[dilpill]

Code: Select allI wouldn’t agree to total security of employment for teachers, however unionisation does not imply that. Teachers proven incompetent will be fired, the union is there to prevent unjustified lay offs.

Are leftists really this disconnected from reality? Unions defend any moron who pays his dues, no matter how incompetent.

In the US at least, the problem of incompetent teachers is not caused by the unions. In both states that are fully unionized (California and Florida) and states that have no teachers unions (South Carolina), the rate of firing of tenured teachers tends to be less than 1%.

As to the problem in the OP, let's go with Thunderhawk's idea.

[Thunderhawk]

I wouldn’t agree to total security of employment for teachers, however unionisation does not imply that. Teachers proven incompetent will be fired, the union is there to prevent unjustified lay offs.

In much of the West at least, Teacher's unions now act for the betterment and empowerment of the union and then the benefits of the teacher. The well being of the children and the educational system is usually only paid lip service.

Unacceptable. There will be no segregation, the aim of state schooling is not to cultivate wunderkinds, in fact the two are incompatible.

Which will ultimately create problems for the average student as the extremes act out.

Are leftists really this disconnected from reality? Unions defend any moron who pays his dues, no matter how incompetent.

Only a small percentage of the Leftwing are that disconnected, and only a small percentage of the rightwing are that ignorant.

[Vladimir]

House

Arbitrators don't give a shit. An arbitrator's job is to hear both sides of the argument and make the fairest decision, which then both parties are bound by law to follow. If either party is not content all they can do is appeal the decision.

Ok, 1) how is the arbitrator to be selected? 2) how is his decision to be enforced? Our IA bill provides the monopoly of decision on courts.

If they do so illegally they will face criminal penalties. This goes without saying.

That is useless. If the teachers start a general strike, which they are bound to sooner or later if they have no bargaining power, with wide support (most people will be uncomfortable if the state forces teachers into low income brackets), criminal penalties will be useless.

Dan

How the hells is it undemocratic? What's more democratic then an individual personally voting on what to teach their kid by doing it themselves?

You just want to crank out state indoctrination, which is kinda a piss-poor philosophy for a supposed commie.

Children are property of the nation, not a few individuals, and are to be educated in accordance to what the nations needs them to become. Allowing the tyranny of a few individuals over a child is not democratic.

As for the rest, I already proposed what is acceptable:
- evidence of incompetence must be provided by the watchdog committee (union delegates included)
- if proven incompetent, to be put on probation:
-Teachers with 2 years of tenure will be given one month probation.
-Teachers with 5 years of tenure will be given two months probation.
-Teachers with 10 years of tenure will be given 6 months probation
-Teachers with over 15 years of tenure will be given a years probation
- if failed probation, to be terminated

I have to problem firing incompetent teachers.

Are leftists really this disconnected from reality? Unions defend any moron who pays his dues, no matter how incompetent.

I am aware, and that is their purpose. That's why they will have to ensure, togther with other interst groups, that any lay-off is justified.

That's exactly the point of education. To get the best as well taught as possible so they can drive the nation's research, policy, and industry, and to get the others taught enough so that they can be productive citizens.

No, that is the point of higher education.
The point of intermediate education is to provide future workers with general and basic skills for existence in modern society, as well as give them equal chances of accessing higher education, not increase the chances for a few and the expense of the rest. Segregation will stunt development, as it will prohibit intellectual stimulation for the majority by keeping them in a self-sustaining, self-fulfilling mediocrity.

Thunderhawk

In much of the West at least, Teacher's unions now act for the betterment and empowerment of the union and then the benefits of the teacher. The well being of the children and the educational system is usually only paid lip service.

That is fair enough, although I suspect not entirely accurate.

[Thunderhawk]

Children are property of the nation,

WHAT!?

[Vladimir]

stfu

[MistyTiger]

Children are property of the nation

That just sounds wrong. Now if the children were soldiers, then perhaps that would be true.

[Vladimir]

I know I used shite wording, but it isn't hard to deduce what was meant

[Le Rouge]

Children are the products of society.

[Vladimir]

You see, I fell for House's trick of using the word nation to refer to society. That's the last time I do that, for sure

[MistyTiger]

Unacceptable. There will be no segregation, the aim of state schooling is not to cultivate wunderkinds, in fact the two are incompatible.

I disagree. I think streaming should be included. I think it could be beneficial. Some kids just have a harder time learning than others, but with streaming...they have a better chance of catching up with the others. People learn at different speeds.

I agree with what LeRouge said.

I'm currently working on the bill and I hope to have it finished sometime next week.

[Vladimir]

Actually no, with streaming they are simply left behind, because mediocrity would become self-sustaining; a weaker curriculum would stunt development. A curriculum has to be based on an average student, with the lower strata working harder to catch up and the higher strata working less and having more time for personal development, something essential for wunderkinds.

[Vladimir]

Actually no, with streaming they are simply left behind, because mediocrity would become self-sustaining; a weaker curriculum would stunt development. A curriculum has to be based on an average student, with the lower strata working harder to catch up and the higher strata working less and having more time for personal development, something essential for wunderkinds.

[Eauz]

And workers gaining benefits from union membership is bad how?

What would the purpose of a full society unionised be? It makes no sense. Who would you be fighting a conflict with over wages if it is set that all members are unionised? In addition, even if you unionised all employees, who determines which unionised employees get what wage. Eliminate the whole economic system first, unionising is a terrible idea.

Not that it matters, since I'm going to be executed...

[MistyTiger]

a weaker curriculum would stunt development.

Unless the weaker curriculum could gradually increase in intensity and difficulty. With anything, you start simple and slow and then you build up endurance, difficulty, and speed.

Wunderkind?

[Vladimir]

Unless the weaker curriculum could gradually increase in intensity and difficulty. With anything, you start simple and slow and then you build up endurance, difficulty, and speed.

Too much complication. The ones that actually do need to catch up are relatively few and can just take extra sessions

Wunderkind?

German/Russian for virtuous child... thought you had the word too..

[Dr House]

Actually no, with streaming they are simply left behind, because mediocrity would become self-sustaining; a weaker curriculum would stunt development. A curriculum has to be based on an average student, with the lower strata working harder to catch up and the higher strata working less and having more time for personal development, something essential for wunderkinds.

This is nonsense, unless the higher tracks are allowed a self-paced curriculum, or you just make the entire curriculum self-paced (which would itself be a form of self-tracking). Otherwise the gifted kids would just get bored, and the disadvantaged kids will not understand the class.

What you don't seem to understand is that intelligence does not refer to a person's education level, but to their ability to learn. You can't expect a dumb kid to learn at the same pace as an average kid and you'll just confuse him by trying.

[MistyTiger]

Too much complication. The ones that actually do need to catch up are relatively few and can just take extra sessions

I disagree. I think tutoring would be good for this...volunteer tutoring. Or maybe if people have good grades and are eligible, they can tutor and get some credit for it. Relatively few? Maybe even more have a learning disability but are just too ashamed to admit it or they don't even realize it. I think there should be screening for this.

[Thunderhawk]

German/Russian for virtuous child... thought you had the word too..

The kids are often called "Giftie" (for "gifted") in Canada and the USA.

A curriculum has to be based on an average student, with the lower strata working harder to catch up and the higher strata working less and having more time for personal development, something essential for wunderkinds.

The higher strata rarely get time for personal development - they are asked to help others or be quiet. Rarely are any programs set up for them to advance themselves, and even if there is, then the teachers have to go out of their to get them and make sure the "giftie" isnt doing anything wrong.

[Vladimir]

Dr House

This is nonsense, unless the higher tracks are allowed a self-paced curriculum, or you just make the entire curriculum self-paced (which would itself be a form of self-tracking). Otherwise the gifted kids would just get bored, and the disadvantaged kids will not understand the class.

What you don't seem to understand is that intelligence does not refer to a person's education level, but to their ability to learn. You can't expect a dumb kid to learn at the same pace as an average kid and you'll just confuse him by trying.

There is no evidence that there are any kids with significant differences of learning ability to others. Those slightly slower on the uptake can easily catch up by extra classes. As for gifted kids, school work is a mere norm for them and they tend to have time and energy for personal development in extra-curricular activities.

MistyTiger

I disagree. I think tutoring would be good for this...volunteer tutoring. Or maybe if people have good grades and are eligible, they can tutor and get some credit for it. Relatively few? Maybe even more have a learning disability but are just too ashamed to admit it or they don't even realize it. I think there should be screening for this.

You are overestimating ability differences by far.

Thunderhawk

The higher strata rarely get time for personal development - they are asked to help others or be quiet. Rarely are any programs set up for them to advance themselves, and even if there is, then the teachers have to go out of their to get them and make sure the "giftie" isnt doing anything wrong.

Then we must work to set up such programs. In Russia there excellent programs, such as the school Olympiads where the best pupils contest in the more advanced fields of various subjects and after-school clubs for further exploration of subjects.
But what I mostly meant was extra-curricular activity; the cleverest kids tend to get most of their superiority outside of the school curriculum.

[MistyTiger]

You are overestimating ability differences by far.

How so? Have you any experience with special needs people? I know someone who is retarded and the special programs were good for her and she benefited.