[Pants-of-dog]

Prior to Zionist settler colonialism, Israeli Jews owned about 6% of Palestine. Now, the Israeli government has direct control of 78% of the land and the remaining 22% are under military occupation.

That is clear evidence of an increase in land and resources for the side that has overwhelming military and economic power.

[wat0n]

None of that was in Gaza, and the bulk of the land was owned by the government.

So one of the hostages, Amit Soussana, has publicly said she was raped and tortured by her captors.

I won't dive into the details of how she was abused, which is naturally the most important part of the article, but she provides first-hand testimony of, for example, Hamas using civilian dwellings for military purposes (like holding her):

Ms. Soussana described being detained in roughly half a dozen sites, including private homes, an office and a subterranean tunnel. Later in her detention, she said, a group of captors suspended her across the gap between two couches and beat her.

...

After the hood was removed, Ms. Soussana said, she found herself in a small structure built on the roof of what she would later realize was an upscale private home. She remembered that militants were busy taking more guns from a box. Then the gunmen hurried downstairs, and she was left alone, facing a wall, with a man who said he was the owner of the house and called himself Mahmoud, she recalled.

And also of Hamas operating in Nuseirat:

On the following day, she was hurried into a small white car, she said. The driver headed southwest toward what she would later be told was the central city of Nuseirat.

“Muhammad is sitting in the back seat next to me, and with the gun pointed at me,” she said.

The car stopped outside what looked like a United Nations school and Ms. Soussana was ushered into a busy street, she recalled.
She said she was handed over to a man who called himself Amir. He marched her up the stairs of a nearby apartment block and into another private home, she said.

@Pants-of-dog wanted evidence of both these things, here's further, first-hand evidence of them.

[Pants-of-dog]

The earlier justification for the bombing of the Busiest refugee camp by the IDF was that Hamas was headquartered there

The goalposts have now shifted to "operating there" out of a private home.

[wat0n]

Do note that those are not mutually exclusive, and rescuing hostages also justifies bombing adjacent buildings.

I wonder if @Pants-of-dog will now accuse her of lying. I would not be surprised coming from rape advocates.

[late]

Prior to Zionist settler colonialism, Israeli Jews owned about 6% of Palestine. Now, the Israeli government has direct control of 78% of the land and the remaining 22% are under military occupation.

That is clear evidence of an increase in land and resources for the side that has overwhelming military and economic power.

Ethnic cleansing.

This was always going to happen...

[JohnRawls]

In this context, it is one group paying the cost (the damage from the conflict and death,as you describe it) and another receiving the financial gain.

And spending on war is a good way to transfer large amounts of wealth from the public sector to the private sector. It is an economic stimulus.



Our two arguments are not mutually exclusive. Both seem to be correct. My argument also encompasses the fact that Israel has the overwhelming military and economic power, and that there is a history of Israeli acquisition of land and resources to the detriment of Palestinians.

Which 1 group? The rich? They just lost a fuckton of manpower and can't produce on top of the stock itself always dropping because of the conflict. This is dwarfed though by people not willing to really invest in bad risky zones which Israel essentially is.

[Pants-of-dog]

There is still no evidence that Hamas was in the Nuseirat camp at the time that the IDF bombed it.

Which 1 group? The rich?

In this context, the group reaping the benefits are Zionists, and the group paying the cost in terms of damage and death is the Palestinians.

They just lost a fuckton of manpower and can't produce on top of the stock itself always dropping because of the conflict. This is dwarfed though by people not willing to really invest in bad risky zones which Israel essentially is.

The IDF and Israeli government have acquired 72% of Palestine directly through this method of killing Palestinians and settling their land. And they militarily occupy the remaining 22%, where they are currently killing Palestinians.

Over the years, the financial gains from settler colonialism are obvious.

[wat0n]

I will note Amit Soussana was released on November 30th, and was (likely) moved there on late October.

I wonder what other parts of her testimony will @Pants-of-dog deny.

[Pants-of-dog]

This is a big stretch for justifying the bombing of civilians.

More importantly, it does not provide evidence of Hamas operating in the camp at the time of the bombing.

It is, at best, speculation.

[wat0n]

This is proof that Hamas operated in the Nuseirat camp by October 2023.

But of course a rape apologist will deny it.

[Pants-of-dog]

Being somewhere at one time does not, in any way, prove that there is an ongoing operation there.

As a dad, I often visit the museum. I do not operate there or can be said to be present on any consistent basis

[JohnRawls]

There is still no evidence that Hamas was in the Nuseirat camp at the time that the IDF bombed it.



In this context, the group reaping the benefits are Zionists, and the group paying the cost in terms of damage and death is the Palestinians.



The IDF and Israeli government have acquired 72% of Palestine directly through this method of killing Palestinians and settling their land. And they militarily occupy the remaining 22%, where they are currently killing Palestinians.

Over the years, the financial gains from settler colonialism are obvious.

Your reasoning for this was financial gain or profit or whatever. But you fail to find a group that benefits from this financially/profit wise and that group should have a very large size then to control the politics of the country. But you just can't find one that is why your argument is stupid.

[Pants-of-dog]

@JohnRawls

Again I have already shown that Zionists have gained an overwhelming amount of the land and resources of Palestine in the last century or so by killing Palestinians and settling their land.

They do not have to have control over the government, since they are the government and have been the government so long that the idea of killing Palestinians and settling their land is inherent in Israeli society by now.

[wat0n]

Being somewhere at one time does not, in any way, prove that there is an ongoing operation there.

As a dad, I often visit the museum. I do not operate there or can be said to be present on any consistent basis

The fact that there were other hostages there also debunks this. It means it was not a coincidence she was sent there.

You claimed Hamas did not operate there but now refuse to believe a female hostage claiming to have been told she was sent there.

There's also the fact she was kept in private homes (plural), another thing you've conspicuously ignored.

I wonder what other parts of her testimony will you refuse to believe.

[Pants-of-dog]

It is entirely possible that hostages were sent there, and that Hamas has.no ongoing operations there.

In other words, it is plausible that the hostages were there temporarily and that there were no militants at the time of the bombing.

It is also illogical to assume that the IDF would.bomb the area if they thought Hamas was holding hostages there.

The fact that the hostage mentioned being placed in private homes indicates that Hamas does not have a base there.

[wat0n]

You went from denying Hamas operates there at all from now admitting it operated in the Nuseirat refugee camp.

Now you have to explain why exactly would one believe it has ceased its operations there.

[late]

"Prior to the October 7 attacks on Israel, the Israeli government tightly controlled the flow of goods entering Gaza, having ramped up oversight since Hamas took over the territory in 2007 and created what many international law experts call a de facto occupation. Then, two days after the Hamas attacks, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant ordered a “complete siege” on Gaza, barring fuel, food, water, and electricity from entering the territory. (Siege warfare against an occupied territory is illegal under international law.)

“What happens after famine is really simple: People die in very large numbers,” Donnelly said. “The cause of deaths will start to shift. Whereas the majority of the 31,000 deaths so far have been from the conflict, what we will see is not just large numbers of people dying of hunger, but dying of preventable diseases, particularly children.”

esearchers at Johns Hopkins University project that by August, absent a ceasefire, the number of excess deaths in Gaza — including from disease outbreaks — could reach 67,000 and potentially exceed 85,000 if there’s an escalation in the conflict. And an escalation seems likely: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu claims he has no choice but to order an imminent ground invasion of Rafah, Gaza’s southernmost region.

“So many, many warnings have been made,” Elder said. “And history will judge very, very poorly those who had the decision-making power — and we must be very clear, children are suffering, children are dying, dehydrating to death, because of decisions made by those in power. Children’s pain is avoidable. Their loss is avoidable.”

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2024/3/25/24108990/gaza-famine-israel-war-hunger

[Pants-of-dog]

On October 8th, the IDF warned Gaza residents to flee to safe zones, Refugee camps in central Gaza were specifically mentioned.

On October 17, 18, and 25, these camps were bombed by the IDF.

If the argument is that Hamas was operating in these camps, the IDF then deliberately sent civilians to “safety” in a place the IDF knew they would be targeting in the near future.

[Godstud]

So far, the only genocide in the region occurred on Oct 7 when Hamas killed, raped, and kidnapped men, women and children, to start a war.

[wat0n]

On October 8th, the IDF warned Gaza residents to flee to safe zones, Refugee camps in central Gaza were specifically mentioned.

On October 17, 18, and 25, these camps were bombed by the IDF.

If the argument is that Hamas was operating in these camps, the IDF then deliberately sent civilians to “safety” in a place the IDF knew they would be targeting in the near future.

This is a non-sequitur and does not provide any reason for disregarding the testimony of a hostage.

Along with the fact Hamas itself admits it has a battalion in Nuseirat.

I wonder if you will also deny she was raped, even though she says otherwise. It would not surprise me, at all. But then don't be like "believe all women" or some other of that nonsense.