[noemon]

Yeah right, why would Israel work to undermine the Church if it is adopting a relatively pro-Israel stance?

Because it wasn't actually selling Church property to Israel as you demonstrated, Ireneos was exonarated as you said but had already lost his credibility in the eyes of the flock. The report you submitted is very analytical regarding the dodgy shit going down in Israel trying to wrestle property away from the Church. As I told you, you should read the thing.

The Greek church is the second largest landholder in Israel after the State of Israel, it owns the land the Knesset sits on which is leased(not sold) to Israel. Israel has many a reason to try to undermine the Christian Church in the Holy Land, and it clearly did when it froze her bank accounts and forbade them entry to the country.

[wat0n]

I did, it's based on claims by Palestinians that aren't even proven to be accurate.

You still have to explain, however, why did Israel refuse to recognize Theophilos III and kept recognizing Iraneios instead, if as you suggest the latter was actually willing to lease land owned by the Church to Israelis.

I also find it interesting that suddenly you actually care about what the congregants think of the Patriarch when it comes to land leases, but not when it comes to the ethnic make up to the leadership of the Church.

[noemon]

I don't have to explain anything as I did not suggest any such thing.

You need to explain yourself and your audacity, on trying to apologize for discriminating against the Christian Custodians of the Holy Land.

I don't really care what you find interesting especially when you apologize for discrimination, but your attempt to change the subject is quite cute, your other attempt to deny the conclusions of the report when you have cited the conclusions as evidence and when you brought it forward as evidence in something is quite hilarious and ridiculous. Tragelaphic indeed.

As for the Greek Church being led by Greeks, that is self-explanatory. But if you are interested in understanding the structure of the Church, the Pentarchy and its Ecumenical Synods that decide things in unanimity and the whole shebang, you will find plenty of material online.

What should concern you though is apologizing for Israel discriminating against the Custodians of the Tomb of Jesus Christ.

[wat0n]

I don't have to explain anything as I did not suggest any such thing. :?:

So you think Israel was forcing the Church to sell it land? I somehow doubt so.

You need to explain yourself and your audacity, on trying to apologize for discriminating against the Christian Custodians of the Holy Land.

You still haven't proven that they were being discriminated against. In particular, you haven't shown that Israel's delay in recognizing the new Patriarch was because it was discriminating against it, and indeed as I said Jordan also refused to recognize Theophilos III at some point:

In May 2007, the Government of Jordan revoked its previous recognition of Theophilos III, but on 12 June 2007 the Jordanian cabinet reversed its decision and announced that it is once again officially recognising Theophilos as patriarch.[6] Archbishop Theodosios (Hanna) of Sebastia has also called for a boycott of Theophilos.[7]

I don't really care what you find interesting especially when you apologize for discrimination, but your attempt to change the subject is quite cute, your other attempt to deny the conclusions of the report when you have cited the conclusions as evidence and when you brought it forward as evidence in something is quite hilarious and ridiculous. Tragelaphic indeed.

Sure, it's evidence of how some Palestinian Orthodox regard the Church as racist.

As for the Greek Church being led by Greeks, that is self-explanatory. But if you are interested in understanding the structure of the Church, the Pentarchy and its Ecumenical Synods that decide things in unanimity and the whole shebang, you will find plenty of material online.

Yes, it is self explanatory when you are a Greek supremacist.

What should concern you though is apologizing for Israel discriminating against the Custodians of the Tomb of Jesus Christ.

I don't see why should anyone apologize for that, particularly since Israel recognizes the current Patriarch but also because it is far from clear why did it do so in the first place.

An actual discrimination is denying Orthodox Arabs access to leadership of the Church when its congregants are mostly Arab.

[noemon]

You still haven't proven that they were being discriminated against. In particular, you haven't shown that Israel's delay in recognizing the new Patriarch was because it was discriminating against it, and indeed as I said Jordan also refused to recognize Theophilos III at some point:

Jordan's actions are marginal but in the bottom line completely inconsequential. Israeli actions are not incosequential, Israel froze the bank accounts of the Christian Church in the Holy Land and forbade its member access to the country resulting to them being unable to maintain the Tomb of Jesus Christ. Jordan did not do this, Israel did this.

Sure, it's evidence of how some Palestinian Orthodox regard the Church as racist.

The Palestinian report you brought forward does not make any such argument of the church being racist, it exonerates the Greek Patriarch of allegedly selling land to Israel and it explicitly accuses Israelis for trying to undermine the Church. Dishonesty has limits you know, especially when you brought the thing forward.

I don't see why should anyone apologize for that, particularly since Israel recognizes the current Patriarch but also because it is far from clear why did it do so in the first place.

Well I'm sure you won't mind then if the EU freezes the bank accounts of all Jewish synagogues in Europe cause you know that is nothing really and I'm sure if someone in Europe does that today you will not be screeching "antisemite" from the rooftops.

An actual discrimination is denying Orthodox Arabs access to leadership of the Church when its congregants are mostly Arab.

Noone is denied access to the church, everyone can become a Priest, Monk, whatever and rise through the ranks, as all churches the Greek-orthodox Church has its own protocol, special schools that Bishops need to attend to and so on and forth. If you want to argue that the Greek-Orthodox Church has a racist structure you need to point out which rule, constitution, synod or whatever is racist within its administrative structure instead of simply frothing at the mouth.

As for racism against Christians in Israel aside from institutional racism we also got social racism, Jews spitting on Christians in the Holy Land:

A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.

The clergyman prefered not to lodge a complaint with the police and told an acquaintance that he was used to being spat at by Jews. Many Jerusalem clergy have been subjected to abuse of this kind. For the most part, they ignore it but sometimes they cannot.

On Sunday, a fracas developed when a yeshiva student spat at the cross being carried by the Armenian Archbishop during a procession near the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City. The archbishop's 17th-century cross was broken during the brawl and he slapped the yeshiva student.

Both were questioned by police and the yeshiva student will be brought to trial. The Jerusalem District Court has meanwhile banned the student from approaching the Old City for 75 days.

But the Armenians are far from satisfied by the police action and say this sort of thing has been going on for years. Archbishop Nourhan Manougian says he expects the education minister to say something.

"When there is an attack against Jews anywhere in the world, the Israeli government is incensed, so why when our religion and pride are hurt, don't they take harsher measures?" he asks.

According to Daniel Rossing, former adviser to the Religious Affairs Ministry on Christian affairs and director of a Jerusalem center for Christian-Jewish dialogue, there has been an increase in the number of such incidents recently, "as part of a general atmosphere of lack of tolerance in the country."

Rossing says there are certain common characeristics from the point of view of time and location to the incidents. He points to the fact that there are more incidents in areas where Jews and Christians mingle, such as the Jewish and Armenian quarters of the Old City and the Jaffa Gate.

There are an increased number at certain times of year, such as during the Purim holiday."I know Christians who lock themselves indoors during the entire Purim holiday," he says.

Former adviser to the mayor on Christian affairs, Shmuel Evyatar, describes the situation as "a huge disgrace." He says most of the instigators are yeshiva students studying in the Old City who view the Christian religion with disdain.

"I'm sure the phenomenon would end as soon as rabbis and well-known educators denounce it. In practice, rabbis of yeshivas ignore or even encourage it," he says.

Evyatar says he himself was spat at while walking with a Serbian bishop in the Jewish quarter, near his home. "A group of yeshiva students spat at us and their teacher just stood by and watched."

Jerusalem municipal officials said they are aware of the problem but it has to be dealt with by the police. Shmuel Ben-Ruby, the police spokesman, said they had only two complaints from Christians in the past two years. He said that, in both cases, the culprits were caught and punished.

He said the police deploy an inordinately high number of patrols and special technology in the Old City and its surroundings in an attempt to keep order.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/christians-in-je ... m-1.137099

[wat0n]

Jordan's actions are marginal but in the bottom line completely inconsequential. Israeli actions are not incosequential, Israel froze the bank accounts of the Christian Church in the Holy Land and forbade its member access to the country resulting to them being unable to maintain the Tomb of Jesus Christ. Jordan did not do this, Israel did this.

And yet, their decision to withdraw recognition of the Patriarch does suggest that there was something else going on there. I actually wonder what did the Church do that led the Jordanian government to take that drastic step, and also why did Israel refuse to recognize the new Patriarch right away.

The Palestinian report you brought forward does not make any such argument of the church being racist, it exonerates the Greek Patriarch of allegedly selling land to Israel and it explicitly accuses Israelis for trying to undermine the Church. Dishonesty has limits you know, especially when you brought the thing forward.

RAMALLAH, West Bank — The Greek Orthodox Church in Palestine and Jordan is witnessing a movement akin to an intifada against Patriarch Theophilos III of Jerusalem, Palestine and Jordan over actions that organizers of the movement call “racist and wasteful.”

Also, as for alleged land leasing:

The patriarch's leasing of 71 dunums (16 acres) of land belonging to the Saint Elias Monastery south of Jerusalem to an Israeli company raised the ire of the Orthodox community in Palestine when the deal became public in 2009. In a press conference attended by Al-Monitor on Jan. 5, Central Orthodox Council member Uday Bajali described the move as serving the settlers’ interests, saying, “This deal will besiege the village of Beit Safafa and will allow the expansion of settlements in Jabal Abu Ghneim, Gilo, Givat Hamatos and Kibbutz Ramat Rachel.” Bajali accused the patriarch of “colluding with Israel to divert lands without any oversight,” adding, “Unworthy is he who sells property to Israel, does not serve his flock and contributes to displacing our youths.”

But Hanna Omeira, the head of the Presidential Higher Committee for Church Affairs, told Al-Monitor, “As per legal procedures, the [Palestinian] Authority is keeping abreast of news about the diversion of land in Jaffa Gate and the areas around St. Elias. The latest row against the patriarch was caused by his decision to dismiss Father Christophoros; a decision that we asked the church not to implement, while bolstering coordination with the Jordanian government to study and find solutions to all contentious issues."

Nope.

As for their concrete goals:

According to organizers, the Orthodox movement aims to fulfill their fathers’ battle to rid the patriarchate of “Greek occupation.”

An official from the Central Orthodox Council who wished to remain anonymous told Al-Monitor, “The movement in Palestine and Jordan aims to ultimately and completely restore the Orthodox Church to Arab control, following Greek hegemony thereon since 1534. We must put an end to the racism practiced by the patriarchate against Arabs since the former was taken over by the Greeks 500 years ago, and reform it in a manner that guarantees Arab participation in the management of its affairs and the decision-making process therein.”

According to the Central Orthodox Council, Greek monk Germanos, who headed the patriarchate after the Greek takeover of the latter in 1543, in the 47 years of his rule dismissed all Arab monks from the patriarchate in collaboration with the political authorities involving bribery.

Alif Sabbagh, a member of the Central Orthodox Council in Israel, told Al-Monitor, “The Orthodox movement is methodical and based on a specific future outlook, as part of a long-term strategic plan to reform the Orthodox Church and restore its Arab flock’s right to manage its affairs.”

Well I'm sure you won't mind then if the EU freezes the bank accounts of all Jewish synagogues in Europe.

It all depends on why would these funds be frozen, just like it all depends on why exactly Israel and even Jordan withdrew recognition from the Patriarch.

Noone is denied access to the church, everyone can become a Priest, Monk, whatever and rise through the ranks, as all churches the Greek-orthodox Church has its own protocol, special schools that Bishops need to attend to and so on and forth. If you want to argue that the Greek-Orthodox Church has a racist structure you need to point out which rule, constitution, synod or whatever is racist within its administrative structure is instead of simply frothing at the mouth.

Aaaw, what happened noemon? I mean, you just said that:

The Greek Orthodox Church is not called 'Greek' for no reason, I take it there are numerous Christian churches in the Holy Land for Arabs to join if they don't like the Greek church, there is no compulsion in anything as far as I'm aware of and the only reason the Arabs take issue with the Greeks is because the Greeks are being accused working with the Israelis, not something that you can take issue with. The whole thing is a sham engineered by Israelis to undermine the Church as it is confirmed by the report that you brought forward.

Just like you do not consider Israeli court rulings when debating this issue and simply take the claims on Israeli law by Palestinians and non-Palestinian anti-Zionist who aren't even lawyers for granted, I'll pay you with the same currency and take the claims by Orthodox Palestinian priests for granted as well - at least these priests may actually know about canon law, anyway.

[noemon]

And yet, their decision to withdraw recognition of the Patriarch does suggest that there was something else going on there. I actually wonder what did the Church do that led the Jordanian government to take that drastic step, and also why did Israel refuse to recognize the new Patriarch right away.

Listen nobody cares about a recognition from Israel or Jordan, what I care and what you are being confronted with is that Israel froze the bank accounts of the Christian Church in the Holy Land and forbade its members access to the country resulting to their inability to maintain the Tomb of Jesus Christ.

just like it all depends on why exactly Israel

Here is why, so that Israel blackmails him to:

Bajali accused the patriarch of “colluding with Israel to divert lands without any oversight,” adding, “Unworthy is he who sells property to Israel, does not serve his flock and contributes to displacing our youths.”

And that is why I'm guessing Jordan withdrew its recognition to him later.

I'll pay you with the same currency and take the claims by Orthodox Palestinian priests for granted as well - at least these priests may actually know about canon law, anyway.

a) It's good that you admit to your own intellectual dishonesty when discussing. It's a start.
b) The report you brought forward and which you trust does not make any argument about the Greek Church being racist.
c) The report you brought forward makes an explicit argument of Israelis trying to undermine the Church and wrestle property away from her.
d) The article you brought forward confirms that Israel managed to wrestle that property away, confirming all the accusations against Israel and providing concrete proof regarding its racist actions against Christians in Jerusalem.

Just like you do not consider Israeli court rulings when debating this issue and simply take the claims on Israeli law by Palestinians and non-Palestinian anti-Zionist who aren't even lawyers for granted

I have considered everything, the Israeli court ruling did not enforce any change on institutional racism against non-Jews as it merely told the state to consider whether(verbatim from its decision this is) to allow these 2 people to settle there. It is you who has ignored the Israeli Professor who did a PhD on the subject and whose PhD was published by the Berkeley institute, it was you who misrepresented Mazuz and got caught red-handed. It is you who find the al-Kurd family ordeal as normal stuff, it is you who is trying to justify the discrimination against the Christian Church in order to steal her land. It is you who is throwing insults up in the air because you lack arguments to justify your intellectual nudity. It is you who has refused to even address the Jewish custom of spitting on Christians. All in all you have managed once again to provide cringe-worthy entertainment. Cheers.

You know seriously now you will feel a lot better with yourself if you just be honest, you will feel relieved and at the end of the day Israel will survive without your antics and mental gymnastics. Just my sincere 2 cents.

[wat0n]

Listen nobody cares about a recognition from Israel or Jordan, what I care and what you are being confronted with is that Israel froze the bank accounts of the Christian Church in the Holy Land and forbade its members access to the country resulting to their inability to maintain the Tomb of Jesus Christ.

Funds they cannot use if they are not recognized by the respective governments. It is likely the case with Jordan as well.

Here is why, so that Israel blackmails him to:

And yet the PA says that the crisis is not about property issues and that the Church is acting legally (which is notable since selling property to Israelis is illegal under Palestinian law).

And that is why Jordan withdrew his recognition later.

Source?

a) It's good that you admit your own intellectual dishonesty when discussing. It's a start.

Excuse me? I am simply "debating" like you do.

I actually find it great that you admit that you are being intellectually dishonest in your arguments regarding Israeli law.

b) The report you brought forward and which your trust does not make any argument about the Greek Church being racist.

Except the very first paragraph of the article, you mean.

c) The report you brought forward makes an explicit argument of Israelis trying to undermine the Church and wrestle property away from her.

Actually the article states that, according to these Palestinian Orthodox priests, the Church is leasing property to Israelis on its own volition. In any event, the PA doesn't even seem to agree with this claim and that is not what triggered the more recent protests as stated in the article as well.

If you disagree just quote in verbatim just like I did.

d) The article you brought forward confirms that Israel managed to wrestle that property away, confirming all the accusations against Israel and providing concrete proof regarding its racist actions against Christians in Jerusalem.

Actually the closest it comes to saying anything like that is that the Church leased property south of Jerusalem to an Israeli company.

I have considered everything, the Israeli court ruling did not enforce any change on institutional racism against non-Jews as it merely told the state to consider whether(verbatim from its decision this is) to allow these 2 people to settle there. It is you who has ignored the Israeli Professor who did a PhD on the subject and whose PhD was published by the Berkeley institute, it was you who misrepresented Mazuz and got caught red-handed. It is you who find the al-Kurd family ordeal as normal stuff, it is you who is trying to justify the discrimination against the Christian Church in order to steal her land. It is you who is throwing insults up in the air because you lack arguments to justify your intellectual nudity. All in all you have managed once again to provide cringe-worthy entertainment. Cheers.

Sorry noemon, but I have not distorted Israeli Supreme Court rulings here, you have.

You know seriously now you will feel a lot better with yourself if you just be honest, you will feel relieved and at the end of the day Israel will survive without your antics and mental gymnastics. Just my sincere 2 cents.

I have no reason to feel bad when I actually bothered to read the Court ruling (and all of it).

I actually wonder how strong your cognitive dissonance must be since you simply refuse to consider sources which clearly show your interpretation is incorrect, even reading them in verbatim. The article by al-Monitor is simply the latest example of this behavior of yours.

[noemon]

Funds they cannot use if they are not recognized by the respective governments. It is likely the case with Jordan as well.

Are you saying that Governments around the world freeze the bank accounts of Churches, Synagogues or Mosques arbitrarily if they do not recognize the elected leaders of these churches, synagogues or whatever?
First of all you need to provide proof, second of all I do not see how that justifies anything.

If we freeze the bank accounts of the synagogues in Europe will you or will not be screeching all over the forum about "antisemitism"?

And yet the PA says that the crisis is not about property issues and that the Church is acting legally (which is notable since selling property to Israelis is illegal under Palestinian law).

The PA report says:

The efforts of the Patriarch [Ireneos] to urge the Israeli government to recognize him as Patriarch were prolonged to no avail. Thus, he was forced to resort to Israeli lawyers to represent him before official circles whence he demanded that they issue their decision. When no response was received he petitioned the High Court against the government, demanding that the latter explain the reasons behind the government’s refusal to recognize him as Patriarch of the Holy City. The High Court dismissed this petition when the public prosecutor attributed the delay to on- going investigation of the elected Patriarch’s past, and whether he was involved in criminal cases. Following a lengthy delay, and for lack of any evidence of criminal cases against him as claimed by his opponents, the Israeli government endorsed his election on January 28, 2004.

Theophilos was not the only case that Israel froze the Church's bank accounts, Ireneos had gone exactly through the same ordeal which clearly demonstrates a pattern to blackmail the Custodian of the Holy Sepulcher in Israel to steal their land. And we have yet to hear your condemnation of these racist actions, while at the same time actively crying about your troubles in the Christian middle-ages.

Actually the article states that, according to these Palestinian Orthodox priests, the Church is leasing property to Israelis on its own volition.

Yah man I'm sure being forbidden entry to the country, and having their bank accounts frozen consistently is making them act on their own volition.
Are you actually hearing yourself?

In November 2004, various incidents aroused fears of the Patriarch towards Papadimas. During October and early November 2004, Papadimas tried to convince the Patriarch of the need to accept some of the property offers presented to the Patriarch’s advocate, in order to remedy the deteriorating financial situation at the Patriarchate, and to cover some of the debts and expenses, and pay the overdue salaries. The Patriarch declined all these offers and rejected every possible settlement. Instead, he insisted on approaching the Greek Government for financial help. Against this background, several verbal altercations took place between the Patriarch and Papadimas. Some of these altercations were in the presence of eye witnesses.

One day in November 2004, i.e., ten days before the escape of Papadimas, and while the Patriarch was on his way back to Jerusalem from Tel-Aviv together with a priest in his car, an anonymous car rammed the Patriarch’s car and fled the scene. The Patriarch suspected it was an attempt on his life. A few days later, the Greek Foreign Ministry called the Patriarch and notified him that the Israeli wife of Papadimas was arrested while entering Greece. She was carrying 120.000 Euros and various jewelries. The Ministry enquired if her husband was actually working for the Patriarchate. The Foreign Ministry instructed the Patriarch to seal the treasury and deny Papadimas any access to it. He complied.

In the end somehow by complete magic and of their volition the Patriarchate agreed to these offers from Israeli settlers and then somehow and on its own volition Israel unfroze the Patriarchate's bank accounts and allowed them entry back to the country. Oy vey.

Sorry noemon, but I have not distorted Israeli Supreme Court rulings here, you have.

Evidence of distortion.

Your insults are funny, but you should know better by now that they do not affect me or bother me one single bit. You should also know better that people in here can shift through the crap and your crap are no different.

Excuse me? I am simply "debating" like you do.

At least you admit to your "debating" dishonesty. As I said it's a start, in the next post you might even move further.

[wat0n]

Are you saying that Governments around the world freeze the bank accounts of Churches, Synagogues or Mosques arbitrarily if they do not recognize the elected leaders of these churches, synagogues or whatever?
First of all you need to provide proof, second of all I do not see how that justifies anything.

It's funny that you mention it, but actually Jordan has even more prerogatives than Israel on the matter: Under Jordanian law, the Patriarch must have a Jordanian passport, and it can be denied or taken away by the government if it wants to.

Likewise, I am pretty sure that European governments can freeze the funds of Jewish or Muslims communities under certain circumstances.

If we freeze the bank accounts of the synagogues in Europe will you or will not be screeching all over the forum about "antisemitism"?

That depends on why are they bring frozen, of course.

The PA report says:

I am not sure of what does it have to do with the protests against the current Patriarch. Explain.

Theophilos was not the only case that Israel froze the Churches bank accounts, Ireneos had gone exactly through the same troubles which clearly demonstrates a practice to blackmail Christian in Israel to steal their land.

And in both cases, it seems that the internal divisions of the Church played a key role, according to the report:

Background

Ireneos' path was not paved with roses when he assumed the leadership of the Patriarchate. From the beginning of his election to the post as Patriarch of the Holy City, he found himself engulfed with strong and shrewd opposition and contenders having close contacts with countries, officials and strong politicians in Israel, Jordan, Greece and Russia, etc.

His contenders did not concede his victory and election as a Patriarch. They continued their attacks on him from all directions. They managed to convince the Israeli Government that Ireneos is anti-Semitic and is not comfortable to the Israeli government. No, on the contrary, he was a pro-Palestinian. They reinforced this claim by showing copies of letters and meetings with the late President Yaser Arafat. The refusal of the Israeli government to recognize him after his election impeded him from executing his basic duties as Patriarch.

Note that it does not mention that recognition was withdrawn to force him to sell properties to Israelis.

But maybe I'm missing something?

In the end somehow by complete magic and of their volition the Patriarchate agreed to these offers from Israeli settlers and then somehow and on its own volition Israel unfroze the Patriarchate's bank accounts and allowed them entry back to the country. Oy vey.

Cute, but there is a little problem.with this:

The efforts of the Patriarch to urge the Israeli government to recognize him as Patriarch were prolonged to no avail. Thus, he was forced to resort to Israeli lawyers to represent him before official circles whence he demanded that they issue their decision. When no response was received he petitioned the High Court against the government, demanding that the latter explain the reasons behind the government’s refusal to recognize him as Patriarch of the Holy City. The High Court dismissed this petition when the public prosecutor attributed the delay to on- going investigation of the elected Patriarch’s past, and whether he was involved in criminal cases. Following a lengthy delay, and for lack of any evidence of criminal cases against him as claimed by his opponents, the Israeli government endorsed his election on January 28, 2004.

And yet, all the events mentioned in the report transpired after January 28, 2004.

Yah man I'm sure being forbidden entry to the country, and having their bank accounts frozen consistently is making them act on their own volition.
Are you actually hearing yourself?

Did you even read the article by al-Monitor? The claims deal with events that allegedly occurred after Theophilos III was recognized as Patriarch by the Israeli government. For instance, the leasing of the property in south Jerusalem to an Israeli company allegedly occurred in 2009, 2 years after the Israeli government recognized the Patriarch.

Evidence of distortion.

Refusing to consider the ruling in verbatim? Yep, that's what you've been doing.

Your insults are funny, but you should know better by now that they do not affect me or bother one single bit. You should also know better that people in here can shift through the crap and your crap are no different.

Indeed, I am not the only one who has called you on this.

At least you admit to your "debating" dishonesty. As I said it's a start, in the next post you might even move further.

I am simply giving you your own medicine by only considering the claims by Arab Orthodox, if you consider it dishonest, then maybe you can now realize that this is exactly how everyone else sees your "arguments".

In the meantime, it will still be true that there are pockets within the Arab Orthodox community that consider the leadership of the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem to be racist against them, as per the quoted parts of the al-Monitor's article.

[noemon]

It's funny that you mention it, but actually Jordan has even more prerogatives than Israel on the matter: Under Jordanian law, the Patriarch must have a Jordanian passport, and it can be denied or taken away by the government if it wants to.

You are not answering the question nor making any sense as to why did Israel freeze the bank accounts of the Christian Church in Jerusalem under the leadership of the current Patriarch and the one before him, if one looks further one will probably find more. The pattern of racist discrimination is there though.

Are you saying that Governments around the world freeze the bank accounts of Churches, Synagogues or Mosques arbitrarily if they do not recognize the elected leaders of these churches, synagogues or whatever?
First of all you need to provide proof, second of all I do not see how that justifies anything.

Likewise, I am pretty sure that European governments can freeze the funds of Jewish or Muslims communities under certain circumstances. That depends on why are they bring frozen, of course.

So why did Israel freeze them according to this zionist apologist?

I am not sure of what does it have to do with the protests against the current Patriarch. Explain.

I don't see why I have to explain straws, but my guess is that after the previous Patriarch Ireneos had his life threatened because he refused to lease land to Israeli settlers he probably became a martyr in the eyes of his flock and so various people protested his removal.

Theophilos was not the only case that Israel froze the Churches bank accounts, Ireneos had gone exactly through the same troubles which clearly demonstrates a practice to blackmail Christian in Israel to steal their land.

And in both cases, it seems that the internal divisions of the Church played a key role, according to the report:
Note that it does not mention that recognition was withdrawn to force him to sell properties to Israelis.
But maybe I'm missing something?

In both cases, the leasing of land to Israeli settlers has been the main bone of contention that has caused internal division in the church. Indeed as verified by the report you brought forward. Of course you are lacking eyesight now but it's ok other people do not.

In the end somehow by complete magic and of their volition the Patriarchate agreed to these offers from Israeli settlers and then somehow and on its own volition Israel unfroze the Patriarchate's bank accounts and allowed them entry back to the country. Oy vey.

Cute, but there is a little problem.with this:
And yet, all the events mentioned in the report transpired after January 28, 2004.

Like his car being rammed? Like him being betrayed by a Greek layman married to an Israeli woman because he refused to follow his recommendation on leasing property land? Like his successor eventually agreeing to the lease because his successor was also subject to discrimination, the freezing of the church accounts and the ban of entry?

Did you even read the article by al-Monitor? The claims deal with events that allegedly occurred after Theophilos III was recognized as Patriarch by the Israeli government. For instance, the leasing of the property in south Jerusalem to an Israeli company allegedly occurred in 2009, 2 years after the Israeli government recognized the Patriarch.

Are you telling me that Israelis would make it so obvious as to force him to accept the lease before recognizing him? Is that even possible legally? Do you hear yourself?

Refusing to consider the ruling in verbatim? Yep, that's what you've been doing.

Evidence of distortion, quote me distorting the text of the ruling in any manner. Thanks. If your english is lacking is not my problem, but you still need to provide evidence when accusing people.

I am simply giving you your own medicine by only considering the claims by Arab Orthodox, if you consider it dishonest, then maybe you can now realize that this is exactly how everyone else sees your "arguments".

Well everyone else is free to make whatever conclusions one can make. Your straws, evading and changing the subject as well as utter denial are all quite self-evident and admittedly so by you, so I don't really see what you 're saying here when you admit that you are in fact being dishonest.

In the meantime, it will still be true that there are pockets within the Arab Orthodox community that consider the leadership of the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem to be racist against them, as per the quoted parts of the al-Monitor's article.

Sure people have been upset with all these blackmails and ordeals in Israel caused by Israeli racism and eventual capitulation to Israeli settler demands. Palestinian Arab Christians would rightfully call for someone who would not capitulate, like Ireneos for example and that is why they demonstrated.

[wat0n]

You are not answering the question nor making any sense as to why did Israel freeze the bank accounts of the Christian Church in Jerusalem under the leadership of the current Patriarch and the one before him, if one looks further one will probably find more. The pattern of racist discrimination is there though.

Well, the Palestinian report you obviously did not read (as usual) names one: The opposition to the Patriarchs tried to get the Israeli government to do so. Makes sense since it seems the Church is a complete mess.

I don't see why I have to explain straws, but my guess is that after the previous Patriarch Ireneos had his life threatened because he refused to lease land to Israeli settlers he probably became a martyr in the eyes of his flock and so various people protested his removal.

And yet the Israeli government kept recognizing him as the Patriarch after he was removed. Why?

In both cases, the leasing of land to Israeli settlers has been the main bone of contention that has caused internal division in the church. Indeed as verified by the report you brought forward. Of course you are lacking eyesight now but it's ok other people do not.

Umm? This is what the Palestinian report describes as one of the reasons of why there was opposition to Iraneios at least:

The land of the monasteries, especially the holy places related to the Patriarchate, was either a property or a trust to the appointed head. This has been the practice over the years. The appointment of favorites to head the monasteries or the holy place was a means to buy the appointed archimandrite or bishop. Changing this situation and reorganizing and reforming the status-quo and the imposition of financial control on all monasteries and channeling and recording their revenues to the Patriarchate treasury, was a factor that caused grumbling and dissatisfaction and was a motive for opposing the Patriarch.

Note that this deals with how the Church manages its properties, not with property sales.

Like his car being rammed?

Yes, occurred on November 2004

One day in November 2004, i.e., ten days before the escape of Papadimas, and while the Patriarch was on his way back to Jerusalem from Tel-Aviv together with a priest in his car, an anonymous car rammed the Patriarch’s car and fled the scene. The Patriarch suspected it was an attempt on his life. A few days later, the Greek Foreign Ministry called the Patriarch and notified him that the wife of Papadimas was arrested while entering Greece. She was carrying 120.000 Euros and various jewelries. The Ministry enquired if her husband was actually working for the Patriarchate. The Foreign Ministry instructed the Patriarch to seal the treasury and deny Papadimas any access to it. He complied.

Like him being betrayed by a Greek layman married to an Israeli woman because he refused to follow his recommendation on leasing property land?

Yes, he was given powers on May 2004.

Remarkably, the annulment document contained a declaration from the Patriarch to the effect that he revokes the power of Attorney he gave to Papadimas on May 6, 2004, and which he signed at the time before the Notary Public Yakoub Miron.

Like his successor eventually agreeing to the lease because his successor was also subject to discrimination, the freezing of the church accounts and the ban of entry?

When did his successor agree to the lease?

Are you telling me that Israelis would make it so obvious as to force him to accept the lease before recognizing him? Is that even possible legally? Do you hear yourself?

He sure took his time if you are correct. Unfortunately for you, this is just a conspiracy theory.

Evidence of distortion, quote me distorting the text of the ruling in any manner. Thanks. If your english is lacking is not my problem, but you still need to provide evidence when accusing people.

I already did, I quoted the complete paragraph 40 from the ruling rather than just letter B. The parts you left out completely negate your claims.

Well everyone else is free to make whatever conclusions one can make. Your straws, evading and changing the subject as well as utter denial are all quite self-evident and admittedly so by you, so I don't really see what you 're saying here when you admit that you are in fact being dishonest.

Are you done with your tantrum? I think I addressed all of these claims quite nicely.

Sure people have been upset with all these blackmails and ordeals in Israel caused by Israeli racism and eventual capitulation to Israeli settler demands. Palestinian Arab Christians would rightfully call for someone who would not capitulate, like Ireneos for example and that is why they demonstrated.

The same one whose head they were demanding on 2005? Come on, this is nonsense.

So far it seems you blame Israel for the internal issues of the Church. Pathetic.

[noemon]

Well, the Palestinian report you obviously did not read (as usual) names one: The opposition to the Patriarchs tried to get the Israeli government to do so. Makes sense since it seems the Church is a complete mess.

A Christian Church whose bank accounts get frozen for half the years of the previous decade at the whims of Israel, can only be a mess and of course that is how Israel and you acting as its troll keeps trying to undermine it because well it is the second largest land-holder in Israel and it does own the land the Knesset sits on. This ancient organization drawing its succession from Jesus himself, is more ancient than any Jewish synagogue or Christian Church anywhere in the planet, it is a lot more organized, durable and persevering than you think and it merely rents its property to Israelis. I can understand Jewish nationalists having issues with it as it makes them feel like tenants, which is exactly what the Israeli parliament is itself, a tenant on land owned by the Church.

And yet the Israeli government kept recognizing him as the Patriarch after he was removed. Why?

Because that was effectively blackmailing his successor, was keeping the accounts of the church frozen thus pressuring the new one to lease land to settlers which he eventually did.

Umm? This is what the Palestinian report describes as one of the reasons of why there was opposition to Iraneios at least

Ummm, the reason the report exists in the first place is to establish whether Ireneos had willingly leased land to Israeli settlers and he was found innocent by Palestinians.

He sure took his time if you are correct.

Patriarch Theophilos concluded the lease of church property to Israeli settlers once he was able to since without him being recognised obviously he could not do that during his non-recognition as you claimed, but once again you 're distorting and misrepresenting the facts:

The patriarch's leasing of 71 dunums (16 acres) of land belonging to the Saint Elias Monastery south of Jerusalem to an Israeli company raised the ire of the Orthodox community in Palestine when the deal became public in 2009.

Doesn't look like anybody had to take much time especially when one considers that to conclude a lease, it takes about 6 months to conclude the paperwork if you 're lucky, and especially within a church structure.

I already did, I quoted the complete paragraph 40 from the ruling rather than just letter B. The parts you left out completely negate your claims.

Darling, distortion means distorting something, changing its meaning, I have not distorted nor denied anything from the court ruling. The court ruling very explicitly recommends to the State of Israel to consider whether it can allow 2 Israeli Muslims to settle in a new exclusively Jewish neighborhood.
You are begging me to state that because of this ruling Israel is not racist when it comes to land management, but this does not follow, in fact the court itself admits that Israel is racist when it comes to land management. This is further verified by an Israeli professor, by the Israel Land Authority wiki article, by the al-Kurd family case, by the UN, the European Parliament and by the ordeals that Christians Churches like the Greek-Orthodox church have to face in Israel. I really don't get what your expectations are here.

I think I addressed all of these claims quite nicely.

Well you 're free to think whatever you want, but in actual fact you have brought all these reports in here that have dug your own hole and you have changed the subject resulting in a bigger hole for you.

So far it seems you blame Israel for the internal issues of the Church. Pathetic.

The report & article you brought in here accuses Israelis for trying and succeeding to wrestle land from the Church directly causing the internal issues of the Church and you have yet to provide a single just reason as to why Israel consistently freezes the church's bank accounts in order to exercise blackmail to the Christian Leadership in the Holy Land.

[wat0n]

A Christian Church whose bank accounts get frozen for half the years of the previous decade at the whims of Israel, can only be a mess and of course that is how Israel and you acting as its troll keeps trying to undermine it because well it is the second largest land-holder in Israel and it does own the land the Knesset sits on. This ancient organization drawing its succession from Jesus himself, is more ancient than any Jewish synagogue or Christian Church anywhere in the planet, it is a lot more organized, durable and persevering than you think and it merely rents its property to Israelis. I can understand Jewish nationalists having issues with it as it makes them feel like tenants, which is exactly what the Israeli parliament is itself, a tenant on land owned by the Church.

Aaw how cute, blaming others for the misgivings of the Church. Unfortunately, from the PA's report:

In the course of this investigation, we got information that shows and reflects the general position of the Patriarchate. We also got information about previous deals carried out during the 1990s and prior to that. Our attention was drawn in particular, to the organizational and administrative situation in the Patriarchate. This situation reflects a negative image manifested in deeply rooted chaos and corruption. This makes it imperative upon the incumbents to take immediate action to put an end to this deplorable situation. We would not have touched upon this internal issue, had it not been one of the reasons that led to the case in question.

Even the PA is saying that the Church is a complete mess, and no, it is a mess because of its own practices and corruption.

Because that was effectively blackmailing his successor, was keeping the accounts of the church frozen thus pressuring the new one to lease land to settlers which he eventually did.

It was blackmailing his successor by insisting on recognizing one that refused to sell, or lease, land to Israelis? Nonsense.

Ummm, the reason the report exists in the first place is to establish whether Ireneos had willingly leased land to Israeli settlers and he was found innocent by Palestinians.

So what? The internal conflicts within the Church are definitely matter to consider in the analysis of what happened. Doing so provides context.

Patriarch Theophilos concluded the lease of church property to Israeli settlers once he was able to since without him being recognised obviously he could not do that during his non-recognition as you claimed, but once again you 're distorting and misrepresenting the facts:

When was the deal signed?

Doesn't look like anybody had to take much time especially when one considers that to conclude a lease, it takes about 6 months to conclude the paperwork if you 're lucky, and especially within a church structure.

But by the time the paperwork is signed, the existence of the deal will have been made public to the leadership of the rest of the Church since the Patriarch's actions would have been known by the Synod (as he is obliged under the law to get its blessing before conducting land deals). That means that he, the poor innocent Patriarch blackmailed by the big and mean Israelis, may have still taken a year to sign it under the scenario you mention.

Another problem with your theory lies in Jordan's behavior. Why did Jordan refuse to recognize Theophilos III as well? Certainly the Jordanians must have had a problem with the Church as well to take the drastic step of recognizing him and then withholding it. Furthermore, whatever problem that was seems to have been solved quickly, which makes sense as the Patriarch must have a Jordanian passport to be able to exercise his functions under Jordanian law.

Darling, distortion means distorting something, changing its meaning, I have not distorted nor denied anything from the court ruling. The court ruling very explicitly recommends to the State of Israel to consider whether it can allow 2 Israeli Muslims to settle in a new exclusively Jewish neighborhood.
You are begging me to state that because of this ruling Israel is not racist when it comes to land management, but this does not follow, in fact the court itself admits that Israel is racist when it comes to land management. This is further verified by an Israeli professor, by the Israel Land Authority wiki article, by the al-Kurd family case, by the UN, the European Parliament and by the ordeals that Christians Churches like the Greek-Orthodox church have to face in Israel. I really don't get what your expectations are here.

One way to distort is to selectively read from the sources in a way that doing so changes their meaning. That's exactly what you did with regards to the Israeli Supreme Court ruling.

[noemon]

Aaw how cute, blaming others for the misgivings of the Church. Unfortunately, from the PA's report:

Even the PA is saying that the Church is a complete mess, and no, it is a mess because of its own practices and corruption.

Let me guess this straight, you a zionist apologist is accusing the Holy Custodians of the Tomb of Jesus of corruption(quoting a PA report) for leasing land to Israel while at the same time justifying the institutional blackmail that the State of Israel imposed on the Church by freezing its bank accounts and forbidding its leadership to enter the country in order to effect said corruption.

When you thought you 've heard it all.

It was blackmailing his successor by insisting on recognizing one that refused to sell, or lease, land to Israelis?

Of course a deposed Patriarch confirmed by the Ecumenical Synod of Constantinople cannot ever resume office regardless of Israeli recognition to him. That is a fact. Israel was not trying to save the deposed one, it was discriminating against the Elected one in order to blackmail him to hand over property which he did as soon he got into office. Israel had put the deposed one through the exact same ordeal and that is why the Palestinians protested and demonstrated in favour of the deposed one, who also had his car rammed and his life threatened because he refused to lease the land to Israeli settlers.

This is all quite surreal mad max stuff you 're trying to justify here dude. You need to take a step back and look at yourself.
Can you imagine shit like that happening to Jews in Europe by the European and Christian authorities today? Can you imagine yourself reacting? Do that for a second, take a deep breath and then come back here.

So what? The internal conflicts within the Church are definitely matter to consider in the analysis of what happened. Doing so provides context.

Other than giving you a straw a straw to suck on in order to run away it does absolutely no such thing, see paragraph 1 in this post.

When was the deal signed? That means that he, the poor innocent Patriarch blackmailed by the big and mean Israelis, may have still taken a year to sign it under the scenario you mention.

You tell me, but between December 16 2007 and April 2009 that the concluded deal became public in the news that is 15 months for the deal to conclude and become public to the Palestinians. Are you going to count the months to try your luck with another straw?
I'm really eager to see you performing your gymnastics yet again.

Another problem with your theory lies in Jordan's behavior.

Does the plastic from the straw taste nice in your mouth? I'm curious.

One way to distort is to selectively read from the sources in a way that doing so changes their meaning. That's exactly what you did with regards to the Israeli Supreme Court ruling.

So you admit that I have not distorted any text from the court, indeed I have not, the fact is that the court ruling has been very clear and you have absolutely no logical argument to sustain your denial especially when you ignore the question as well as all these stuff you quoted:

Darling, distortion means distorting something, changing its meaning, I have not distorted nor denied anything from the court ruling. The court ruling very explicitly recommends to the State of Israel to consider whether it can allow 2 Israeli Muslims to settle in a new exclusively Jewish neighborhood.
You are begging me to state that because of this ruling Israel is not racist when it comes to land management, but this does not follow, in fact the court itself admits that Israel is racist when it comes to land management. This is further verified by an Israeli professor, by the Israel Land Authority wiki article, by the al-Kurd family case, by the UN, the European Parliament and by the ordeals that Christians Churches like the Greek-Orthodox church have to face in Israel. I really don't get what your expectations are here.

What is your expectation? Can you frame it in a sensical sentence?

[wat0n]

Let me guess this straight, you a zionist apologist is accusing the Holy Custodians of the Tomb of Jesus of corruption(quoting a PA report) for leasing land to Israel while at the same time justifying the institutional blackmail that the State of Israel imposed on the Church by freezing its bank accounts and forbidding its leadership to enter the country in order to effect said corruption.

When you thought you 've heard it all.

It's not my fault that non-Zionists like the PA reached that conclusion. They could have accused Israel of blackmailing the Church, but they did not, which is notable in itself.

Of course a deposed Patriarch confirmed by the Ecumenical Synod of Constantinople cannot ever resume office regardless of Israeli recognition to him. That is a fact. Israel was not trying to save the deposed one, it was discriminating against the Elected one in order to blackmail him to hand over property which he did as soon he got into office. Israel had put the deposed one through the exact same ordeal and that is why the Palestinians protested and demonstrated in favour of the deposed one, who also had his car rammed and his life threatened because he refused to lease the land to Israeli settlers.

Ummm? The Palestinians demonstrated against the deposed one over the allegations that he sold Church property to Israelis, that's one of the things that brought his downfall.

The rest is more of your inventions, just like the expulsion of Greeks from Spain.

This is all quite surreal mad max stuff you 're trying to justify here dude. You need to take a step back and look at yourself.
Can you imagine shit like that happening to Jews in Europe by the European and Christian authorities today? Can you imagine yourself reacting? Do that for a second, take a deep breath and then come back here.

Actually, I can imagine myself reacting to that, and would depend a lot on the reasons for freezing their accounts. I would most certainly not claim they are being blackmailed by European governments if their own congregants were complaining about corruption, even more so if the accounts were frozen because of a lawsuit initiated by one of them against their community.

In this case, there were those within the Church who were trying to topple the Patriarch and there are also those within the Church who want to see the current Patriarch gone as well.

Other than giving you a straw a straw to suck on in order to run away it does absolutely no such thing, see paragraph 1 in this post.

Not really, your refusal to consider other options due to your belief in a moral and cultural superiority over Jews is not unexpected however.

You tell me, but between December 16 2007 and April 2009 that the concluded deal became public in the news that is 15 months for the deal to conclude and become public to the Palestinians. Are you going to count the months to try your luck with another straw?
I'm really eager to see you performing your gymnastics yet again.

So the deal could have been signed some 10 months after the Patriarch was recognized. This proves what, exactly?

You have provided absolutely zero evidence that Israel was blackmailing either Patriarch, in the case of Iraneios not even the PA believes this was the case. Why should I take your claims for granted?

Does the plastic from the straw taste nice in your mouth? I'm curious.

So now you disregard Jordan's behavior for no reason.

So you admit that I have not distorted any text from the court, indeed I have not, the fact is that the court ruling has been very clear and you have absolutely no logical argument to sustain your denial especially when you ignore the question as well as all these stuff you quoted:

I said explicitly you distorted the meaning of the Court ruling by selectively quoting from it.

A clear cut example of intellectual dishonesty if there was one.

[noemon]

It's not my fault that non-Zionists like the PA reached that conclusion. They could have accused Israel of blackmailing the Church, but they did not, which is notable in itself. Ummm? The Palestinians demonstrated against the deposed one over the allegations that he sold Church property to Israelis, that's one of the things that brought his downfall. The rest is more of your inventions.

The PA report was conduced to ascertain whether the Church and Ireneos more particularly did something wrong and its conclusion is that they did not. It's conclusions were that Israelis purposely discriminated against the Church in order to steal her land. I know you have already admitted that you are being dishonest but you are breaking new records every time.

Actually, I can imagine myself reacting to that, and would depend a lot on the reasons for freezing their accounts. I would most certainly not claim they are being blackmailed by European governments if their own congregants were complaining about corruption, even more so if the accounts were frozen because of a lawsuit initiated by one of them against their community.
You have provided absolutely zero evidence that Israel was blackmailing either Patriarch, in the case of Iraneios not even the PA believes this was the case. Why should I take your claims for granted?

You brought the report here which says as much and you are begging me to consider your fantasies when you have admitted that your fantasies are dishonest.
The State of Israel froze the accounts of the Christian Church to blackmail the Church and it managed to get what it wanted in the end. It's good to know that you take no issue with that and will be used against you every single time in the future.

The State of Israel never provided a reason for the freezing of the Church's accounts:

The efforts of the Patriarch [Ireneos] to urge the Israeli government to recognize him as Patriarch were prolonged to no avail. Thus, he was forced to resort to Israeli lawyers to represent him before official circles whence he demanded that they issue their decision. When no response was received he petitioned the High Court against the government, demanding that the latter explain the reasons behind the government’s refusal to recognize him as Patriarch of the Holy City. The High Court dismissed this petition when the public prosecutor attributed the delay to on- going investigation of the elected Patriarch’s past, and whether he was involved in criminal cases. Following a lengthy delay, and for lack of any evidence of criminal cases against him as claimed by his opponents, the Israeli government endorsed his election on January 28, 2004.

So I take it, it is absolutely fine for us in Europe to freeze all synagogue bank accounts until all our High Courts ascertain that no rabbi has ever had a criminal record, in lots of countries this can take up to 15 years. It's good to know that an apologist like you takes no absolutely no issue with that.

I said explicitly you distorted the meaning of the Court ruling by selectively quoting from it.
A clear cut example of intellectual dishonesty if there was one.

You also said that you are in fact dishonest.

I am still waiting from you to answer this simple question:

What is your expectation? Can you frame it in a sensical sentence?

[wat0n]

The PA report was conduced to ascertain whether the Church and Ireneos more particularly did something wrong and its conclusion is that they did not. It's conclusions were that Israelis purposely discriminated against the Church in order to steal her land.

Please provide a quote of this. And I mean that the Israeli government refused to recognize him as Patriarch to get him to sell land to Israelis.

I know you have already admitted that you are being dishonest but you are breaking new records every time.

I am not the one making shit up here.

You brought the report here which says as much and you are begging me to consider your fantasies when you have admitted that your fantasies are dishonest.
The State of Israel froze the accounts of the Christian Church to blackmail the Church and it managed to get what it wanted in the end. It's good to know that you take no issue with that and will be used against you every single time in the future.

The State of Israel never provided a reason for the freezing of the Church's accounts:

The efforts of the Patriarch [Ireneos] to urge the Israeli government to recognize him as Patriarch were prolonged to no avail. Thus, he was forced to resort to Israeli lawyers to represent him before official circles whence he demanded that they issue their decision. When no response was received he petitioned the High Court against the government, demanding that the latter explain the reasons behind the government’s refusal to recognize him as Patriarch of the Holy City. The High Court dismissed this petition when the public prosecutor attributed the delay to on- going investigation of the elected Patriarch’s past, and whether he was involved in criminal cases. Following a lengthy delay, and for lack of any evidence of criminal cases against him as claimed by his opponents, the Israeli government endorsed his election on January 28, 2004.

Ironically, the very paragraph has the answer by the Israeli State of why it didn't recognize Iraneios as Patriarch immediately: There was an ongoing investigation on his past and possible involvement in criminal cases. Why was such an investigation carried out? Because, according to the very same paragraph you quoted, his opponents claimed he engaged in criminal behavior, and thus an inquiry was opened - as stated in the underlined sentence of the paragraph.

So I take it, it is absolutely fine for us in Europe to freeze all synagogue bank accounts until all our High Courts ascertain that no rabbi has ever had a criminal record, in lots of countries this can take up to 15 years. It's good to know that an apologist like you takes no absolutely no issue with that.

If someone within the Jewish community filed a complaint claiming that a major Rabbi has committed a crime, I doubt there would be any accusations of European racism (except, maybe, some by the Rabbi being investigated and his followers) if the community's accounts were frozen as part of an inquiry.

You also said that you are in fact dishonest.

I am still waiting from you to answer this simple question:

I expect you to actually read the sources provided here, as opposed to selectively reading the paragraphs you quoted yourself, and also expect you to quote me in verbatim.

Not doing so would suggest you are unwilling to be intellectually honest or that your reading comprehension is very poor and thus your judgment cannot be trusted. You choose.

[noemon]

Please provide a quote of this.

Already have:

The efforts of the Patriarch [Ireneos] to urge the Israeli government to recognize him as Patriarch were prolonged to no avail. Thus, he was forced to resort to Israeli lawyers to represent him before official circles whence he demanded that they issue their decision. When no response was received he petitioned the High Court against the government, demanding that the latter explain the reasons behind the government’s refusal to recognize him as Patriarch of the Holy City. The High Court dismissed this petition when the public prosecutor attributed the delay to on- going investigation of the elected Patriarch’s past, and whether he was involved in criminal cases. Following a lengthy delay, and for lack of any evidence of criminal cases against him as claimed by his opponents, the Israeli government endorsed his election on January 28, 2004.

In November 2004, various incidents aroused fears of the Patriarch towards Papadimas. During October and early November 2004, Papadimas tried to convince the Patriarch of the need to accept some of the property offers presented to the Patriarch’s advocate, in order to remedy the deteriorating financial situation at the Patriarchate, and to cover some of the debts and expenses, and pay the overdue salaries. The Patriarch declined all these offers and rejected every possible settlement. Instead, he insisted on approaching the Greek Government for financial help. Against this background, several verbal altercations took place between the Patriarch and Papadimas. Some of these altercations were in the presence of eye witnesses.

One day in November 2004, i.e., ten days before the escape of Papadimas, and while the Patriarch was on his way back to Jerusalem from Tel-Aviv together with a priest in his car, an anonymous car rammed the Patriarch’s car and fled the scene. The Patriarch suspected it was an attempt on his life. A few days later, the Greek Foreign Ministry called the Patriarch and notified him that the Israeli wife of Papadimas was arrested while entering Greece. She was carrying 120.000 Euros and various jewelries. The Ministry enquired if her husband was actually working for the Patriarchate. The Foreign Ministry instructed the Patriarch to seal the treasury and deny Papadimas any access to it. He complied.

His successor is being accused for complying with these Israeli demands since his successor was also subject to criminal abuse. An abuse which you find completely rational by the way.

Why was such an investigation carried out? Because, according to the very same paragraph you quoted, his opponents claimed he engaged in criminal behavior, and thus an inquiry was opened - as stated in the underlined sentence of the paragraph.

All Jewish rabbis in Europe have numerous opponents like the Arabs that accuse them of the same thing. Europeans generally trust the Jews to be able to appoint their own leaders without interference, but since you think otherwise I believe it would be prudent if we revoked the bank accounts of all Jewish synagogues in Europe until we ascertain for sure that none of them have been involved in any criminal activities. There are at least 5-7 courts to pass through and this process can last between 2-15 years. It is good to know that you take no issue with that because with all these opponents of Jews in Europe you never know what might happen.

Not that I would ever justify such a thing but it's good to know that you a zionist apologist do.

If someone within the Jewish community filed a complaint claiming that a major Rabbi has committed a crime

Which Orthodox person pressed charges against the Patriarch in Israel? Name and proof.

I expect you to actually read the sources provided here

I am sincerely asking you to answer me what do you want me to say regarding Israeli racism in land management? Just tell me and I will honestly take your opinion seriously. Be explicit.

[wat0n]

Already have:

His successor is being accused for complying with these Israeli demands since his successor was also subject to criminal abuse. An abuse which you find completely rational by the way.

More conspiracy theories that have been addressed.

Try to bring actual evidence rather than your silly theories. As I said, it is noteworthy that not even the PA claimed Israel blackmailed the Church.

All Jewish rabbis in Europe have numerous opponents like the Arabs that accuse them of the same thing. Europeans generally trust the Jews to be able to appoint their own leaders without interference, but since you think otherwise I believe it would be prudent if we revoked the bank accounts of all Jewish synagogues in Europe until we ascertain for sure that none of them have been involved in any criminal activities. There are at least 5-7 courts to pass through and this process can last between 2-15 years. It is good to know that you take no issue with that because with all these opponents of Jews in Europe you never know what might happen.

Not that I would ever justify such a thing but it's good to know that you a zionist apologist do.

Excuse me? The opponent's of the Patriarch are within the Church itself, not outside it.

The right analogy would be that a Rabbi would claim the community's Chief Rabbi committed a crime and that a criminal investigation would be launched by European prosecutors to see if this is the case. I somehow doubt this would be seen as particularly antisemitic by the vast majority of observers, indeed, most would say that the community is a mess.

Which Orthodox person pressed charges against the Patriarch in Israel? Name and proof.

You'll have to mail the authors of the report to get names, but it does state clearly that the opponents of the Patriarch Iraneios were part of the Church.

I am sincerely asking you to answer me what do you want me to say regarding Israeli racism in land management? Just tell me and I will honestly take your opinion seriously. Be explicit.

Asked and answered already, you have yet to show some intellectual honesty and actually read the sources provided.