[Istanbuller]

Israel is a failed state. It can't manage to live peacefully. Israelis and Palestinians both flee to Turkey after the war broke out there. There are record number of them are coming here.

[Godstud]

@Istanbuller How silly. Most states would be failed if we went by that criteria. Hell, Turkey's been in more wars! They must be a failed state!!

Everyone flees war. That's nothing new.

[Istanbuller]

@Istanbuller How silly. Most states would be failed if we went by that criteria. Hell, Turkey's been in more wars! They must be a failed state!!

Everyone flees war. That's nothing new.

Last war on our land was almost 100 years ago. Turkey has been in peace even more than Western Europe since Turkey did not join WWII.

[Rich]

Tainari votes for you to be friends with Palestinians and you have some tea and cookies with them eh?

Ah well that might happen a lot sooner than you might expect.

I think your plan is more humane than Netanyahu's.

Its maybe more humane than you think. The first thing is that the blockade should stop immediately. What's more again this is just rhetoric, but all powers are perfectly entitled to give ultimatum's to Israel to end the blockade and take any action up to and including military action if Israel fails to comply with that.

As to my plans, Ive edited it to 4 plans.

Plan 1 hasn't happened over the last 50 years so our working assumption has to be that its not going to happen.

Plan 2 Britain and Europe are full up. The Muslims have stolen far too much land from us over the last 1400 years. However if the United States really want to help the Israeli that they claim to care about so much, the US is a big place they could offer the Palestinians a homeland if they want. Again great if it happens but our working assumption has to be that its not going to happen.

Plan 3 would not be easy ride. I've mentioned it to show how far some of us are willing to go to support Israel. However I think its extremely unlikely that the Israelis would do this, so for a third time the assumption must be that this is not going to happen.

So my bottom line should be to tell Israel that times run out. You've had well over half a century treating Gazans as Stateless people. Unless you can think of a plan right now we accept that the Gazans are not going to leave Gaza. we also accept that Gaza is not going to become part of Egypt again. You don't seem to want that. You don't want Gaza to become an independent state. Yes I can totally see how that wouldn't work.

You break it you own it. You break it and then insist on controlling it for half a century you definitely own it. Therefore Gazans should be given full citizenship rights now. Not in a generation, not in a decade, not in five years time but now in as in the next few months, as quickly as the organisational practicalities allow.

[wat0n]

Please note that Israel is as bad as Palestine.

Collective punishment is a war crime prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol II.

By punishing all Palestinians for this recent terrorist attack, they actually are creating more hate against Israel and helping Hamas(the terrorist organization part of their government) recruit more people to their cause, as it demonstrates how terrible Israel is.

That's precisely why Hamas places its rocket launchers in residential neighborhoods, so hitting them will affect civilians in one way or another (at the very least by destroying their property) and will effectively affect everyone. There's nothing that can be done about it, is it?

@Rich I propose 4) Gaza is placed under international supervision once Hamas and the other armed groups are routed out.

[Godstud]

@wat0n Cutting off power, water, etc. is also collective punishment, and it doesn't involve military effort to do so.

Israel has some of the best special forces in the world. Saying they aren't capable of going in and destroying rockets, etc. without wrecking whole cities, is ridiculous. Something can be done, but bombing neighbourhoods is just easier.

It's an international war crime, as much as terrorism is.

@Istanbuller Having enemies doesn't mean much. USA is a failed state because of 9/11? You just hate Israelis.

[wat0n]

@wat0n Cutting off power, water, etc. is also collective punishment, and it doesn't involve military effort to do so.

Israel has some of the best special forces in the world. Saying they aren't capable of going in and destroying rockets, etc. without wrecking whole cities, is ridiculous. Something can be done, but bombing neighbourhoods is just easier.

It's an international war crime, as much as terrorism is.

No, they can't. It's not just Israel, even American forces can't carry out a ground incursion without previously bombing the places where enemies are hiding without facing heavy losses.

A great example to contrast is Operation Inherent Resolve (the ongoing war against ISIS). The bulk of American activity has consisted in aerial bombings - indeed, there have been 20 American soldiers killed in hostile situations, 87 killed in non-hostile situations and 295 WIA; compared to 8,000+ civilians killed by aerial bombings done by the Coalition -, precisely because it's not particularly easy to fight an urban ground war.

Interestingly, criticism of Inherent Resolve is nowhere close to the criticism Israel is facing even though we saw Hamas behave exactly like ISIS inside its own territory.

[Tainari88]

:) Ah well that might happen a lot sooner than you might expect.


Its maybe more humane than you think. The first thing is that the blockade should stop immediately. What's more again this is just rhetoric, but all powers are perfectly entitled to give ultimatum's to Israel to end the blockade and take any action up to and including military action if Israel fails to comply with that.

As to my plans, Ive edited it to 4 plans.

Plan 1 hasn't happened over the last 50 years so our working assumption has to be that its not going to happen.

Plan 2 Britain and Europe are full up. The Muslims have stolen far too much land from us over the last 1400 years. However if the United States really want to help the Israeli that they claim to care about so much, the US is a big place they could offer the Palestinians a homeland if they want. Again great if it happens but our working assumption has to be that its not going to happen.

Plan 3 would not be easy ride. I've mentioned it to show how far some of us are willing to go to support Israel. However I think its extremely unlikely that the Israelis would do this, so for a third time the assumption must be that this is not going to happen.

So my bottom line should be to tell Israel that times run out. You've had well over half a century treating Gazans as Stateless people. Unless you can think of a plan right now we accept that the Gazans are not going to leave Gaza. we also accept that Gaza is not going to become part of Egypt again. You don't seem to want that. You don't want Gaza to become an independent state. Yes I can totally see how that wouldn't work.

You break it you own it. You break it and then insist on controlling it for half a century you definitely own it. Therefore Gazans should be given full citizenship rights now. Not in a generation, not in a decade, not in five years time but now in as in the next few months, as quickly as the organisational practicalities allow.

That is the issue. Full citizenship rights. Human rights. Being able to move around and work for a living, and kids going to school in peace, and infrastructure and stability and respect for all.

That is what any sane people want. But you got politics in the way.

You see how invasions and not giving equal rights turns into a nightmare Rich? I know how that feels in my own ethnic background. Invasions and controlling from afar and denying equal rights. That never turns out well in human history.

[Godstud]

@wat0n The whole point of soldiers is to take risks and potentially die, to save civilian casualties.

[Politics_Observer]

I am listening to some of the Israeli soldiers being interviewed on TV and I can tell they are not combat hardened and are still naive about what they are about to go into. At least the ones that were interviewed. There is going to be a lot of civilian casualties when they go in.

Netanyahu, whom I am not a fan of due to his judicial reform push, is not naive though. He understands what is going to happen. He probably has a long history of fighting wars himself though I do not know Netanyahu's military record.

[Unthinking Majority]

@skinster

Ohh this isn't my first rodeo. I am familiar with this business. If Hamas starts executing hostages, then if I were Israel they should in return start executing Hamas prisoners in their custody. If Hamas doesn't release the hostages unconditionally without strings attached, then everybody in Gaza literally be starved to death.

This is a war and anybody who has been to war, understands the REAL rules to the game and is not niave to them. Moreover, in addition to the unconditional release of Israeli hostages, in revenge for Hamas killing innocent Israel's citizens, those Hamas operatives involved in the attack and planning of the attack will need to be killed to deter Hamas from taking hostages again in the future to ensure the safety and security of Israeli citizens. This is the way the game is REALLY played.

@Rich

Rich, when the war starts the law falls silent. This is how you handle terrorists who kill innocent civilians. This is the only language they understand. Israel needs to stop bullshitting around and do what they must to protect their citizens. You can't pussyfoot around with bloodthirsty and barbaric terrorists.

Things like starving everybody in Gaza to death sounds a bit harsh don't you think? Probably not a good idea for Israel to turn itself into the monsters they're fighting, or the monsters in Europe they fled from when Israel was created. They need to respond strongly but murdering millions of civilians is not exactly proportional.

[Politics_Observer]

@Unthinking Majority

There is no clean war and you are not understanding the kind of enemy Israel is fighting nor the nature of this type of warfare. That's exactly what Israel is doing right now is starving all of Gaza by denying and cutting it off from food, water, fuel, and electricity.

[Skynet]

Gaza has to release the foreign nationals especially the Americans or the US has no legal base to take part in this conflict.

[Godstud]

Gaza has to release the foreign nationals, especially the Thais, who are not part of this conflict, and never have been.

‘Nothing to do with this’: Thai families plead for Hamas captives’ release
Fourteen Thai workers are believed to have been taken captive by Hamas, with 21 others feared dead.
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023 ... es-release

[Politics_Observer]

@Sandzak

If Hezbollah gets involved then the United States could start hitting Hezbollah targets in Lebanon in return.

[JohnRawls]

@Sandzak

If Hezbollah gets involved then the United States could start hitting Hezbollah targets in Lebanon in return.

Lol at Trump doing press converences supporting Hamas basically. I wonder how good Republicans party moral state after that is. Will be funny if hardcore Republican Christians start voting Biden just because of what Trump is saying

[Politics_Observer]

@JohnRawls

I will say this John, the Soviets did a far better job at handling Middle East terrorists when they kidnapped one of their diplomats than the US and Israel does when dealing with Middle East terrorists.

[B0ycey]

I do wonder why the Iron Dome had such a catastrophic failure. But in any case, Israel are going beyond proportionality in terms of their right for self defence. They are also breaking UN law by restricting food, fuel and water to Gaza. Two wrongs don't make a right. If Israel want to defeat Hamas, my advice to them is to make their existence irrelevant. Given that, why are the warmongers calling for more death rather than dialogue and a resolution to the Palestinian question which is decades over due already?

[Potemkin]

@wat0n The whole point of soldiers is to take risks and potentially die, to save civilian casualties.

No, it isn’t @Godstud. It’s really not.

[Tainari88]

No, it isn’t @Godstud. It’s really not.

People do not understand war conditions very well do they Potemkin?

Soldiers are armed, fed, watered, fueled and trained to either attack or defend some land. The civilians do not have any of those resources. So they are just moving targets. And many of the soldiers are all brainwashed assholes who do whatever the fuck the corrupt Netanyahu and his military forces tell him to do. Following orders. They are not different than the other soldiers in history who are brainwashed into justifying mass murder in their own stupid minds.

In war conditions the innocent are the first to pay the price. They can't have dinner in peace, buy groceries, go to work, have kids in school, or routines. It is basically survival modes and knowing that you have very few options left. If you do not have cash on hand or an embassy that takes you in as a war refugee and gives you a program of safety you are stuck in that situation. Could be you run out of water and food and fuel. You are there without a way out.

Israel is being unreasonable in the extreme.

They will just piss off the people who live in Gaza and who have zero options of survival. Hamas is Hamas. But Palestineans=Hamas is not true. Many Palestineans do not support Hamas.

The ones who do will be outside of Gaza since they knew what was coming. This was a planned attack that took months to plan. It was not a random attack. The probabilities of the masterminds behind that attack are not in Gaza. Probably in Jordan, Lebanon or some other neighboring nation. They might even be in Egypt. It can even be Saudi Arabia too. So, to punish Gaza that way is not going to be acceptable.

They will though. That is war. A bunch of innocent babies, children, old people and innocent women and workers who just wanted to make a living for their families are going to be the 'terrorist targets' and be killed by Israeli forces, wanting revenge. War is awful. Dehumanizes people makes them want to kill off people's mothers and children. A bunch of barbaric pigs they all are. You can not justify such things. Not in a million years.