Polarisation, Then a Crash: Michael Hudson on the Rentier Economy. A must watch video of 14 mo. ago. - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15211377
Polarisation, Then a Crash: Michael Hudson on the Rentier Economy. 41 min. long.

A must watch video from 14 mo. ago.

Adam Smith's classic 1776 economics book, "The Wealth of Nations" makes a big deal out of defining a "free economy" as an economy free of a rentier class extracting wealth without producing anything. It just sucks wealth in return for nothing. Today this is the FIRE sector. Dr. Hudson explains how it increases the cost of production in the US so much that we can't export much except lumber and food. The rentier class includes owners of corps with monopoly power, land owners, banks, etc.
. . . That the Gov. should be providing these services so that corps don't have to pay for them, nor their workers. Things like no toll roads, almost free public transportation, health care, education through grad school, other natural monopolies (water, electricity, etc.) and others.
. . . That the rentier class should be paying high taxes, and the workers and industrial corps lower taxes That it is the other way around now.




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#15211386
Why work for a living when you can get other people to work for a living and then give you lots of money? This is what owning stuff (capital, land, etc) allows you to do. Rent-seeking is not some abnormal or illegitimate activity under capitalism, it is in fact the essence of capitalism. It is the fundamental distinction between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat - those who own capital, and those who don’t.
#15211401
Potemkin wrote:Why work for a living when you can get other people to work for a living and then give you lots of money? This is what owning stuff (capital, land, etc) allows you to do. Rent-seeking is not some abnormal or illegitimate activity under capitalism, it is in fact the essence of capitalism. It is the fundamental distinction between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat - those who own capital, and those who don’t.

I suspect that Dr. Hudson would say that this attitude is part of the current problem. He said that rentier income should be taxed at a higher rate.
#15211402
Steve_American wrote:I suspect that Dr. Hudson would say that this attitude is part of the current problem. He said that rentier income should be taxed at a higher rate.

It’s not an “attitude” - it’s just how capitalism works.
#15211408
Potemkin wrote:
Why work for a living when you can get other people to work for a living and then give you lots of money? This is what owning stuff (capital, land, etc) allows you to do. Rent-seeking is not some abnormal or illegitimate activity under capitalism, it is in fact the essence of capitalism. It is the fundamental distinction between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat - those who own capital, and those who don’t.



Not to split hairs, but at least *equity capital* is *productive*, to make things that many need for life and living, by exploiting the proletariat -- in contrast to *rentier* capital, which is *non-productive* of any commodities.

Here's recently, from another thread:


ckaihatsu wrote:
To be fair, though, there *is* a difference between [1] rentier capital (landlords and their non-commodity-producing assets / resources), and [2] equity capital that by-definition exploits the working class to produce *commodities* (goods and/or services) for people's modern norms of well-being and consumption.

(Rentier capital expropriates from *both* the proletariat *and* the bourgeoisie / equity-capital, by exacting rents and interest payments as reward for simple *wealth ownership* -- non-commodity-productive assets and/or resources, like land or cash. This is capitalism's economic overhead and happens to be feudal-like and historically regressive / reactionary.)



viewtopic.php?p=15209946#p15209946
#15211410
What Hudson is missing, though, is how the owners / participants / players in capitalism -- those with capital -- are supposed to all *self-organize* the vast number of differentiated parcels of land, and natural resources, etc., in the first place (from genocide), so that actual equity-capital *commodity production* can then happen, as at factories on that land.

It's called 'private property', of course -- that's how, and then it's set into form by the overarching capitalist state.

Once someone owns land, it's *theirs*, it's official, and the more-complex more-interesting capitalist productive economy can then commence *on top* of that.

For that accompanying material 'service' of owning / organizing a portion of the total land surface area, in relation to all others through private ownership, the owner is rewarded in these retro-feudal ways by expropriating regular rent and interest payments from the larger, hopefully-growth-oriented capitalist economy. That whole system of parceled-out private property of land is called 'social organization' for the capitalist mode of production.


Components of Components of Social Production

Spoiler: show
Image



Components of Social Production

Spoiler: show
Image
#15211413
late wrote:Sure, if you lack regulation.

Regulation is something imposed upon the capitalist mode of production from an external source (usually the state apparatus). Capitalists therefore react to it as something hostile and alien to them, which it is, and seek to lessen its power or even remove it altogether. This is essentially the history of capitalism for the past forty years. They are not about to change course now, are they?
#15211418
Potemkin wrote:Regulation is something imposed upon the capitalist mode of production from an external source (usually the state apparatus). Capitalists therefore react to it as something hostile and alien to them, which it is, and seek to lessen its power or even remove it altogether. This is essentially the history of capitalism for the past forty years. They are not about to change course now, are they?

Capitalism has been around since about 1600, the last 40 years is 1/10 of that long.
Yes, most capitalists have been greedy sociopaths for all those 400 years.
So what, Adam Smith is one of the founders of economics and he said 2 things about this.
. . 1] A free economy is one free of a large rentier class. Or any rentier class.
. . 2] Capitalism without morals and ethics will be very bad. Or, something like that. IIRC.

Neo-liberal economic theory was created to give a reason why Smith was wrong. That unbridled greed is not bad, in fact it is the best way to organize an economy. After 40 years of it I can see a host of problems that prove that greed in not a good way to organize an economy. Starting with it is greed that has stopped the world from reacting to ACC aka AGW soon enough to avoid a disaster.
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Last edited by Steve_American on 10 Feb 2022 15:11, edited 1 time in total.
#15211419
Rugoz wrote:Says who? I don't think getting a real return on your savings is necessarily unjustified.

Inheritance is the problem, if you ask me.

When a nation is off the gold standard and has a fiat currency, the nation's Gov. can open a 'savings bank' that pays interest of 2% above the CPI inflation. Does this satisfy your desire to have a return on savings?
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#15211421
Steve_American wrote:Capitalism has been around since about 1600, the last 40 years in 1/10 of that long.
Yes, most capitalists have been greedy sociopaths for all those 400 years.
So what, Adam Smith is one of the founders of economics and he said 2 things about this.
. . 1] A free economy is one free of a large rentier class. Or any rentier class.
. . 2] Capitalism without morals and ethics will be very bad. Or, something like that. IIRC.

Exactly. Smith wrote two major works - the Wealth of Nations and a weighty tome on ethics and morality. He regarded his work on ethics as being the more important of the two. Guess which one the neoliberals ignore?

But my point remains - ethics, just like government regulation, is something external to capitalism and capitalists react to it as something hostile and alien to them, which it is. As Gordon Gekko proclaimed, “Greed is good!”

Neo-liberal economic theory was created to give a reason why Smith was wrong.

Indeed. And this is why it’s rather ironic that the people who broke from Smith’s classical economics are the very same people who sing his praises and name Institutes after him. Maybe they’re trying to soothe their bad consciences? Lol.

That unbridled greed is not bad, in fact it is the best way to organize an economy. After 40 years of it I can see a host of problems that prove that greed in not a good way to organize an economy. Starting with it is greed that has stopped the world from reacting to ACC aka AGW soon enough to avoid a disaster.
.

Agreed. But how are you going to impose morality on the capitalist system? To most capitalists, the highest moral good, the summum bonum of life, is money. Imposing government regulation on them is difficult enough, but imposing morality on them would be impossible.
#15211422
Potemkin wrote:
Indeed. And this is why it’s rather ironic that the people who broke from Smith’s classical economics are the very same people who sing his praises and name Institutes after him. Maybe they’re trying to soothe their bad consciences? Lol.



(Like any religion.) (!)


Potemkin wrote:
Agreed. But how are you going to impose morality on the capitalist system? To most capitalists, the highest moral good, the summum bonum of life, is money. Imposing government regulation on them is difficult enough, but imposing morality on them would be impossible.



Yup.
#15211437
Potemkin wrote:
Regulation is something imposed upon the capitalist mode of production from an external source (usually the state apparatus). Capitalists therefore react to it as something hostile and alien to them, which it is, and seek to lessen its power or even remove it altogether. This is essentially the history of capitalism for the past forty years. They are not about to change course now, are they?



It's not automatic and things can change.

Look at the history, TR added a bunch of regulations. Other countries do a much better job of regulating business than we do.
#15211499
wat0n wrote:
Neoliberalism doesn't make any claims about greed at all. It does make plenty about efficiency though.

And it was not invented to prove anything about Smith - he, along with Marxian economists, was proven wrong on the LTV decades before neoliberalism was a thing.



Okay, if you're going to continue (from past threads) to be so *dismissive* of the labor theory of value, then where *does* value come from, exactly? What is the exchange value of one dollar (or other currency) -- ?
#15211526
wat0n wrote:
Pick up a mainstream econ book. Samuelson's is pretty good.



Okay, I got something for that....



A hard rain

The long boom came to an abrupt end in the autumn of 1973, as Western economies went into recession simultaneously for the first time since the 1930s and unemployment doubled. This was enough to produce panic in government and business circles everywhere. Mainstream economists had never been able to explain how the slump of the 1930s had happened, and none of them could be sure they were not facing a similar situation.

In the 1950s and 1960s they had convinced themselves that slumps were no longer possible because they could apply the prescriptions of John Maynard Keynes. Business cycles were a thing of the past, the author of the world’s best-selling economic textbook, Nobel prizewinner Paul Samuelson, had assured them in 1970. But when they tried to apply Keynesian remedies to the recession they did not work. The only effect was to increase inflation while leaving unemployment untouched. By 1976 they had abandoned such methods amid panic about the danger of escalating inflation. Economists and political journalists switched overnight to a belief in the completely ‘free’ market, unconstrained by state intervention—a theory previously preached only by a few isolated prophets such as Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman. Such a mass conversion of intellectuals had not been seen since the days when theologians changed their ‘beliefs’ on the say-so of princes.

The popularity of the prophets of the free market could not, however, restore unemployment levels to those of the long boom. Nor could it prevent another recession at the beginning of the 1980s, doubling unemployment again and affecting even wider areas of the world than that of 1974-76.

One popular explanation for the crises of 1974-76 and 1980-82 blamed the sudden increases in the price of oil after the Arab-Israeli war of October 1973 and the outbreak of the Iran-Iraq war of 1980. But a fresh crisis broke at the beginning of the 1990s, at a time of falling oil prices. Another explanation claimed that the crisis of 1974-76 resulted from the impact of rising wages on profits. But this could not explain the later crises, since wages in the world’s single most important economy, the US, fell steadily after the mid-1970s.297

Something more fundamental in the system had changed, turning the ‘golden age’ into a ‘leaden age’. The US had been able to afford massive arms spending at the time of the Korean War, absorbing perhaps 20 percent of its total output and equal to half the surplus available for investment. This had provided markets for its own industries and for exports from states such as Japan, which spent very little on arms. But by the time of the Vietnam War competition from such countries meant the US could not afford its old level of military output. It still produced massive quantities of weaponry, but the proportion of output this absorbed was probably about a third of that at the time of the Korean War. This was simply not enough to ward off recurrent and deepening world recessions, even if they were not yet on the scale of the 1930s slump.298

This did not bring all economic growth to an end in the advanced countries. But growth was much slower and more uneven than previously, and the cycle of boom and slump had returned with a vengeance. Average output per head in the 1980s grew at less than half the rate of the early 1960s. Unemployment reached levels virtually unimaginable in the long boom, commonly staying above 10 percent for years at a time, and rising close to 20 percent in places such as Ireland and Spain. Lower rates in the US in the late 1980s and late 1990s were driven by welfare cuts which forced people to take jobs at poverty wages—the poorest 10 percent earning 25 percent less than the equivalent group in Britain.299

Generalised job insecurity became a feature everywhere.



Harman, _People's History of the World_, pp. 586-588
#15211549
@ckaihatsu,


[chaihatsu wrote:]
A hard rain

The long boom came to an abrupt end in the autumn of 1973, as Western economies went into recession simultaneously for the first time since the 1930s and unemployment doubled. This was enough to produce panic in government and business circles everywhere. Mainstream economists had never been able to explain how the slump of the 1930s had happened, and none of them could be sure they were not facing a similar situation.

In the 1950s and 1960s they had convinced themselves that slumps were no longer possible because they could apply the prescriptions of John Maynard Keynes. Business cycles were a thing of the past, the author of the world’s best-selling economic textbook, Nobel prizewinner Paul Samuelson, had assured them in 1970. But when they tried to apply Keynesian remedies to the recession they did not work. The only effect was to increase inflation while leaving unemployment untouched. By 1976 they had abandoned such methods amid panic about the danger of escalating inflation. Economists and political journalists switched overnight to a belief in the completely ‘free’ market, unconstrained by state intervention—a theory previously preached only by a few isolated prophets such as Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman. Such a mass conversion of intellectuals had not been seen since the days when theologians changed their ‘beliefs’ on the say-so of princes.

The popularity of the prophets of the free market could not, however, restore unemployment levels to those of the long boom. Nor could it prevent another recession at the beginning of the 1980s, doubling unemployment again and affecting even wider areas of the world than that of 1974-76.

One popular explanation for the crises of 1974-76 and 1980-82 blamed the sudden increases in the price of oil after the Arab-Israeli war of October 1973 and the outbreak of the Iran-Iraq war of 1980. But a fresh crisis broke at the beginning of the 1990s, at a time of falling oil prices. Another explanation claimed that the crisis of 1974-76 resulted from the impact of rising wages on profits. But this could not explain the later crises, since wages in the world’s single most important economy, the US, fell steadily after the mid-1970s.297

Something more fundamental in the system had changed, turning the ‘golden age’ into a ‘leaden age’. The US had been able to afford massive arms spending at the time of the Korean War, absorbing perhaps 20 percent of its total output and equal to half the surplus available for investment. This had provided markets for its own industries and for exports from states such as Japan, which spent very little on arms. But by the time of the Vietnam War competition from such countries meant the US could not afford its old level of military output. It still produced massive quantities of weaponry, but the proportion of output this absorbed was probably about a third of that at the time of the Korean War. This was simply not enough to ward off recurrent and deepening world recessions, even if they were not yet on the scale of the 1930s slump.298

This did not bring all economic growth to an end in the advanced countries. But growth was much slower and more uneven than previously, and the cycle of boom and slump had returned with a vengeance. Average output per head in the 1980s grew at less than half the rate of the early 1960s. Unemployment reached levels virtually unimaginable in the long boom, commonly staying above 10 percent for years at a time, and rising close to 20 percent in places such as Ireland and Spain. Lower rates in the US in the late 1980s and late 1990s were driven by welfare cuts which forced people to take jobs at poverty wages—the poorest 10 percent earning 25 percent less than the equivalent group in Britain.299

Generalised job insecurity became a feature everywhere.


I highlighted the part I'm referring to.
Prof. Bill Mitchell, a founder of MMT, has said, and I have posted about this here before, that =>

In the 70s, after the oil price was raised by OPEC there was inflation. The Fed. increased interest rates to fight it. All it did was to increase the inflation. Why? Bill says it is because most business own money or need to borrow and so they see increased interest rates as a higher cost, and so must raise prices because their costs increased. At least try to raise prices.

The lesson has not been learned. The Fed. again thinks that raising interest rates will do something different than just add to the inflation.

I'm not an expert, but IMHO, raising rates a little will add to price increases now because =>

If demand is 100 units/day, and supply is 70 units per day, then doing X which cuts demand from 100 to 90 while increasing costs by 5%; will just increase the price. This s because the supply stil falls 20/units/day short of the demand.
To stop inflation the thing = X most be large enough to cut demand to 70 or less to stop the price increases.

IMHO, what the Fed. is proposing is much more like cutting demand to 90, not to 70 units/day. So, it will add to the profits of the banks and increase the price level, not lower it.

Please Note: MMTers say that properly defined "inflation" refers to a *continuing* general increase in prices. So, as long as covid is causing bottlenecks in supply-chains, the higher prices are not really inflation. [Now, I'm not expert enough to know how 'inflation' is really *technically* defined. And, MS Econ has some strange technical definitions. I'm just repeating what MMTers say.]

______._____________________________________________________________________

In reply to the whole quote.
I note the all current mainstream econ. theories are built on the quicksand of false assumptions.
It is not any surprise that its predictions and policy recommendations have been wrong close to 100% of the time.
Again, IMHO, all MS econ. theories were created not to find the truth, but rather to justify policies that made their patrons more money at the expense of the nation's health, security, stability, prospects, and ability to react to covid. Also, mainly at the expense of the well being of the working class.
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