[RealPolitic]

@Pants-of-dog

@RealPolitic

Israel gains three important things by killing or removing all the Palestinians:

1, Land
2, Resources
3. Security

In that sense, it is logical to commit genocide and/or ethnic cleansing.

Yup, and that's rather unfortunate. But the reality is, human nature is very greedy, self absorbed, selfish, and self interested and this is the outcome. This is, in essence, the reality of international relations where the strong dominate the weak. It is also the reason why states want more power is so they do not fall into the weak category and become a victim of genocide and ethnic cleansing. The powerless also tend to resort to asymmetric guerrilla, and terrorist methods to resist the powerful given they have very little other choice. Its either that or just roll over and be completely wiped away.

[wat0n]

According to the IDF and Israeli government, there can be no security in Israel without a certain amount of killing Palestinians, driving them off their land, and taking it over.

Can you cite them?

[Pants-of-dog]

The current war is predicated on the idea that security can only he achieved by bombing hospitals, refugee camps, evacuee convoys, and humanitarian aid workers.

This is further shown by the encroachment and expansion of settlements.

And finally, we see this same rhetoric about security used in this thread to justify war crimes.

[wat0n]

Again, can you cite them?

The current war is predicated on the idea that Hamas' regime needs to be toppled. Not too different from the war against ISIS and others.

We can also see the usual suspects use their postmodern ideological rhetoric ("decolonization") to justify mass rape and mass murder. It will end badly for them.

[Pants-of-dog]

“For us, the Jordan Valley was and will remain Israel’s eastern security buffer. And security requires settlement,” Avi Gabbay

The whole idea of having a nation-state for Jews (i.e Israel) is to provide security for Jewish people. Ben Gurion said “We must expel the Arabs and take their places…. And, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places- then we have force at our disposal.”

It would be mire correct to claim that many in Israel believe settlements bring security. Whether or not this is true probably depends on how you ask the question.

[wat0n]

“For us, the Jordan Valley was and will remain Israel’s eastern security buffer. And security requires settlement,” Avi Gabbay

Not a minister, and no source either.

The whole idea of having a nation-state for Jews (i.e Israel) is to provide security for Jewish people. Ben Gurion said “We must expel the Arabs and take their places…. And, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places- then we have force at our disposal.”

You mean this letter?

The 1937 Ben-Gurion letter is a letter written by David Ben-Gurion, then head of the executive committee of the Jewish Agency, to his son Amos on 5 October 1937. The letter is well known to scholars[1] as it provides insight into Ben-Gurion's reaction to the report of the Peel Commission released on 7 July of the same year. It has also been subject to significant debate by scholars as a result of scribbled-out text that may or may not provide written evidence of an intention to "expel the Arabs" or "not expel the Arabs" depending on one's interpretation of whether such deletion was intended by Ben-Gurion.

The original handwritten letter is currently held in the IDF Archive.[2]

And this is also a butchering of the quote.

It would be mire correct to claim that many in Israel believe settlements bring security. Whether or not this is true probably depends on how you ask the question.

They are a controversial issue within Israel.

[Pants-of-dog]

“We must establish settlements. We need security forces. We need to settle this land because it’s our land.” In an interview with Arutz Sheva, Israeli communications minister Shlomo Karhi

Also:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/isra ... ts-in-gaza

[wat0n]

His position is not even Netanyahu's position.

I am still waiting for you to provide a source saying the IDF believes settlements guarantee Israel's security.

[Rich]

The current war is predicated on the idea that Hamas' regime needs to be toppled

Look maybe English is not your first language, but you are using the word "topple" in a way that makes no sense. Israel has been hammering away at Hamas for months. Even if they succeeded in completely eradicating Hamas, there action would not have been toppling. It would not be anything close to a toppling action.

[wat0n]

Look maybe English is not your first language, but you are using the word "topple" in a way that makes no sense. Israel has been hammering away at Hamas for months. Even if they succeeded in completely eradicating Hamas, there action would not have been toppling. It would not be anything close to a toppling action.

topple
verb
top·​ple ˈtä-pəl
toppled; toppling ˈtä-p(ə-)liŋ
Synonyms of topple
intransitive verb

: to fall from or as if from being top-heavy
transitive verb

1
: to cause to topple
2
a
: OVERTHROW sense 2
topple a dictator
b
: DEFEAT sense 1

Yup, I'd say that's accurate.

[Pants-of-dog]

Constantly increasing evidence standards are nit an argument.

It seems clear that the idea of settling Gaza is equated with more land, more resources, and more security among high levels of Israeli society.

[wat0n]

It seems @Pants-of-dog was caught, once again, posting unsubstantiated nonsense and he's having a tantrum.

[Pants-of-dog]

Back on topic: There are whole databases of quotes showing Israeli ministers, politicians, thinkers, all advocating for settlements, and the required ethnic cleansing that would precede such settlements.

https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/da ... a-16537146

[wat0n]

It's interesting how we've gone through many of those "quotes" too, including the cherry picking and other forms of misquoting.

[RealPolitic]

@wat0n

Foreign policy by an individual state is determined by the international system and the distribution of power among states. International relations as it stands, for the most part, is basically the law of the jungle. So, in order to survive in this jungle, states and non-state actors have to be smart and know where in the distribution of power they are and work accordingly from that position. If a state has little power in this power distribution in international relations, their foreign policy will be more constrained given they have less power.

There are only two ways to achieve security: through a balance of power or by being the most powerful and the hegemon. It seems Israel, in the region of the Middle East is seeking security by being the regional hegemon but are being challenged by Iran and its proxies such as Hamas for example. States are always worried about each other, always insecure, always guarding against one another. There really are no friends in international relations. The international system is really a system of self help and states cannot 100% count on each other.

Seen through this lens, its easy to see that Israel will seek to settle Gaza and take more land to ensure its security from Iranian proxies such as Hamas. That could amount genocide as @Pants-of-dog pointed out.

[wat0n]

@RealPolitic Israel has little hope of becoming a regional hegemon like... Well, ever. Its population is just too small to even aspire to something like that.

Achieving a balance of power sounds more viable, and indeed it is one reason why Iran actively supports groups like Hamas even though they are not quite aligned ideologically. An Israel that is in perpetual conflict with the Palestinians is an Israel that cannot play any major regional role or publicly ally itself with Iran's most important adversary - Saudi Arabia.

Resettling Gaza would largely go against this strategic goal.

[RealPolitic]

@wat0n

I would argue that Israel IS currently the regional hegemon given it has nuclear weapons and seeks to prevent Iran from acquiring such weapons. I don't see how you can argue that Israel committing settler colonialism does not enhance its security and position of power because it does. It prevents Iran from using proxies like Hamas from inflicting further damage on Israel. But that also means Palestinian culture and people could very well get wiped out in the process. And the Arabs never really cared about the plight of the Palestinians but have used them as pawns for their own power plays in the region.

Wars break out between states when you have a hegemon like Israel and a state like Iran who continues to gain more power and is able to compete and challenge Israel. You see this playing out with power competition between the US and China currently where you have the hegemon, the US and a rising power, China seeking to challenge the US.

This is nothing new throughout history and is commonly referred to as the "Thucydides Trap" in which two states that do not want to go to war with each other, end up going to war with each because you have a power that is rising and challenging the more established power that could also be the hegemon. You see this with Israel and Iran as well as with the United States and China.

[Pants-of-dog]

Israel is also the only country in the region enjoying military aid from the USA.

Israel is trying to be the hegemon, in that respect.

[RealPolitic]

@Pants-of-dog

With the fact that Israel has US military aid and nuclear weapons, I would say it is the hegemon currently with Iran seeking to challenge it with support from Russia, maybe China. I am not sure about China. Israel is trying to maintain its position by going after Iran's nuclear weapons program through sabotage and assassination of Iranian scientists.

[skinster]

The siege and starvation of patients in Shifa hospital continues.


Israelis have been committing attacks on every single part of Gaza's health infrastructure because this is a genocide, in case anyone is confused.

1) The Qassam Brigades' admission they have a Nuseirat battalion

When did they make this admission? I've never seen it and I read basically every single statement that Hamas publish, along with those that come from all of the other resistance factions. I never saw this and quite frankly, given your record, it looks like something you pulled out of your ass.

So, when two states or warring parties are in dispute with each other, its disingenuous to approach the other party from a position of morality. States or warring parties in disputes should approach other and discuss each others interests and come to a meeting of the minds on how to respect each others interests without harming each others interests. Morality doesn't factor into any of this.

What nonsense. This is a war by the world's 4th strongest military power with the backing of all Western powers, including the U.S. empire, against a stateless people who either live under apartheid or in a concentration camp - now a death camp - under the rule of the side that has a state. Morality absolutely factors into this too, which can be seen by masses everywhere on the side of Palestinians.










And there are these protests:


And these:

Israeli citizens with guns in the OPT are issued military fatigues and given protection not shot by the IDF. Since 7 October, the UN Human Rights Office has documented dozens of cases of settlers wearing full or partial Israeli army uniforms and carrying army rifles, and harassing and attacking Palestinians.

This is true. Israeli settlers have done home raids and kidnapped Palestinians living under apartheid in the West Bank, dressed in IDF uniforms and guns that have been given to them by the state, in an area they live illegally and where Palestinians are not allowed to carry guns. Ben-Gvir also celebrated, last week, issuing over 100,000 guns to these fanatical settlers. These settlers kill Palestinians with impunity in that area. This report on those psychos kidnapping and sexually abusing Palestinians is worth listening to, from a well known Palestinian human rights activist, Issa Amro. It details a lot of what life is like living under occupation in the West Bank.

Its coming up to 57 years that Israel has been occupying the West Bank and Gaza. What ever blame may fall on Palestinians for provoking the 6 day war does not apply to the current Palestinian population, The large majority were not born in 1967, most of the rest were children, none held any position of authority.

Miko Peled, whose grandfather signed Israel's declaration of independence in 1948 and whose father was in this 1967 war, has wrote and spoken about that so-called "six day war". It was in fact a five day war and there is much mythology about what happened in that war. Here Miko speaks of the reality of that war. He had access to Israeli archives where he got to read the minutes of meetings by Israeli generals confirming they were eager to make that war happen. I would recommend reading his book of how he turned from Israeli Zionist to a passionate anti-Zionist.

That's not the point! What kind of rubbish have you been thinking? The point is that Israel is stronger, the Palestinians are weaker and elected Hamas to represent them and then Hamas attacked Israel. So, because the Palestinians are weaker, they now have to suffer what they must.

Of course it's true Israel is stronger, but that is because it has the backing of the very powerful West. Because they are weaker they have to suffer?

Also, anything to say about Israel's oppression of Palestinians before Hamas came into existence as a political org? About those four decades of the Israeli boot atop Palestinians before Hamas existed?

Hamas did not take actions that served the best interests of Palestinians. Instead, Hamas took actions that served the best interests of a state actor: Iran.

Bollocks. Hamas achieved a number of its objectives and their popularity, along with all of the other resistance factions, has never been bigger. Hamas managed to bring Gaza back onto the map and destroy Israel's sense of invincibility. They brought the news of, what is now about 9000 Palestinian hostages, many of whom are currently being tortured in Israeli dungeons, to people's attention.

They are not stupid. They expected a savage response from Israelis, after all they have suffered them sporadically since 2008. But they are a liberation force and know others have spent years and lost millions to fight their land, from Vietnam to Algeria. All who have suffered occupation throughout history have resisted and the Palestinians have been doing the same for almost a century.

Hamas is a proxy of Iran and Iran heavily influences Hamas.

Hamas is not a proxy. They are organic guerrilla resistance org against occupation in Palestine. Hamas get arms from Iran and that's good, actually. Israel gets arms and all kind of other support from the most powerful nations in the world. What is your issue with Iran? That they won against imperialists who destroyed their country in 1953? That they support resistance organisations in West Asia suffering imperialism like what they did? Iran has never started any war.

Now, Hamas might have had social programs to help Palestinians but at the end of the day, they never had the best interests of Palestinians at heart at all.

We need to add the clown face emoticon to the list on this website because that would be suitable right about now. Hamas have much popularity in Gaza because they are not willing to roll over and die like some other Palestinian orgs that the West elevates. Who are you to say what Palestinians feel for Hamas? Have you spoke to any Palestinians? Can you a share any reports where Palestinians en masse have said they oppose Hamas?

Nobody gives two shits if the Palestinians have a state. Nope, in international relations, its about INTERESTS and SHARED INTERESTS.

That clown-face emoticon would be good here too.