[Abood]

Anarchism and capitalism cannot co-exist in any way, shape or form. They can exist together in one country, but only because not all workers would've gained class consciousness. But it'd be wrong to call it co-existence. The most likely outcome is a civil war.

[RustyDialectic]

If you want to invade people, you're not an anarchist. I'm sorry. I know people like the term because it makes them look punk and all, but it's just not there. If removing markets solved the problems of capitalism, the USSR would have been a paradise. If free(ish) markets solved the problems, the USA would be a paradise. Neither are. Economics aren't to blame - people are.

[Abood]

Where did I talk about me wanting to invade people?

Any capitalist/hierarchical society is going to want to invade your nice little commune. There's no coexistence.

Don't get all personal and "you're not an anarchist" with me.

[HoniSoit]

you're not an anarchist

Every anarchist thinks s/he is the only TRUE anarchist.

[Abood]

That's what you like to think to comfort yourself.

[FallenRaptor]

If you want to invade people, you're not an anarchist. I'm sorry. I know people like the term because it makes them look punk and all, but it's just not there.

I don't think anyone is suggesting they want to. And Tally-oh isn't an anarchist anyway.

If removing markets solved the problems of capitalism, the USSR would have been a paradise.

Simply replacing capitalism is only half the problem. The other half is what to replace it with.

Economics aren't to blame - people are.

People tend to be motivated by their economic situation. That's mainly why anarcho-communism and anarcho-capitalism can't co-exist peacefully.

[RustyDialectic]

They can only not coexist peacefully if they are invading each other and forcing their system on each other. How hard is that to understand? If you think it's your business to invade the world and put your system on them, join George W. Bush and start posting in the Platonism & Dictatorship forum. I don't give a damn. There's absolutely no room in an anarchist society for people to go around telling each other what to do like that. But hey, keep up the infighting instead of fighting the real fight. That's what they want you to do.

[Abood]

Infighting? I don't consider any sort of capitalist a comrade of mine, whatever adjective s/he puts before it, neither should any Libertarian Socialist. Capitalists are bound to invade classless, socialist communes, no matter what deal they make with them; no matter what agreements they come to. There has never been an instance in history where socialists and capitalists coexisted peacefully. If you fail to recognize that, then you fail to see the class struggle and I have no idea why you'd call yourself anything remotely close to a socialist.

[Dr House]

Capitalists are bound to invade classless, socialist communes

Libertarians are pacifists, or at the very least non-interventionists. That's why we insist that you are welcome to create a commune within a libertarian society provided you abide by our limited rules (don't steal, kill, or embezzle other people).

Neo-liberals and neocons aren't, but those aren't the only capitalists out there.

-Dr House

[FallenRaptor]

No offense, but ideology in general means little. If you want proof of this, look at the mass hypocrisy of western civilization.

Let's say a CEO of an oil company in AnCap-town wants to expand the company. He finds out that there's a shitload of oil underneath Anarcho-communistville, but the anarcho-commies want to preserve their way of life and not associate with the ancaps. So the CEO decides to call in some blackwater mercs to attack Anarcho-commieville, and wins the battle. Not only does the oil company now have access to new oil fields, but also has access to the cheap labor of the defeated commies who have just lost everything. The profits of the company thus skyrockets. You may say that this happened because the CEO was a horrible & greedy person, which may or may not be true, but you have to remember that his motives were not rooted in the fact that he is a horrible person, but that he wanted to increase profits.

Likewise, the anarcho-communists may see this happening from a mile away, and may also have a few expansionist interests of their own, since as I said before, it's very difficult for communes to live in isolation. However, I would still expect the AnCaps to attack first due to profit motive and the fact that capitalists can directly hire their own personal armies rather than bribing off politicians as they do in regular capitalism(in fact I think that anarcho-capitalism will lead to violence & chaos because of this).

That is why, in a nutshell, anarcho-capitalism and social anarchism cannot co-exist peacefully.

[Dr House]

You sir just beautifully illustrated the reason I vehemently oppose anarcho-capitalism.

-Dr House

[RustyDialectic]

That is why, in a nutshell, anarcho-capitalism and social anarchism cannot co-exist peacefully.

Thank you for articulating the Neoconservative ideology. "We must spread our way of living around the world and force it upon everyone." Brilliantly executed.

[Abood]

No offense, but ideology in general means little. If you want proof of this, look at the mass hypocrisy of western civilization.

I agree with this. People can claim all they want that this sort of capitalist or that isn't going to be expansionist, but the fact is, societies are stagnant on one ideology. Look at the US, for example. It started off as quite the ideal Libertarian society, but where is it now? A neoconservative, corporate haven that can even be called neo-fascist. People, like RustyDialectic, who argue that it's neoconservative policies that are expansionist don't see the wider scheme of things. Neoconservatism didn't come out of nowhere. It emerged from the mindset of the capitalist class and was executed when said class had enough power and control to do so.

[pikachu]

Jesus Christ, this thread was dead for like half a year. Which bastard is responsible for resurrecting it?

It started off as quite the ideal Libertarian society, but where is it now?

It started of liberal, it is still liberal. Ideology has evolved, but the brand remains.

Oh, also, both AnCappies and AnCommies failed, fail, and will always fail in everything but theory. Which is why I don't get why the fuck they would bother to discuss whether there would be any conflict between the two in the fantasy world in which they both manage to exist at all.

Why don't you, for a change, discuss how to actually make your systems work? Start of from where you are now. Let's say you want to create an Anarcho-Commie society. What do you do?

[Abood]

Why don't you, for a change, discuss how to actually make your systems work?

I'm pretty sure that was discussed at some point... but it isn't the topic of this thread.

Oh, and I'm not an anarcho-communist.

[pikachu]

I'm pretty sure that was discussed at some point...

Was some reasonable solution offered as a result? If so, why don't I see any anarchist communes around me? Was it the kind of "solution" that involved waiting endlessly for something to happen?
If nothing reasonable was offered, then how do you go on discussing something which would be possible in an alternative world? It makes about as much sense as arguing who would win a fight - Goku or Pikachu, in a world where both characters existed and division by zero was possible.

Oh, and I'm not an anarcho-communist.

The question wasn't addressed to you specifically, but to all those who think that the current discussion makes any sense.

[FallenRaptor]

Thank you for articulating the Neoconservative ideology. "We must spread our way of living around the world and force it upon everyone." Brilliantly executed.

What I articulated was not neo-conservatism, but imperialism, which is not exclusive to ideology. Neo-conservatism is just an ideology that attempts to justify acts of imperialism. It is a result of capitalism in the same way that authoritarianism and corruption are results of bureaucratic central planning.

[Abood]

If so, why don't I see any anarchist communes around me?

Whether a reasonable solution was reached (as if that ever happens... hah) or not, it doesn't matter. Members of PoFo are insignificant and can't do anything.

[pikachu]

Whether a reasonable solution was reached (as if that ever happens... hah) or not, it doesn't matter. Members of PoFo are insignificant and can't do anything.

The solution is supposed to include methods which would make you matter, or attract more members and make them matter. Do you understand?

[Abood]

No solution can ever be made on PoFo. Think UN... plus net inefficiencies.