[Aekos]

Well we Muslims do not recognize Israel and therefore for us it doesn't exist.

I'll try to use an analogy this time. We Serbs don't recognize Kosovo, and never will, as a separate entity from our state. That doesn't change the fact that it is out of our control, that it's basically an international protectorate. The province has at least as much importance for us as Palestine has for Arabs.

But most of us know when we have to compromise. We're moving toward the European Union even though most of the countries in this Union approved of the illegal redrawing of borders (much like how Israel was created).

We have to look at what is in our best interest. And that's peace. Israel is the most powerful country in the region. If you want peace, you'll have to recognize it sooner or later.

[Lin Zexu]

I'll try to use an analogy this time. We Serbs don't recognize Kosovo, and never will, as a separate entity from our state. That doesn't change the fact that it is out of our control, that it's basically an international protectorate. The province has at least as much importance for us as Palestine has for Arabs.

But most of us know when we have to compromise. We're moving toward the European Union even though most of the countries in this Union approved of the illegal redrawing of borders (much like how Israel was created).

We have to look at what is in our best interest. And that's peace. Israel is the most powerful country in the region. If you want peace, you'll have to recognize it sooner or later.

Difference between you Serbs and us Muslims is that we dont comprimise with our religion and honour. Our Qu'ran and even the Torah forbids the Jews to reinstate their Jewish nation. Even orthodox Jews say the Torah says that God will give them their land in the end of days by the last prophet.

Anyhow back to the topic. We Muslims will not give up a land that important and vital especially not to an enemy which is bound to destroy Islam. We cannot accept this threat and loonatic ideology of Zionist to rest in our backyard. The Muslims never accepted the Crusader states and even though they had truces with them they never accepted its legitimacy. This is why the Crusader states were reliable on the import of goods and man from Europe and this is same case of Israel. Israel depends on the migration of new Jews and billions of aid from the US and another billions from Jewish organisations and Jewish companies abroad.

The day that we Muslims lay down our arms and recognize Israel is the day that we will never recover from and never leave in peace with each other again. It is like recognizing shaitan's home in your backyard. You Serbs are willing to sacrifice Kosovo for EU membership... well that's good for you but we Muslims will not sacrifice Palestine for ANY amount of GOLD, MONEY OR OTHER MATERIAL that they offer us.

This is a difference of PRINCIPALS and faith of us Muslims and you Serbs.

We Muslims dont comprimise with the Devil as our Prophet(pbuh) forbade us to and as even Jesus(pbuh) has told you in the Bible.

[danholo]

Let go of your ego man, let go... Calm down. :/ How are we disrupting your life exactly? We're an inkblot in your beautiful and untarnished white tapestry?

[Lin Zexu]

Let go of your ego man, let go... Calm down. :/ How are we disrupting your life exactly? We're an inkblot in your beautiful and untarnished white tapestry?

I am calm just use CAPS to make things more clear

[Aekos]

This is a difference of PRINCIPALS and faith of us Muslims and you Serbs.

I don't think this has anything to do with it. You have to look at the reality "on the ground" rather than your idealized vision. For both of us, Israel and Kosovo have been created through policies of ethnic cleansing (and immigration for the former and birth rate for the latter). Because of this the "other" group makes up a vast majority of both territories.

You can't kick these people out. Even if it were possible it wouldn't be moral. So we can focus on Northern Kosovo and make sure that no real border is created with the entity, and also make sure Kosovo never gets recognized as a real country rather than a protectorate.

You can focus on the West Bank and Gaza Strip and make those areas the prosperous framework of Palestine. One day conditions may be right for all of Israel to be part of Palestine. One day conditions may be right for us to reclaim Kosovo. You have to take things step by step and not let pride hold you back.

[Benjamin]

Aekos, you can't compare those 2 issues. Every issue is different. Those 2 issues do not have much in common. The whole processes happened under quite different circumstances.

Israel can not be compared with Kosovo. Israel is internationally fully recognized state. Perfectly capable to attack 10 countries at the same time if needed. Only if those countries aren't nuclear powers.

Israel isn't even disputed anymore. At least, not under the current international law. It's disputed only in the minds of those who are incapable to accept reality.

Israel is not going anywhere. It will remain where it is for many years to come. Even if 1 billion of Muslims unites and attacks Israel tomorrow morning.

I'm afraid that your country (Serbia, right? I thought you were from Bosnia and Herzegovina cause of another thread) will never be capable to takeover Kosovo and keep its Albanians as a constitutional citizens of Serbia. For that, Serbia would have to change a lot. Internal revolution would be needed. It looks pretty much impossible at this point in time. Serbia didn't change much since the late 80's and 90's. It didn't face its own mistakes and negative moves. It never discussed it. And it should have done that since it played a major role in the brakeup of former Yugoslavia.

[sploop!]

Israel is not going anywhere. It will remain where it is for many years to come. Even if 1 billion of Muslims unites and attacks Israel tomorrow morning.

Even if this were true (and I doubt it), it does not mean Israel can continue to terrorise its neighbours, and it does not mean everyone is going to shrug their shoulders, say 'Oh, well' and walk away.

[Aekos]

Even if this were true (and I doubt it), it does not mean Israel can continue to terrorise its neighbours, and it does not mean everyone is going to shrug their shoulders, say 'Oh, well' and walk away.

That's not what he meant. He's saying that Israel needs to be recognized as it isn't going away. Would Israel be committing war crimes in Gaza if Hamas decided to recognize Israel's right to exist and continue the peace process? Likely not.

And Benjamin, while I agree with you in this argument I see that you took another chance to criticize my people. In a gesture of Yugoslav brotherhood I won't criticize yours. Maybe you should open your eyes and realize that it's not us, but all the people (Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks) like you that hold on to old (and superficial) racial hatreds and that can't let go of the past that caused the downfall of our (once-great) country.

[Benjamin]

Sloop, you can have your doubts. However, the whole issue is going on for a long period of time. My grandparents haven't even met yet when it all started. Trust me, Israel can continue. And it will continue. That's all you can do. Shrug your shoulders and walk away. We probably won't live long enough to see the end.

Aekos, you see, that's where the difference is between our issue and Israel. Israel does not have to negotiate. Therefore, it wouldn't have to sign any kind of agreement even if Palestinians abandon violence. From their moves, it's obvious that they don't have any intention to stop. Under the current circumstances, they can always have some dumb excuse like: "they hate us, we have to fight them, peace is insecure".

It's a simple life rule. They're doing it only cause they know they can! What you're going to do about it? Deal with it!

All that only helps terrorism to expand. Unfortunately. Instead of fighting terrorism, USA, UK and others are making sure that even more Muslims become terrorists. Islamic terrorism is a consequence of western foreign policies in huge part. Although, some muslim countries are among the worst when it comes to human rights, there are millions of Christians living in Arab countries today. Coptic Christians in Egypt for an example. Also many in Syria, Lebanon....
Do a Google search. The current president of Lebanon is Christian.

[Aekos]

@Benjamin

That's where the international community comes in! If Hamas actually recognized Israel and kept the peace process going, Israel would have a much harder time justifying their delay.

And Lebanon was originally created for Christians, it's no surprise that its president is one. Egypt's civil rights abuses against the indigenous Christian minority is despicable. It didn't used to be that way in the Muslim world...look up Al-Andalus for instance.

[Gravy]

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what should be done to solve the crisis?

How do you deal with a problem like that when you have an ethnic culture living in the country whos primary objection is to destroy it? What the hell are you supposed to do about that?

"We are going to decide whether to join the government according to its programme," said Mahmoud al-Zahar, one of the most prominent Hamas leaders in the occupied territories. "Our aim is not to cooperate with the Israelis economically, politically, socially, on security. They are the enemy. They killed our people. They are responsible for the long-standing suffering of the Palestinian people. So how can we cooperate with them?"

They dont want to cooperate. So what do they suggest as a reasonable solution? Sounds like war to me.

[Benjamin]

Aekos, I haven't said that life is perfect for Christians in the Arab countries. My point is that Christians survived for more then 1350 years under the Muslim rulers in Egypt. And they do have many rights, representatives in government, and so on. They're producing their own wines in Egypt for an example. Former UN Secretary General is a Coptic Christian Boutros Boutros Gali. They're living a normal life. Have their language, monumental Churches, everything.

The point is that it's not true that Muslims want to change anyone's way of life. The main cause of terrorism are western foreign policies in the last few decades. There are some extreme islamic organisations, that's true. But that's only a small part of the causes of terrorism.

[Aekos]

They're living a normal life. Have their language, monumental Churches, everything.

This is simply untrue. First of all, their language (Coptic) is only spoken by a couple dozen people today. They mostly speak Arabic. They also have to get special permission to build churches, and have had to get special worker permits and whatnot. It's also very hard for (Muslim) Egyptian converts to Christianity to get any sort of identification. They live in conditions worse than Arab Israelis (even with all the discrimination there).

Muslims have been some of the most tolerant rulers historically, that's true. But you can hardly say that the Taliban or Iranian government or even Hamas of today is tolerant. Not that they in any way represent the majority of Muslims that are moderate and tolerant people, but their regimes have been oppressive. Can you believe that the caliphs of Al-Andalus, a theocracy, were far more secular and tolerant than say today's rulers of Egypt, nominally a republic?

[Benjamin]

Blah, can you prove your claims about Egypt, Aekos? What kind of permits are those? Huh, don't think so. Read about it. There are many monumental Coptic Ortodox Churches throughout the Egypt. They have much more rights then Muslims have in some EU countries (like Greece, read about Muslims in Xhanti, so called "Pomaks" mate, hehe). There are many famous Coptic Christians. That fact makes me think that they are not marginalized. The whole Egypt is Arabized. That's true. Even many Christians in Lebanon have Arabic names. But they are still Christians. Huh, don't know about any famous Israeli Arabs? Respected members of society?

[Aekos]

"Christians have found the building and repair of churches, however, to be problematic. Government regulations dating from Ottoman times require non-Muslims to obtain presidential decrees before building or repair a place of worship. Although in 1999 President Mubarak issued a decree making repairs of all places of worship subject to a 1976 civil construction code, in practice Christians report difficulty obtaining permits. Once permits have been obtained, Christians report being preventing from performing repairs or building by local authorities." - US Department of State

"Human Rights Watch also indicates issues of concern. For example they discuss how the law does not recognize conversion from Islam to other religions."

"On December 16, 2006, only after one hearing, the Supreme Administrative Council of Egypt ruled against the Bahá'ís and stating that the government may not recognize the Bahá'í Faith in official identification numbers."

"The Coptic community, as well as several human rights activists and intellectuals (such as Saad Eddin Ibrahim and Tarek Heggy), maintain that the number of Christians occupying government posts is not proportional to the number of Copts in Egypt. Of the 32 cabinet ministers, two are Copts" - compare that to the 10-20% of Copts in Egypt.

And I do know about famous Israeli Arabs (mostly politicians though) but that contradicts your argument. I'm saying that Arabs in Israel face more tolerance than Christians in Muslim countries (with several notable exceptions).

[Lin Zexu]

"Christians have found the building and repair of churches, however, to be problematic. Government regulations dating from Ottoman times require non-Muslims to obtain presidential decrees before building or repair a place of worship. Although in 1999 President Mubarak issued a decree making repairs of all places of worship subject to a 1976 civil construction code, in practice Christians report difficulty obtaining permits. Once permits have been obtained, Christians report being preventing from performing repairs or building by local authorities." - US Department of State

"Human Rights Watch also indicates issues of concern. For example they discuss how the law does not recognize conversion from Islam to other religions."

"On December 16, 2006, only after one hearing, the Supreme Administrative Council of Egypt ruled against the Bahá'ís and stating that the government may not recognize the Bahá'í Faith in official identification numbers."

"The Coptic community, as well as several human rights activists and intellectuals (such as Saad Eddin Ibrahim and Tarek Heggy), maintain that the number of Christians occupying government posts is not proportional to the number of Copts in Egypt. Of the 32 cabinet ministers, two are Copts" - compare that to the 10-20% of Copts in Egypt.

And I do know about famous Israeli Arabs (mostly politicians though) but that contradicts your argument. I'm saying that Arabs in Israel face more tolerance than Christians in Muslim countries (with several notable exceptions).

I told you before Aekos, we Muslims have never been racists or apartheid favours before. Jews and Christians lived in our lands when they were being massacred and discriminated in Europe. Today's Muslim governments drink whisky and wine and rule their country as dictators where they torture and kill anyone who has a different set of thought! Saudi/Morocco/Libya/Egypt and etc.

Their leaders are all SUPPORTED by Zionists sitting in Washington behind the president.

If Israel truly cherishes democracy then why is it a hypocrit and why is it standing shoulder to shoulder to North-African authoritarian states who torture and oppress their own Muslims and other monotheistic minorities?

[Benjamin]

Aekos, allright. I accept your quotes as facts. However, I don't think your quotes proved your claims.

Israeli Arabs are in a much worse position. They're generaly satanized by the state of Israel. Have serious problems in Israeli society. Primarily when it comes to building their own homes. Or renovating and expanding the existing ones. They can not get a permit for. Also, most of mosques in what is today known as Israel have been destroyed. Also, they have serious problems if they marry someone who is not a citizen of Israel. They are instantly loosing their citizenship. While the Jews can marry anybody they want to. And that person can come to Israel and live there. Those are all known issues.

Ok, so, there are 2 Coptic Ortodox Christians in the Government of Egypt. Are there any Israeli Arabs in the Government of Israel? Was there ever Israeli Arab in the Government of Israel? Don't think so mate. Israeli Arabs are not even recognized by the Constitution of Israel.

[Aekos]

@Lin zexu

I know historically they were tolerant, but that doesn't excuse the intolerance today, even if they aren't governments of the people.

@Benjamin

There are about 6 Arabs in the Knesset I think, and several Arab political parties.

[Benjamin]

Knesset is the parliament. Not the government.

Boutros Boutros-Ghali (Coptic Ortodox Christian) was the Minister of Foreign Affairs in Egypt for 14 years in a row. He was later the UN Secretary General. Today he is the Director of the Egyptian National Council of Human Rights.

I'm not denying the fact that Copts are being discriminated. What happens to them is what happens to minorities in many societies in the world. People look at them in a different way, with obstacles. Unjust. But they're shouting and asking for equality. But it's not like they can not drive in the same bus as Muslims. Sometimes it's harder for them to find a job, cause of obstacles towards them. Things like that.

I don't think it can be compared with what happens to Israeli Arabs. Imagine Israeli Arab as a Minister in the Government of Israel. Impossible. With the current politics of Israel, those Muslims will not survive for long inside Israel.

[Tailz]

Ill fix this for you

Seamen’s edit of Tailz text reads: Israel opened the borders (not completly but it was hell better than what they would get now), rockets kept flying thus Israel stuffed around with opening and closing the border crossings

That’s a bit of a straw man, but I’ll reply anyway. The agreement was for open border crossings – not open sometimes, or better than what it was, but open border crossings. Israel didn’t honour the agreement to open the borders; Hamas didn’t feel it was obliged to honour the ceasefire. Ultimately the ceasefire was over the border crossing, Hamas needed to provide incoming supplies and material for its people. Thus the whole focus of the ceasefire was the opening and smooth flow of material via the border crossings – the Israeli’s knew this. But that still stuffed around with the border crossings and Hamas launched rockets - the act they had promised not to engage in, in return for open borders – they didn’t launch rockets over the destruction of the smuggler tunnels, or the navy ships shelling the beach (although some non-affiliated groups did), but the issues over the opening closing and smooth flow of supplies through the border crossings did get them launching rockets.

You’re just trying to change events to legitimise the party you support. Heck, both sides really screwed the ceasefire agreement. Israeli warships were shelling the Gaza beach in the first 5 minutes of the ceasefire agreement! And Hamas had tunnels under the border.

So please stop trying to cover the proverbial Zionist ass and displace blame.

Because, thier trading threaten Israeli lives and thus Israel should not allow them to do so

Again, a double standard, especially since the Israeli trade in American made weapons has resulted in an almost 10 fold difference between Palestinian lives lost compared to Israeli lives lost – this in no way legitimises the deaths on ether side – but restricting “their” trade because Israeli lives are at risk when Palestinian lives are risked because of Israeli trade is a double standard.

Well I am going to end this "Israel stole Palestinian land and should give it back immediatly" and "Palestinians only fight because Israel stole their land" bullshit

Like it or not, Palestinians have lost land and property to Zionists, and still continue to do so. Jews and non-Zionist Jews in the region lost land and property because of the resentment against Zionism in surrounding Arab/Muslim societies.

That is a simple reality of the history of this conflict.

The palestinians had most of Israel back in 1948, they could have peace and spare all this 60 year conflict. But what could you expect them to do? One day (!) after the UN declare Jews right to establish a country in Israel the Palestinians started riots and killing of Jews.
One day (!) after Israel declare independence ( they had right to do so), the Palestinians declared war.
Now, they had all the land that they want now from 1948 to 1967, but never even tried to establish a country. Instead they tried to "wipe those Jews", making anything for themselves was not important, what was important was to first "kill the Jews, we will worry about making a country later". They never tried. So I'm sorry (well I'm not, it's just a matter of speech) they lost the wars they started themselves but its not Israel's fault they wanted war.
The Palestinians never prooved they want peace, they only prooved they want the total destructure of Israel. Your " give them some land and open the borderes and you will get peacfull people" argument is unbased and could only come from a naive person or a person that dont know the history of Israel. Either one

Your narrative is partially correct and partially incorrect - obviously you’re focusing on only the elements that help support your point of view of the situation and the conflict history. It is a rather common version of events threaded together into a patchwork history to perpetuate Israeli, and ultimately Zionist innocence. I write Zionist as in the beginning, Zionism was not widely supported by the general Jewish population. Thus the seeds of this catastrophe are not of Jewish design, but Zionist design - as Zionism is not an existential part of Judaism or those who collectively labelled themselves as Jews.

Even though I doubt you will listen, I’ll take a moment to add a few words to try and fill in some of the blanks in your partial history of the conflict.

The palestinians had most of Israel back in 1948, they could have peace and spare all this 60 year conflict. But what could you expect them to do? One day (!) after the UN declare Jews right to establish a country in Israel the Palestinians started riots and killing of Jews.

The roots of the conflict stretch further back than 1948. In fact the UN vote to accept the partition and creation of the state of Israel was pre-empted by David Ben-Gurion declairing the state of Israel.

Why was the state of Israel declared early and outside the direction of the UN? One reason could be that the negotiations in the UN had stalled and looked like the vote could go ether way with most of the major actors deciding that the implantation of the plan was unworkable because of the tensions existing in the region between Zionist militias and Arab/Palestinian militias. Plus also the Arab league was still against a partition plan that gave a large percentage of land to the smallest percentage of inhabitants and still required the transfer of populations between territories.

How did this come about when the plan had already been accepted by a UN vote of 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions? On March 5, 1948, the United Nations Security Council reached an impasse when it refused to pass a resolution which would have accepted the partition plan as a basis for Security Council action. The United States subsequently recommended a temporary UN trusteeship for Palestine "without prejudice to the character of the eventual political settlement", and the Security Council voted to send the matter back to the General Assembly for further deliberation. The General Assembly decided to appoint a Mediator, and relieved their Palestine Commission from any further exercise of responsibility under resolution 181 (II) of 29 November 1947. This would have given David Ben-Gurion and fellow Zionist leaders suficeient reason to consider pre-empting the UN vote and establishing the state of Israel outside the direction of the UN, given prior acceptance of the initial partition plan.

One day (!) after Israel declare independence ( they had right to do so), the Palestinians declared war.

Actually it was the Arab league, not the Palestinians. The Palestinians were, and pretty much still are, a stateless people.

Now, they had all the land that they want now from 1948 to 1967, but never even tried to establish a country.

When the Arab armies of liberation entered, they (Palestinians) ended up as the pawns of those political powers. Very difficult to create a country and there are two well equipped military forces already fighting over your backyard. Since the withdrawal of Arab forces and the occupation by Israeli forces, the success at state building has been limited given the conditions of the occupation, the arrest of Palestinian political figures, etc. A comparison could be made to Zionists attempting to create a Jewish state in the mandate of Palestine, an action which would not have happened without the already in progress League of Nations backed agreements (agreements put forwards by the then controllers of the mandate: British Empire).

Next a distinction must be made (re: they had all the land that they want now from 1948 to 1967), prior to the declaration of Israel and the subsequent war that created the border between what is Israel and what is not Israel (or rather the division between Jewish and Arab populations), the region was whole – not broken down into areas – it was the region under the legal terms of the mandate which was held by the United Nations – which was to be broken down into the State of Israel and the Palestinian state. They (the people residing in the region of Palestine) had all the land simply because that is where they were at that time – it was the later conflicts that really began to divide up the land between Jew and Arab – a division of land that had the United Nations plan been implemented, would have resulted in population transfers (both Jewish and Arab) – one must assume that some form of compensation would have been offered as a part of the UN plan to move populations about.

Instead they tried to "wipe those Jews", making anything for themselves was not important, what was important was to first "kill the Jews, we will worry about making a country later". They never tried. So I'm sorry (well I'm not, it's just a matter of speech) they lost the wars they started themselves but its not Israel's fault they wanted war.

This is rhetoric and of little debating value. Both parties of the conflict included groups more than willing to wipe the other out, and certainly attempting to do so. Even during the Second World War both parties included groups working to resist British occupation and drive out the other group as well. Both parties of the conflict included groups more than willing to wipe the other out, and certainly attempting to do so. Even during the Second World War both parties included groups working to resist British occupation and drive out the other group as well. Even today slogans of Kill the Jews or Kill the Arabs are dabbed upon the walls of various buildings across the region, be it the wall of a Settler house or concrete security fence.

As for starting the war – again, this is a one sided appraisal of the conflict. The confrontation between uniformed armies that resulted was just the follow-on phase from the already simmering localised militia actions that were already ongoing throughout the region between Arab groups and Zionist groups. Both parties more than antagonised the other into conflict.

The Palestinians never prooved they want peace, they only prooved they want the total destructure of Israel. Your " give them some land and open the borderes and you will get peacfull people" argument is unbased and could only come from a naive person or a person that dont know the history of Israel. Either one

The Palestinians have proven upon a number of times a desire for peace, and resistance groups have proven upon a number of times no desire other than the destruction of their oppressors. Zionists on the other hand have proven a desire for peaceful negotiation, while also demonstrating a desire to continue the struggle to claim more land via perpetuating the annexing and creation of settlements. Both sides are ultimately fighting over land, the Palestinians fight for the land that their homes are built upon while Zionists fight to reclaim a long lost biblical kingdom that was destroyed by the Romans long before anyone now involved in the conflict was born.

It is certainly naïve to think that simply opening the border crossings will cause the resistance against Israel to cease. It is also naïve to think that if the resistance stoped that Israel would halt its settlement construction. But ultimate if ether side wishes to live in peace in the future, borders will have to be opened, settlements will have to be removed, and attacks (rockets from militants or missiles from the IDF) will have to be ceased from both sides.

The history of this conflict and the history of Israel/Palestine, the land of the Canaanites is bathed in blood from many conflicts stretching back thousands of years. Your simple assessment of the present conflict is unfortunate hollow as it cherry picks rhetoric to only support the history your Zionist Cause seeks to perpetuate.