive or violent in prison that other convicts can not perform there duties or their life is at risk the Prisoner causing it should be shot.

[Il Porko]

Why we'd pay for sewage, food and security for somone for 50 years is crazy. A bullet cost less than a buck. We could use that money to feed and shelter the homeless, pay off the so-called defecit or better yet, give it to victims or their families

I used to think that this was the case as well. Then I found out that the cost of the appeals, and lawyers and the execution itself often add up to as much as the jail/ life sentence.

IMO, if you're going to have a death penalty, you should have polygraphs. There's a new form of polygraph that was developed after September 11 (probably before, but made public to ease the worry over a potential repeat). If a polygraph (lie detector) can prove guilt, and the death penalty isdeserved, for ape or murder and such other crimes, then a good, quick, cheap death is an economic solution to the problem.

Otherwise, I think that forced labour is a good idea.

[Noumenon]

I'm for the death penalty, but only in cases where there were multiple witnesses and good DNA eveidence to prove guilt 100%. Otherwise, its not worth risking having innocents die. Some statistics used by the anti-death penalty lobby are wrong, such as the one claiming there were dozens of people released from death row in America for being innocent; in fact, innocence could not be proven in 90% of those cases, it was just a matter of not being 100% sure they were guilty. Deterrence has nothing to do with it, in my opinion, its only justice. Lets face it, eye for an eye is the basis for justice. If it was an eye for nothing, there would be no justice. How can it be justice if someone stabs your eye out, and they get no punishment or a punishment less harsh than having their own eye stabbed out? Justice is about balance, my eye being taken out balances out your eye being taken out. However, I think the death penalty should be carried out humanely, just to be civilized, even if thats not the full justice that murderers deserve. Lethal injection is by far the most humane form of execution, because criminals are put under anesthesia and don't feel pain and are not aware of whats happening.

[Il Porko]

Lethal injection is by far the most humane form of execution, because criminals are put under anesthesia and don't feel pain and are not aware of whats happening.

Actually.... There are two stages to lethal injection. The first series of drugs parlyse the subject, so that they don't jump too much while dying from the second round of chemicals. Maybe this has changed recently, but that's how it was traditioanlly done.

[Noumenon]

http://people.howstuffworks.com/lethal-injection4.htm

It seems that anesthesia is generally used, but in some cases it is used in large lethal doses. Still, you'd think any large amount of anesthesia would dull the pain and knock you out, even if it kills you. Seems like the most humane form of execution to me.