[Vassili Zaitsev]

What do you all think of it? Is it a sign that the U$ is on the verge of collapse? or something else?

[teh wez]

Its failing?

[Proctor]

I honestly don't care. If I was a good socialist I would be celebrating, if I was a businessman I would be getting richer, and if I was the average man I would think it is terrible. But it makes no difference to me whatsoever.

The reason why? An economy is not a tangible thing. So what if it increases/decreases? What does this mean? I have had enough of the pathetic people (in New Zealand, I don't know if it is the same elsewhere) who say "oooh, but it'll be good for the economy". Fuck 'em. What difference does it make whether the economy sucks or not? As long as there is a decent standard of living, the economy is of no consequence to anyone. Millionaires are not included in anyone.

[FadeTheButcher]

Its a systematic breakdown. I would not begin however to party and celebrate the death of the "free market." The American government has intervened in the American economy for decades.

[CasX]

As long as there is a decent standard of living, the economy is of no consequence to anyone.

Are you suggesting the two are seperate?

[Proctor]

Seperate, but linked. A good economy (if one actually exists) does not equate to high living standards.

[SF note: Why? ]

[Gabriel Parks]

Though people throughout time have thought that they are living in a special moment in the history of human progress, I too belief that we are currently living in one of these phases. The system of capitalism has been based around exploitation, extraction, and expansion in order that capital may accumulate and reproduce itself. Though this system has been relatively successful in keeping itself alive, I do believe that we are reaching its final frontiers. The changes that have occured in the global political economy over the past thirty years have been absolutely devastating for the capital and its leading proponent, the US. In 1971/72 the Bretton Woods system collapsed, giving birth to speculation capitalism which is characterized by the trading of currencies and debt that has ensued since. The OPEC oil crisis followed shortly on the tails, causing the economy to fall into a downwards spiral that is evident in the negative growth rates that proceeded and a recession (or dare I say Depression) that it still has been unable to overcome. Combine this with the crisis in the World Banking system which got kicked of in 1982/83 with the Latin American Debt Crisis and has continued on through today. Currently Argentina is now telling the World Bank that they had better start listening to Argentineans otherwise they will not be recieving any money (not that this is really an effective instrument of power but it may prove to foment a new tide of resistance). US capital combined with the rest of transnational capital is in a serious rut, they continue to create wars in order to stimulate the economy, meanwhile their new ideological and economic deployment of neo-liberalism is causing the gap between the ultra-rich and the masses of poverty ridden people continue to grow at alarming rates. All this may seem just nonsense or things we have all heard before but I truly believe that we are moving into a period where the material conditions that have been forced upon our brothers and sisters throughout the world is everyday moving towards the breaking point. Combine this with the largest mass movements against war, and the 'anti-globalization' movement, and the social forums that are being held throughout the 'Underdeveloped' world, and we are beginning to see the possibilities for a true resistance. The 'free-market' can only expand so much, and when it is not providing enough people with the ability to buy its products, we will once again find ourselves in a time of a crisis of over-production and even more poverty. As capital has to move further in the direction of coercion and losses its support within the 'developed' world, we may possibly see the end of one system and the birth of another.

[Demosthenes]

Uh... the US econmy is not in a recession...it just growing at a slow rate... I wont pretend to have an answer to Mr. Parks theory of the imminent demise of all Capitalistic markets but I will say this: Dont hold your breath. In fact I'm not even going to bother quoting you, All I can say is...whew.....

[Proctor]

Actually Demosthenes, a recession is when economic growth slows, and a depression is when it goes backwards. So if the economy is 'just growing at a slow rate', then it would be justified to call it a recession.

[Siberian Fox]

a recession is when economic growth slows, and a depression is when it goes backwards

I am sorry to say Proctor that you are technically incorrect. The technical definition of a recession is to have two consecutive quarters of negative growth i.e. the economy shrinks continuously for half a year. I am not aware of any "technical" definition of depression, but I would assume it to be an extended recession over several years, such as the global recession of the early 1990s, which was the largest recession since the "Great Depression" of the inter-war years. A slowdown in growth is just that, a slow down in growth.

[Demosthenes]

Yes, that was point Siberian, thank you for the clarification.

[S.F. note: if it wasn't for the fact that you were responding to my own post I would probably have deleted that (flagrant abuse of admin privilages alert ) Remember, no one line posts in this forum please. But, your welcome ]

[Gothmog]

Uh... the US econmy is not in a recession...it just growing at a slow rate... I wont pretend to have an answer to Mr. Parks theory of the imminent demise of all Capitalistic markets but I will say this: Dont hold your breath. In fact I'm not even going to bother quoting you, All I can say is...whew.....

-You´re right, but I would add that the USA economy is growing at slow rate, despite massive keynesian stimulus, in the shape of dramatic interest rates cuts, increasing public spending and tax cuts. In this situation, mediocre growth rates are quite worrying....because the state is running out of tools to speed up the economy. I woudn´t say this is the collapse of capitalism, but seems to be a somewhat serious systemic crisis, since the three main engines of world economy (US, EU and Japan) are suffering from economic stagnation. In the case of USA, there is also the trouble of massive trade deficit, which is not sustainable in the long run. However, I won´t risk any prediction here

[Alhazen Al-Rashid]

I second the question of "its failing'?"

I had no idea.. dont listen to every warning bell you hear in the media. THe economy is doing just fine. Im making more money than ever, and buying all kinds of new music and computer games and such. Never had it better.

[Mattcore]

Lyric from "We must destroy x10" by Kompressor completely describes the economic downfall of the U$A

girl is naked, take a movie
girl is looking, picture cutie
you buy thing from pop up banner
you get wallet, purchase camera

[Chorus]

window pop up on the screen
taking control of my machine
making all internet user insane
x10 profit goes down the drain

girl is naked, take a movie
girl is looking, picture cutie
you buy thing from pop up banner
you get wallet, purchase camera

[Chorus]

the economy failing is x10 fault
popping up window is computer assault
window popup again and again
only solution is crush x10

[Chorus 2x]

[Gothmog]

I second the question of "its failing'?"

-THe economy is doing just fine. Im making more money than ever, and buying all kinds of new music and computer games and such. Never had it better.

-Me too...but it´s hardly an evidence that the Brazilian economy is going well. Instead we should look to statistics like new requests for unemployment benefits or industrial output.....

[Jaste]

I agree with Gabriel Parks, it is Capitalism that has brought the economy down in these past years. What really drives the economy is corporate spending. Companies buying off other companies is what the economy is driven by. After the tradgedy of 9/11, the economy was hurt badly. this led to less corporate spending, which led to many layoffs in the air travel buisness. If corporations were not spending as much then they were not flying as much, bringing down the airlines. That is why what our presisdent needs to do is give corporations incentives (such as tax breaks) to buy more things from other corporations to get the economy back to the way it was earlier.