[Steve_American]

Luke Gromen: "Peak Cheap Oil and the Global Reserve Currency" | The Great Simplification #91 Nate Hagens
1.5 hr.
Mr. Gromen is not an MMTer, neither is Nate. He is here because he understands Nate's key point that energy is the money of all other life forms and so, it actually is also key to our money.

@Puffer_Fish, I disagree with a lot of this so you may love it.

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[Potemkin]

Luke Gromen: "Peak Cheap Oil and the Global Reserve Currency" | The Great Simplification #91 Nate Hagens
1.5 hr.
Mr. Gromen is not an MMTer, neither is Nate. He is here because he understands Nate's key point that energy is the money of all other life forms and so, it actually is also key to our money.

@Puffer_Fish, I disagree with a lot of this so you may love it.

.

Energy is not the money of any life form, human or otherwise. Money is a medium of exchange, something which animals do not usually require in their interactions with each other. Money is something which only humans use, and even that is a relatively recent thing. Money, in the sense of a medium of exchange which replaced bartering, is actually congealed labour-power the possession of which entitles the holder to a certain share of the collective social wealth. We contribute our share to the social wealth by working, and are rewarded with tokens entitling us to a certain fixed share of that social wealth. We call these tokens ‘money’. Energy, on the other hand, is merely one factor of production among others, and cannot in and of itself function as a medium of exchange.

[Tainari88]

Energy is not the money of any life form, human or otherwise. Money is a medium of exchange, something which animals do not usually require in their interactions with each other. Money is something which only humans use, and even that is a relatively recent thing. Money, in the sense of a medium of exchange which replaced bartering, is actually congealed labour-power the possession of which entitles the holder to a certain share of the collective social wealth. We contribute our share to the social wealth by working, and are rewarded with tokens entitling us to a certain fixed share of that social wealth. We call these tokens ‘money’. Energy, on the other hand, is merely one factor of production among others, and cannot in and of itself function as a medium of exchange.

But, too many people are addicted to the idea of this token, they lose their minds over the tokens. The tokens become God. How weird are humans eh?

People betray their mother, their sister, their brother, their spouses, their children, commit murder, and every sin there is to worship the TOKENS.

Humanity with Greed is CRAZY.

[Potemkin]

But, too many people are addicted to the idea of this token, they lose their minds over the tokens. The tokens become God. How weird are humans eh?

People betray their mother, their sister, their brother, their spouses, their children, commit murder, and every sin there is to worship the TOKENS.

Humanity with Greed is CRAZY.

Indeed. As Marx pointed out, there is a fetishisation of the medium of exchange, so that production becomes for profit rather than for need, and the real and concrete relations of social life are sacrificed for a phantasm, to collect more ration coupons than your neighbour. Bits of paper are valued higher than one’s own immortal soul, or the social bonds between family members. What is real becomes unreal, and what is unreal becomes real. A phantasm is worshipped and reality itself is sacrificed to it. It is a form of insanity, quite literally.

[Steve_American]

2] Energy is not the money of any life form, human or otherwise. Money is a medium of exchange, something which animals do not usually require in their interactions with each other. Money is something which only humans use, and even that is a relatively recent thing. Money, in the sense of a medium of exchange 1] which replaced bartering, is actually congealed labour-power the possession of which entitles the holder to a certain share of the collective social wealth. We contribute our share to the social wealth by working, and are rewarded with tokens entitling us to a certain fixed share of that social wealth. We call these tokens ‘money’. Energy, on the other hand, is merely one factor of production among others, and cannot in and of itself function as a medium of exchange.

1] You're wrong to base your opinion on the origins of money on the false theories of MainStream economists. Some few of them have now changed their minds and accepted that that story was wrong. The true origin of money was that it developed out of credit systems. Anthropologists and ancient historians agree that there is zero evidence that any society ever used barter before money.

2] Saying that animals use energy as money is an analogy. You don't like it, fine.
However, it is true that animals and even plants strive to get the use of energy. It is fundamental to life.
The economist, Steve Keen, likes to say that laborers without energy are corpses, and capital/machines without energy are sculptures. Steve attacks MS econ. as being energy blind. They ignore the fundamental necessity for energy, and even worse, that once used it is dissipated into the air and can't be used again.
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[Potemkin]

1] You're wrong to base your opinion on the origins of money on the false theories of MainStream economists. Some few of them have now changed their minds and accepted that that story was wrong. The true origin of money was that it developed out of credit systems. Anthropologists and ancient historians agree that there is zero evidence that any society ever used barter before money.

2] Saying that animals use energy as money is an analogy. You don't like it, fine.
However, it is true that animals and even plants strive to get the use of energy. It is fundamental to life.
The economist, Steve Keen, likes to say that laborers without energy are corpses, and capital/machines without energy are sculptures. Steve attacks MS econ. as being energy blind. They ignore the fundamental necessity for energy, and even worse, that once used it is dissipated into the air and can't be used again.
.

Mainstream economists don’t ignore the importance of energy - it is, after all, a vital factor of production. It’s why factories used to be built beside streams, to use hydroelectric energy to run the machines. But land is also a vital factor of production, as is air and sunlight and access to raw resources and so on. One of the reasons why the Industrial Revolution happened in Britain first was because all of the factors of production were present and accessible to us - Britain had been blessed with huge reserves of coal and iron ore, huge numbers of streams and rivers, a temperate climate and a stable and strongly centralised government. Everything we needed was to hand. And mainstream economists also understand that energy can be used only once - heat energy is not useful energy. This has been known since at least the time of Carnot.

No, energy is not money, not even by analogy. You may as well say that land is money, since it too is a vital factor of production. Money is a medium of exchange which circulates in the economy, passing from person to person without being ‘used up’. Energy is not a medium of exchange, but a factor of production.

[Steve_American]

Mainstream economists don’t ignore the importance of energy - it is, after all, a vital factor of production. It’s why factories used to be built beside streams, to use hydroelectric energy to run the machines. But land is also a vital factor of production, as is air and sunlight and access to raw resources and so on. One of the reasons why the Industrial Revolution happened in Britain first was because all of the factors of production were present and accessible to us - Britain had been blessed with huge reserves of coal and iron ore, huge numbers of streams and rivers, a temperate climate and a stable and strongly centralised government. Everything we needed was to hand. And mainstream economists also understand that energy can be used only once - heat energy is not useful energy. This has been known since at least the time of Carnot.

No, energy is not money, not even by analogy. You may as well say that land is money, since it too is a vital factor of production. Money is a medium of exchange which circulates in the economy, passing from person to person without being ‘used up’. Energy is not a medium of exchange, but a factor of production.

I have seen several economists say that MS economists say that combining Capital with Labor is all that is included in the theory to produce stuff. That they assume that money can always buy more of anything that is needed. That a substitute can always be found to replace any missing ingredient. On a finite planet, these assumptions will someday be proven wrong. Then what will billions of people do? Die?
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[Potemkin]

I have seen several economists say that MS economists say that combining Capital with Labor is all that is included in the theory to produce stuff. That they assume that money can always buy more of anything that is needed. That a substitute can always be found to replace any missing ingredient. On a finite planet, these assumptions will someday be proven wrong. Then what will billions of people do? Die?
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If any of the necessary factors of production are no longer available, then yes. The economy would collapse and there would likely be a mass die-off. What’s your point?

[Tainari88]

If any of the necessary factors of production are no longer available, then yes. The economy would collapse and there would likely be a mass die-off. What’s your point?

It is all about what you have in your mind. Imaginary value.

Why is it that I do not love it like I love the spirit of wonderful people eh?

[Potemkin]

It is all about what you have in your mind. Imaginary value.

Why is it that I do not love it like I love the spirit of wonderful people eh?

Because you understand what is real and what is not real, querida.

[Tainari88]

Because you understand what is real and what is not real, querida.

Why are we born eh? To be in the pursuit of an imaginary value and that flows and goes? Or to love and serve one another and make this world a great place to have made the journey to?

All this time and effort spent in the pursuit of sheer shit. I do not understand why.

[Potemkin]

Why are we born eh? To be in the pursuit of an imaginary value and that flows and goes? Or to love and serve one another and make this world a great place to have made the journey to?

All this time and effort spent in the pursuit of sheer shit. I do not understand why.

Because these people have a void at the centre of their being, and they don’t know how to fill it. This is why there is no end to their greed - no amount of money is enough to fill that void. Because only love can fill it.

[Tainari88]

Because these people have a void at the centre of their being, and they don’t know how to fill it. This is why there is no end to their greed - no amount of money is enough to fill that void. Because only love can fill it.

Love is the true currency that everyone should pursue Potemkin. Unfortunately they do not do that.

[Potemkin]

Love is the true currency that everyone should pursue Potemkin. Unfortunately they do not do that.

Love makes everything else worthwhile. It is the only currency which gives value to everything else, and which never runs out. The more you give, the more you get.

[Steve_American]

If any of the necessary factors of production are no longer available, then yes. The economy would collapse and there would likely be a mass die-off. What’s your point?

That is a good question.

I suppose that I have a few things to say on that.
1] Exponential growth will always have to end someday. Exponential growth means there is always a doubling time of use or growth. A bank acc. can grow without limit if it is in a fiat currency, because the Gov. can never run out of zeros to add to accounts.
. . . OTOH, the economy needs real stuff to grow. If it is growing at 3% per year the doubling time is just 24 years, rounding to 25 is OK. So, the world will all at the same time run out of some critical resource, like oil and gas. Doubling the amount in the ground that we can extract only puts that someday off by 24 years. Doubling it again only puts that someday off by another 25 years. Four times more oil and gas to extract only delays that day by 50 years.

2] Economists have ignored the above facts. They have driven us toward the cliff at a speed that grows at about 3%/yr. As a result the world population has reached 8 billion. There is no way that there are enough metal ores in the ground for us to replace oil and gas with electric cars and everything else for just 2 billion people who live like Europeans or 1 billion living like Americans. And, it would take a few to several decades to extract all the ore and refine the metal.

3] The economists and the capitalists & opinion makers who listened to the economists ought to be held responsible for the mess we are in. It is regrettable that our system will not punish them. Maybe karma will do it for us.

4] Some experts think that we passed peak oil in 2018. So, by 2030 oil prices will be increasing rapidly to pay extra to extract the more expensive oil and there will be less of it. There will be a bidding war or real war to decide who gets to burn the oil.
. . . I predict that by 2050 the oil extracted each day will seem like a trickle compared to the demand. So, 90% will get none, and 10% will get much less than an average European does now.

5] So, billions will die. This is the result of not stopping exponential growth 50 years ago. Remember, exponential use of a finite resource must always end. And having 4 times more just delays the end by 2 doubling times or in this case by 50 years.

BTW -- miming of metal ores always creates waste that ends up releasing poison into the environment. Doing this very fast to meet the demand will poison the world.

[Steve_American]

Love is the true currency that everyone should pursue Potemkin. Unfortunately they do not do that.

I also agree.

This why my saying to us now is

Make Love, not stuff.