[noemon]

I would like to see the claims of the resident zionist apologists published in a peer-reviewed academic journal, because zionist internet-apologists have a lot less credibility than the Israeli scholars requesting the removal of their names from the credits of Israeli text-books due to designated racism.

[Pisa]

Peled is an Israeli professor. Like her I can understand the descriptive of wales & scotland the areas shown in Israeli maps as empty are shown as parts of Israel. Your parallel example is a figment of your imagination.

Peled doesn't teach children. She doesn't know what teachers say in class. She didn't say a word about the text accompanying the maps. Her point was "look, blank areas, no people". I proved that blank areas are widely used when those areas are irrelevant to the subject. I proved that the same method was used when teaching about arabs in Israel. I proved that odds and ends taken out of context are worth shit.

Look, bad bad brazilians, no people in South America, no names, they must think it belongs to them:



Are you seriously thinking that israelis invented the blank no-name areas on maps for nefarious purposes?

[noemon]

Are you seriously thinking that israelis invented the blank no-name areas on maps for nefarious purposes?

An Israeli professor is showing that Israel is showing the West Bank as an empty part of Israel to its pupils in their textbooks, and the South-American map you provided does not show the other countries as empty parts of Brazil.

[Pisa]

An Israeli professor is showing so and the South-American map you provided does not show the other countries as empty parts of Brazil.

Appeal to authority? Srsly?

She's not a school teacher, she doesn't have a clue about what's really going on in a classroom, her opinion is her opinion, and she's entitled to it, but is just an opinion, and to pretend otherwise is to defy logic. Context and perspective are completely missing from her video. Lame.

How can you tell that the blank areas on the Brazil map are not perceived by brazilian kids as uninhabited areas of Brazil?

[noemon]

How can you tell that the blank areas on the Brazil map are not perceived by brazilian kids as uninhabited areas of Brazil?

Because they are not shown as parts of Brazil, like the West Bank is shown to Israeli pupils as an empty part of Israel.

An Israeli professor is showing that Israel is showing the West Bank as an empty part of Israel to its pupils in their textbooks, and the South-American map you provided does not show the other countries as empty parts of Brazil.

Appeal to authority?

Just appeal to reality. If you have any evidence to the contrary of those shown by an Israeli professor then you are welcome to post it.

[Pisa]

Because they are not shown as parts of Brazil, like the West Bank is shown to Israeli pupils as an empty part of Israel.

How do you know that the West Bank is shown to israeli pupils as an empty part of Israel? How do you know what israeli teachers say to israeli pupils in israeli schools?

How do you know that the blank areas in that Brazil map are not shown to brazilian pupils as parts of Brazil? How do you know what brazilian teachers say to brazilian pupils in brazilian schools?

Just appeal to reality. If you have any evidence to the contrary of those shown by an Israeli professor then you are welcome to post it.

I don't have to bring evidence. She has to prove her allegations. She doesn't. The video only shows her opinions, not the reality.

She's not a school teacher, she has no clue about what kids are taught in class, so please spare me the "israeli professor" theatrics.

[noemon]

I don't have to bring evidence.

That sounds convenient to you but when you dispute Israeli professors you need to provide evidence to the contrary especially when you have confused south-american maps so many times in order to apologize for Israeli racism in textbooks which is stated by an Israeli professor and the Israeli scholars who want their names removed from the textbooks due to racism.

You can spare us the non-sense indeed.

One Israeli apologist tried to deal with her evidence and he has cited her evidence in his apologetics which have already been shown to be fallacious and missing:

I had a look at the paper you present and only a preliminary view shows how biased the author of the paper is while he is in fact confirming the bias of Israeli textbooks, for example his refutation of Assertion 4 the one you presented does not cite any evidence unlike he does with the other bits, which can only lead one to assume that it is completely made up, but the real mackoy is Assertion 1. The lady claims that 'Palestinian' is avoided by Israeli textbooks and replaced with Arab and this man presents all the cases where 'Palestinian' is mentioned in Israeli textbooks and the only cases presented as cited by him are within a negative context

We can observe that this assertion is contradicted by the extensive use in the books of the term ‘Palestinian’ in discussions of the historical conflict between two national movements in the country. Here is a short list of examples.
Book 2: “the Palestinian national demands” (page 160), "the Palestinians' national awakening" (page 166), “the Palestinians’ arguments against Zionism” (page 181) and other such mentions on pages 161, 167 and more.
Book 3: “the crystallization of Palestinian nationalism” (page 79), “the Arab-Palestinians’ national demands” (page 83), “Palestinian nationalism” (page 92) and other mentions on pages 81, 87, 95, 182 and more.
Book 4: “the Arab-Palestinian public” (page 95), "the Arab-Palestinian nation”

While the neutral words like 'nation', 'public' suddenly become 'Arab-Palestinian', by the time you reach to farm you 've got to 'Arab'.

So if these are the instances where Palestinian is mentioned then one can guess that in all other instances like for example Palestinian wheat, or Palestinians farms, or Palestinians factory, the Palestinian is replaced with Arab, which is exactly what the lady is claiming.

Last but not least, Israeli scholars as per the OP are protesting against the racism of Israeli textbooks by removing their own names from the credits. So it does not really allow much room for doubt.

[danholo]

So 'one can guess' is your level of proof according to your argument? I don't see how the word "Arab" is even derogatory but I guess that it is the problem? The word Palestinian and Arab are used so interchangeably by everyone I don't even know what the argument is trying to be here.

There is no negative context in the apologist's paper as far as I'm concerned and you've been unable to disprove his defense.

[noemon]

The proof is that an Israeli professor and several Israeli scholars accuse Israel of racism in their textbooks. You posted the arguments of an Israeli apologist and I dealt with them according to my reasoning, if you have better reasoning I am more than willing to listen to it.

Simply dismissing something does not cut it because by the same token I can dismiss the both of you without any reason.

[danholo]

I posted that her claims were interesting but I take them with a grain of salt. The links I posted were to support my claim; she misrepresents facts.

I've never claimed outright that there is no racism evident in Israeli textbooks, nor in Israeli society. What I'm saying is that there is material and evidence to the contrary. My reasoning is that Israel is a dynamic society: There are racists, and non-racists. Also, the racism in that society is also product of its surroundings. Racism is evil and Israel's opponents only see that in it. This is a vehicle to dehumanize Israel, Israelis and Israeli society and that is racist in itself.

[noemon]

The link you posted was shown that your author misrepresented facts my failing to cite the example you quoted, which means that he misrepresented the facts and not the Israeli professor.

Also your author showed us all the instances in Israeli textbooks where the words 'Palestinian' and 'Arab-Palestinias' are mentioned and from his citations I reached to certain conclusions but I am more than willing to reconsider my conclusions if I'm shown otherwise.

This is a vehicle to dehumanize Israel, Israelis and Israeli society

When we deal with the racism in our societies, that is not racism, your statement is absurd, recently I posted about the cruel reception of immigrants in Greece, I do not believe I am being racist against my fellow Greeks when I point that out to them so we can deal with it. Racism is apologizing for the racism so it can carry on existing, which is what several people in this forum are doing and which is no longer tolerable to rational human beings.

[danholo]

According to what are those 'all the samples'? It says: "a short list of examples".

Remember, the books Elhanan used in her earlier paper (which was prior to her 2012 book) only uses 7 Israeli textbooks out of hundreds available. I find that this is not a balanced or true representation by any reasoning.

When we deal with the racism in our societies, that is not racism, recently I posted about the cruel reception of immigrants in Greece, I do not believe I am being racist against my fellow Greeks when I point that out to them so we can deal with it. Racism is apologizing for it so it can carry on existing.

Well, I'm in no disagreement here; I simply don't see Heinie or skinster as invidiuals who are supporting Israeli society to rid itself from its negative aspects but ones who inflate them to illusory proportions.

[noemon]

According to what are those 'all the samples'? It says: "a short list of examples".

The ones he quotes, there are more examples which he cites and which can only be assumed to be identical to the ones he quotes, since that is his claim & reasoning as well.

I find that this is not a balanced or true representation by any reasoning.

Why not? Racism can be proven by adequate samples not by exhaustion, soon you will argue that every single Israeli person will need to be psycho-analysed by a clinical psychiatrist to establish something for certain, much like you are effectively arguing that all the Israeli text-books like math and science should be racist, too for racism to be definitely shown.

I simply don't see Heinie or skinster as invidiuals who are supporting Israeli society to rid itself from its negative aspects but ones who inflate them to illusory proportions.

I do not see intentional inflationary illusions by skinster or Heinie(but I am open to examining their statements if shown otherwise), I do see though several deflationary illusions by the zionist apologists. Racism and racist apologetics are no longer tolerable in this forum, they will be scorned without mercy until all the racists get it through their heads, this I believe has been clear from my part on the past month already. If you bring forward possible racism from skinster and Heinie I promise to deal with it, but you cannot make allegations about other people without evidence because that is sycophantic and repeated attempts are frowned upon to put it mildly.

[danholo]

Why not? Racism can be proven by adequate samples not by exhaustion, soon you will argue that every single Israeli person will need to be psycho-analysed by a clinical psychiatrist to establish something for certain, much like you are effectively arguing that all the Israeli text-books like math and science should be racist, too for racism to be definitely shown. :?:

I find that the paper makes a sufficient case against Peled-Elhanan's reasoning and allegations, some of which you have been unable to disprove. It's critique of her sample is only an introductory clause but it makes sense - and even the material she uses in those are examined and debunked.

I do not see intentional inflationary illusions by skinster or Heinie

Illusions are generally not intentional...?

Your [x] already blaming the 14 year old girl for being shot to death

The girl is not dead, so this is illusion.

http://www.imemc.org/article/74950

Claiming racism, not to mention murder, when it's not, is libel - not racism. Defense of false claims is 'apologetics...'? Or is it ok to call people racist or paint an entire society as so and dehumanize them in that way? I hope your crusade against racism is as true as your fight against libel. Both are destructive.

edit: Fixed false quote

[noemon]

I find that the paper makes a sufficient case against Peled-Elhanan's reasoning and allegations, some of which you have been unable to disprove. It's critique of her sample is only an introductory clause but it makes sense - and even the material she uses in those are examined and debunked.

Repeating something ad nauseum does not make it true, it's simply a fallacy, your author does not cite evidence for the argument you quoted and that makes the argument completely made-up. That is also quite simple.

Illusions are generally not intentional...?

Your [x] already blaming the 14 year old girl for being shot to death

The girl is not dead, so this is illusion.

First of all, you have quoted my name instead of skinster's which is libel so I need to ask you to remove my name from the quote.
Second, skinster is not intentionally lying about the girl being shot to death, she was indeed shot by the IDF in the West Bank and in the video she looked pretty dead to me as well as everybody else, you posted that the girl has not died yet and skinster or anyone else for that matter did not deny it, so no danholo that is not an illusion, but your claim is erroneous and illusory indeed. Are you claiming that the death of the girl will make the IDF racist and her survival will not make them racist?

Claiming racism, not to mention murder, when it's not, is libel - not racism. Defense of false claims is 'apologetics...'? Or is it ok to call people racist or paint an entire society as so and dehumanize them in that way? I hope your crusade against racism is as true as your fight against libel. Both are destructive.

a) This is off-topic and will be directed to the appropriate channels.
b) No danholo, pointing out racist policies in Saudi Arabia like for example the racist policy of not allowing non-Saudis to own property is not racist when pointed out, it is not racist to point out that there is an active Israeli policy to not allow non-Jews to participate in purchasing and leasing land in Israel, pointing out apartheid policies in South-Africa was not racist. Defending these policies, apologizing for them and trying to hide them under the rug with off-topics is racism though.
Lastly it is not racist for an Israeli professor as well as several other Israeli scholars to protest against Israeli racism in school text-books, it is racism though to defend the racism of Israeli text-books by erroneously pretending that it does not exist and that these people who protest against the racism should be discarded for being racists. That is absurd.

Both are destructive.

Indeed and that is why you need to remove my name from your quote because that is libel on your part and also stop making sycophantic allegations about other people, just like you are doing to skinster right now, which is not only off-topic but also libel.

[danholo]

Repeating something ad nauseum does not make it true, it's simply a fallacy, your author does not cite evidence for the argument you quoted and that makes the argument completely made-up. That is also quite simple.

Which argument did I quote?

First of all, you have quoted my name instead of skinster's which is libel so I need to ask you to remove my name from the quote.

Indeed, I have mistakenly quoted you and it has been fixed.

Second, skinster is not intentionally lying about the girl being shot to death, she was indeed shot by the IDF in the West Bank and in the video she looked pretty dead to me as well as everybody else, you posted that the girl has not died yet and skinster or anyone else for that matter did not deny it, so no danholo that is not an illusion, but your claim is erroneous and illusory indeed.

My argument is spot on and yours only supports it. If something looks like something to you and it isn't true, you should be happy for someone to correct it for you. Also, I never said anything was intentional. What I'm saying is that illusions are not facts.

Are you claiming that the death of the girl will make the IDF racist and her survival will not make them racist?

If this is what you've deduced from my argument, I think we're not even discussing the same topic.

a) This is off-topic and will be directed to the appropriate channels.
b) No danholo, pointing out racist policies in Saudi Arabia like for example the racist policy of not allowing non-Saudis to own property is not racist when pointed out, it is not racist to point out that there is an active Israeli policy to not allow non-Jews to participate in purchasing and leasing land in Israel, pointing out apartheid policies in South-Africa was not racist. Defending these policies, apologizing for them and trying to hide them under the rug with off-topics is racism though.
Lastly it is not racist for an Israeli professor as well as several other Israeli scholars to protest against Israeli racism in school text-books, it is racism though to defend the racism of Israeli text-books by erroneously pretending that it does not exist and that these people who protest against the racism should be discarded for being racists. That is absurd.

I'm happy we are in agreement. I guess we are on the same page after all.

Indeed and that is why you need to remove my name from your quote because that is libel on your part and also stop making sycophantic allegations about other people, just like you are doing to skinster right now, which is not only off-topic but also libel.

Well, she claimed that a person was shot to death, which isn't true, which is a false allegation. She wrote this allegation, unless it was somebody who hijacked her account, so it's not libel.

[noemon]

Which argument did I quote?

Assertion 4 from his paper as already pointed out to you.

Indeed, I have mistakenly quoted you and it has been fixed.

No problem but the irony is irony. You made a mistake, just like skinster made an incorrect assumption that the girl looking dead is actually dead, I don't hold it against you though.

I never said anything was intentional. What I'm saying is that illusions are not facts.

No, you explicitly accused skinster of purposely creating illusions to inflate anti-Israeli narratives. Skinster's saying that the girl was shot to death is not conducive to her inflating something to make that point, the girl looked dead to her, to me and to everybody. It's good to know that she is still fighting for her life though.

[danholo]

Assertion 4 from his paper as already pointed out to you.

OK. I can't see a lack of citations.

I agree that the lack of separation of Israel on maps from the entirety of the land (with Gaza and West Bank) is delusional - and even racist.

No problem but the irony is irony. You made a mistake, just like skinster made an incorrect assumption that the girl looking dead is actually dead, I don't hold it against you though.

I know. The mistake was made at the perfect time - to my detriment.

No, you explicitly accused skinster of purposely creating illusions to inflate anti-Israeli narratives. Skinster's saying that the girl was shot to death is not conducive to her inflating something to make that point, the girl looked dead to her, to me and to everybody. It's good to know that she is still fighting for her life though.

I don't think I ever said it was purposeful, that's why they are illusions.

[noemon]

OK. I can't see a lack of citations.

Well then I guess you can provide the citation for assertion 4 then because I can't see anything.

I know. The mistake was made at the perfect time - to my detriment.

Just shows that you are accusing skinster for something that you and me for that matter are quite capable of doing as humans, but honestly now this was not detrimental to you in any way, people do not hold such things against you and nor should they and nor will I or anyone else.

[danholo]

Well then I guess you can provide the citation for assertion 4 then because I can't see anything.

The assertion is supposedly made by Peled-Elhanan in her paper and it is mentioned as "Presentaton p. 1"