Anarcho-Primitivism - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

The 'no government' movement.
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
By VALIS_
#13843974
So, while browsing some other forums I visit I randomly encountered Ted Kaczynski's "FC Manifesto" and the strange little ideology of anarcho-primitivism.

http://www.42inc.com/~estephen/manifesto/unabetoc.html

I find Kaczynski to be intriguing and definitely not insane, simply dedicated. I was relatively young when all the unabomber craziness was going on but I do recall it. I don't think Kaczynski himself was a leading theorist or developer of anarcho-primitivism but he seems to be very well acquainted with it. From what I can tell the ideology operates off of two principles: the power process and surrogate activities.

THE POWER PROCESS

33. Human beings have a need (probably based in biology) for something that we will call the "power process." This is closely related to the need for power (which is widely recognized) but is not quite the same thing. The power process has four elements. The three most clear-cut of these we call goal, effort and attainment of goal. (Everyone needs to have goals whose attainment requires effort, and needs to succeed in attaining at least some of his goals.) The fourth element is more difficult to define and may not be necessary for everyone. We call it autonomy and will discuss it later (paragraphs 42-44).

34. Consider the hypothetical case of a man who can have anything he wants just by wishing for it. Such a man has power, but he will develop serious psychological problems. At first he will have a lot of fun, but by and by he will become acutely bored and demoralized. Eventually he may become clinically depressed. History shows that leisured aristocracies tend to become decadent. This is not true of fighting aristocracies that have to struggle to maintain their power. But leisured, secure aristocracies that have no need to exert themselves usually become bored, hedonistic and demoralized, even though they have power. This shows that power is not enough. One must have goals toward which to exercise one's power.

35. Everyone has goals; if nothing else, to obtain the physical necessities of life: food, water and whatever clothing and shelter are made necessary by the climate. But the leisured aristocrat obtains these things without effort. Hence his boredom and demoralization.

36. Nonattainment of important goals results in death if the goals are physical necessities, and in frustration if nonattainment of the goals is compatible with survival. Consistent failure to attain goals throughout life results in defeatism, low self-esteem or depression.

37. Thus, in order to avoid serious psychological problems, a human being needs goals whose attainment requires effort, and he must have a reasonable rate of success in attaining his goals.

SURROGATE ACTIVITIES

38. But not every leisured aristocrat becomes bored and demoralized. For example, the emperor Hirohito, instead of sinking into decadent hedonism, devoted himself to marine biology, a field in which he became distinguished. When people do not have to exert themselves to satisfy their physical needs they often set up artificial goals for themselves. In many cases they then pursue these goals with the same energy and emotional involvement that they otherwise would have put into the search for physical necessities. Thus the aristocrats of the Roman Empire had their literary pretensions; many European aristocrats a few centuries ago invested tremendous time and energy in hunting, though they certainly didn't need the meat; other aristocracies have competed for status through elaborate displays of wealth; and a few aristocrats, like Hirohito, have turned to science.

39. We use the term "surrogate activity" to designate an activity that is directed toward an artificial goal that people set up for themselves merely in order to have some goal to work toward, or let us say, merely for the sake of the "fulfillment" that they get from pursuing the goal. Here is a rule of thumb for the identification of surrogate activities. Given a person who devotes much time and energy to the pursuit of goal X, ask yourself this: If he had to devote most of his time and energy to satisfying his biological needs, and if that effort required him to use his physical and mental facilities in a varied and interesting way, would he feel seriously deprived because he did not attain goal X? If the answer is no, then the person's pursuit of a goal X is a surrogate activity. Hirohito's studies in marine biology clearly constituted a surrogate activity, since it is pretty certain that if Hirohito had had to spend his time working at interesting non-scientific tasks in order to obtain the necessities of life, he would not have felt deprived because he didn't know all about the anatomy and life-cycles of marine animals. On the other hand the pursuit of sex and love (for example) is not a surrogate activity, because most people, even if their existence were otherwise satisfactory, would feel deprived if they passed their lives without ever having a relationship with a member of the opposite sex. (But pursuit of an excessive amount of sex, more than one really needs, can be a surrogate activity.)

40. In modern industrial society only minimal effort is necessary to satisfy one's physical needs. It is enough to go through a training program to acquire some petty technical skill, then come to work on time and exert very modest effort needed to hold a job. The only requirements are a moderate amount of intelligence, and most of all, simple OBEDIENCE. If one has those, society takes care of one from cradle to grave. (Yes, there is an underclass that cannot take physical necessities for granted, but we are speaking here of mainstream society.) Thus it is not surprising that modern society is full of surrogate activities. These include scientific work, athletic achievement, humanitarian work, artistic and literary creation, climbing the corporate ladder, acquisition of money and material goods far beyond the point at which they cease to give any additional physical satisfaction, and social activism when it addresses issues that are not important for the activist personally, as in the case of white activists who work for the rights of nonwhite minorities. These are not always pure surrogate activities, since for many people they may be motivated in part by needs other than the need to have some goal to pursue. Scientific work may be motivated in part by a drive for prestige, artistic creation by a need to express feelings, militant social activism by hostility. But for most people who pursue them, these activities are in large part surrogate activities. For example, the majority of scientists will probably agree that the "fulfillment" they get from their work is more important than the money and prestige they earn.

41. For many if not most people, surrogate activities are less satisfying than the pursuit of real goals (that is, goals that people would want to attain even if their need for the power process were already fulfilled). One indication of this is the fact that, in many or most cases, people who are deeply involved in surrogate activities are never satisfied, never at rest. Thus the money-maker constantly strives for more and more wealth. The scientist no sooner solves one problem than he moves on to the next. The long-distance runner drives himself to run always farther and faster. Many people who pursue surrogate activities will say that they get far more fulfillment from these activities than they do from the "mundane" business of satisfying their biological needs, but that it is because in our society the effort needed to satisfy the biological needs has been reduced to triviality. More importantly, in our society people do not satisfy their biological needs AUTONOMOUSLY but by functioning as parts of an immense social machine. In contrast, people generally have a great deal of autonomy in pursuing their surrogate activities.


Essentially, he regards a human beings struggle for survival in a non mechanical natural world as our only true state and that any endeavors we undertake after that as simple surrogate activities which mimic the power process, something we pursue when simple survival becomes easily attainable. However, I find flaws with this logic. First, if this our true and desirable state, why did early humans invest so much time and energy into developing tools and techniques to make primitive survival easier? If we only pursue surrogate activities because we become bored with our power to survive then why were we ever so desperate to escape it?

Second, what about art and other forms of creative output? Cave drawings for instance definitely occurred while humans were still engaged in an everyday struggle for survival. To me, it just seems apparent that human beings are hard wired to pursue these so called surrogate activities rather than it being an artificial pursuit of the power process.

What does everyone think of this? Are there any resident primitivists (though I suppose if you own a computer and regularly use the internet you aren't a very good one)? Does anyone actually desire a world that this ideology aims to create?

For what it's worth I did really enjoy his critique of the left, I am a fascist though.
User avatar
By Paradigm
#13844035
I've debated a few anarcho-primitivists, none of whom was willing to put their money where their mouth is. They tend to over-idealize hunter-gatherer societies as some sort of panacea where there was no war or violence, and everyone lived peacefully. There is, in fact, much to admire in the primitive communism of hunter-gatherers, but to go back to that exact state would require a massive die-off of the human population which would simply be unconscionable to advocate. The earth does have enough resources to support the current population using modern farming techniques, but it absolutely does not have enough resources for us all to revert back to the Paleolithic. So basically I consider anarcho-primitivists to be almost as big an embarrassment to anarchism as anarcho-capitalists.
#13844488
Kaczynksi was definitely not "insane"

He was just evil because he was willing to cause harm to practically random people because he thought it was for society's greater good.

He is no anarchist even if he thinks he is. Anarchists do NOT resort to terroristic violence. Those are mere revolutionaries who wish to replace one government with another sort, and who gave true anarchists a black name back in the 1880s-1920s.
User avatar
By Negotiator
#13852692
I am completely baffled how anyone can end up believing primitive human cultures would be without war.
User avatar
By Bubba
#13852701
Paradigm wrote:but to go back to that exact state would require a massive die-off of the human population which would simply be unconscionable to advocate. The earth does have enough resources to support the current population using modern farming techniques, but it absolutely does not have enough resources for us all to revert back to the Paleolithic.


This, and also, who's gonna stop that asteroid when everyone's a hunter gatherer.

If some people choose to be hunter gatherers (and give their children the choice to opt out again) then we should respect that, but I don't think it's something that should be forced on all of us.
User avatar
By Ombrageux
#13852716
Anarcho-Primitivism is fine until somebody gets a toothache.
User avatar
By Bubba
#13852722
Ombrageux wrote:Anarcho-Primitivism is fine until somebody gets a toothache.


Not getting diabetes, allergies, cardiovascular diseases, most forms of cancer and being shielded from epidemics (small groups) probably wipes out almost every health advantage of modern society. Only if you live healthy (which most of us don't) and have access to affordable (to you), advanced medical care will you have a slight advantage., but if you are a poor American you'd probably be better off as a hunter gatherer. But it should be a choice, not be forced upon you.
User avatar
By Goldberk
#13852723
would require a massive die-off of the human population which would simply be unconscionable to advocate.


While I would not advocate the level of die off that primativists would, desiring and pursuing a much lower population is not unconscionable.

He was just evil because he was willing to cause harm to practically random people because he thought it was for society's greater good.



But if he was right he would not be evil.

Anarchists do NOT resort to terroristic violence.


Why not?

Whilst a fatally flawed idea anarcho-primativism has a lot of interesting things to say, critiques of technological modes of relation, comodification, othering, critiques of family and masculinity and critiques of specism to name but a few.
User avatar
By Bubba
#13852730
Goldberk wrote:But if he was right he would not be evil.


Only if you believe the ends always justify the means...
#13852788
you are exactly the sort of person I had in mind when I wrote that. You blacken the name of anarchism with your ends-justify-the-means advocation of violence and terrorism. Thinking that you are justified in killing and maiming for your ideology is a nonsense position for ANARCHISM, which is entirely predicated on personal choice!

Furthermore, as long as folks like you keep being bombthrowing whackjobs and useful idiots to the statists (keep the peons supporting the state by making them frightened of "anarchists") we will never get rid of the State.
User avatar
By Goldberk
#13852796
Thinking that you are justified in killing and maiming for your ideology is a nonsense position for ANARCHISM


I don't have a problem with hurting or killing others if it provides wider benefits, only idiotic liberals have a problem with that position.

which is entirely predicated on personal choice!



That’s an anarcho-capatalist position, which is in fact extreme liberalism, anarchism is at its heart about collective responsibility.
User avatar
By Paradigm
#13852802
Goldberk wrote:That’s an anarcho-capatalist position, which is in fact extreme liberalism, anarchism is at its heart about collective responsibility.

I recently read Anarchism and Other Essays by Emma Goldman, and was quite struck at how individualism and collectivism were seamlessly weaved together in her thought. Yes, collective responsibility is an important element, but equally so is the autonomy of the individual and voluntary association.
User avatar
By Goldberk
#13852823
I recently read Anarchism and Other Essays by Emma Goldman, and was quite struck at how individualism and collectivism were seamlessly weaved together in her thought. Yes, collective responsibility is an important element, but equally so is the autonomy of the individual and voluntary association.


Yes, but only through a recognition that interdependence is a key part of the human conditon, individuals would inevitably voluntarily associate with others becuase they recognise the inadequacies of individualism but would do so on the basis of mutual aid not the coercive exploitation of the state.
#13852853
Paradigm wrote:Yes, but I would also add that anarchism insists that people voluntarily associate as equals, rather than in hierarchical relationships.


Anarchism doesn't "insist" on any qualifications regarding voluntary association, because then it wouldn't be voluntary.

Demo edit: Rule 2. Calm down Secret.

Christ on the fuckin cross, man. Some things should not have to be spelled out
User avatar
By Paradigm
#13852864
In any case, let me spell out what anarchism is, since you apparently are unaware of its foundations. "Anarchy" does not mean "against the state." It means "against authority." Anarchy opposes any system of domination, whether or not it involves any overt force, because that unequal relationship compromises the very meaning of "voluntary." This is why, in addition to opposing the state, anarchism is opposed to wage labor, patriarchy, racism, and other forms of social subjugation.

Anarchy, in other words, is against this:
Image

And instead advocates this:
Image
#13852888
No, what anarchism is against is INVOLUNTARY hierarchy. If someone wants to defer to another person in certain matter he has every right to make that choice.

CHRIST ON THE MOTHERFUCKING FLAMING BLOODY CROSS

Demo edit: Third instance of name calling will have to result in a warning Secret. It's not that big a deal, just a discussion.
#13852969
I haven't posted here often.

VALIS_ wrote:Essentially, he regards a human beings struggle for survival in a non mechanical natural world as our only true state and that any endeavors we undertake after that as simple surrogate activities which mimic the power process, something we pursue when simple survival becomes easily attainable.


I have a difficult time disagreeing with this, though I am not a primitivist in the strictest sense.

First, if this our true and desirable state, why did early humans invest so much time and energy into developing tools and techniques to make primitive survival easier?


And this would be why. At some point there is a point of diminishing returns. A point where modern pursuit of medicine, science, and warfare has helped even a primitivist society. Then comes the arbitrary line we draw to determine where that line falls.

I am a fascist though.


How disappointing.

Paradigm wrote:They tend to over-idealize hunter-gatherer societies as some sort of panacea where there was no war or violence, and everyone lived peacefully


Yeah, that just isn't true. However, one could argue that the violence associated with tribal societies was a more *pure* form of violence, if you will. It was not abstract button mashing that killed entire villages from 1000s of miles of away. It was in your face, and for a point: To take your food or to steal your women.

Perhaps there is no difference in either behavior, and the pointing out of the fact is moot, perhaps not. It, again, depends on where you arbitrarily draw your line.

SecretSquirrel wrote:Kaczynksi was definitely not "insane"


Agreed. No more than that Breviak (sp?) dude.

SecretSquirrel wrote:He is no anarchist even if he thinks he is.


I always find it a little disingenuous to tell somewhat what they think they are. Shouldn't we just let them define themselves and define our arguments against them thusly? Isn't stripping someone of their own self-identification, a form of violence in and of itself?

Bubba wrote:This, and also, who's gonna stop that asteroid when everyone's a hunter gatherer.


Why do we need too? The earth has taken many asteroid hits and survived. Perhaps if we are only half way through several billion years of evolution here, perhaps humans aren't the alpha-omega? I'm not saying we shouldn't try, I'm not saying we shouldn't stop an asteroid, I'm only saying that asking that question has many possible answers I don't think you intended.

Bubba wrote:If some people choose to be hunter gatherers (and give their children the choice to opt out again) then we should respect that, but I don't think it's something that should be forced on all of us.


I agree with you, that would go against the very essence of Anarchy, however... what if the capitalists make it so that there is no real way for a hunter-gatherer society to even form?

Now we come full circle to Teddy again.

Ombrageux wrote:Anarcho-Primitivism is fine until somebody gets a toothache.


This is true as well, and again goes back to the arbitrary line. Some medicine is clearly good. Then again, maybe they just need toothbrushes...

Bubba wrote:Not getting diabetes, allergies, cardiovascular diseases, most forms of cancer and being shielded from epidemics (small groups) probably wipes out almost every health advantage of modern society. Only if you live healthy (which most of us don't) and have access to affordable (to you), advanced medical care will you have a slight advantage., but if you are a poor American you'd probably be better off as a hunter gatherer. But it should be a choice, not be forced upon you


Totally true.

Goldberk wrote:While I would not advocate the level of die off that primativists would, desiring and pursuing a much lower population is not unconscionable.


Because I'm coming to the thread late, I won't quote everything you said, just note that I agree with all your positions in this thread, completely.

Bubba wrote:Only if you believe the ends always justify the means...


Why is that wrong? If I have weeds growing around my house, but generally respect plant life, I still have to pull the weeds to make my house functional and aesthetic. For aesthetics alone, it probably isn't right to pull them, but you do get that extra benefit when you pull them for functionality.

SecretSquirrel wrote:You blacken the name of anarchism with your ends-justify-the-means advocation of violence and terrorism.


This notion that Anarchists shouldn't be violent is more a function of liberal culture than the opposite. It's a funny thing about violence and the state. Howard Zinn has several excellent opinions on it, that I share, but don't articulate nearly as well as he does. The first point is that this... strange modern concept that violence is always bad totally and completely serves the state that monopolizes violence to get its own way. The second is that some, well channeled violence can achieve the desired effects many Anarchists seek and the idea that there is anything wrong with that is the liberal states propaganda used against us to support itself. Third then is simply that as long as this violence truly remains a means and not an end of itself, it should be viewed as a tool to achieve goals, like any other.

And Zinn is considered anything but a militant. :|

SecretSquirrel wrote:Furthermore, as long as folks like you keep being bombthrowing whackjobs and useful idiots to the statists (keep the peons supporting the state by making them frightened of "anarchists") we will never get rid of the State.


Its not the state, but tradition that people fear changing. The abstract idea of the state is simply what people have been doing for the last few thousand years. (Though that isn't even really completely true, the "State" is a western concept used most powerfully only in the last 4-500 years). People will fear anything at any time, and anything can be made palatable if it can applied to appeal to whatever traditions they already have, as opposed to appearing to create some completely new way of life.

Furthermore, confusing support of "bombthrowing whackjobs" with indirect support of the states is just the kind of liberal state logic that has poisoned Anarchist thought to begin with. There are certain people who will never go along with any change, even if it were to award them 1 million dollars. There are others who will listen with skeptisism, and half of them will change and the other half wont. Then there are those ripe for reason and freedom from their shackles. Overly concerning ourselves with the first group is a complete waste of time. Throw the bomb, make the point, shake the fist! :lol:

Goldberk wrote:I don't have a problem with hurting or killing others if it provides wider benefits, only idiotic liberals have a problem with that position.


I have to quote this one anyway, totally agree.

Paradigm wrote:collective responsibility is an important element, but equally so is the autonomy of the individual and voluntary association.


Beautifully related.

SecretSquirrel wrote:Anarchism doesn't "insist" on any qualifications regarding voluntary association, because then it wouldn't be voluntary.


You're taking his point too literally.

SecretSquirrel wrote:No, what anarchism is against is INVOLUNTARY hierarchy.


Unfortunately, according to the source material Paradigm is referring to, you are simply wrong. Anarchism represents a stance against all hierarchy. Whether or not some vestiges of it remain in private lives that are not governed by a non-existent state is immaterial essentially and your apparent outrage is a little bizarre.

If you care to make some other assertion, fine, but you have to know what you are asserting goes against the Anarchist cannon that has already been established.

@Tainari88 For the Maltese, Alla is our Cathol[…]

We don't need narratives, we have footage. Just li[…]

I think that the wariness of many scientists to p[…]

...The reality is that post ww2 'west' only exist[…]