[redcarpet]

'Private individual’ arranged meeting between Israeli-Palestinian negotiators, U.S. not updated
Palestinians say no new Israeli position presented at secret Amman meeting between Interior Minister Silvan Shalom and chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat.

Haaretz

A private individual who holds no official position in the Israeli government acted as a middleman in preparing for last Thursday’s meeting between Interior Minister Silvan Shalom and chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat, Haaretz has learned.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas were aware of talks about the meeting and approved it. Senior officials in the Jordanian government and the European Union were also involved. The United States, however, was kept in the dark and Israel did not update the Americans before or after the meeting took place.

Talks about holding the meeting began a few weeks after the government was formed in May and Shalom was given responsibility for negotiating with the Palestinians. The private individual knows both Shalom and Erekat, suggested organizing the meeting and passed messages between the sides.

At a certain stage European Union envoy Fernando Gentilini tried to coordinate between the sides and even suggested the meeting be held in Brussels, however Erekat asked that it be held in Amman, Jordan, which brought the Jordanian government into the secret. Erekat did not present any preconditions for holding the meeting, beyond that it be held at a neutral venue.

Nothing might come out of it, but we'll see what happens

[GandalfTheGrey]

One has to admire Saeb Erekat, he's been banging his head against the wall for years now.

While I have been openly cynical of both sides of the negotiations, I do believe this is a function of the wider political games that hamstring the negotiators on both sides. But at the individual negotiator level, I do believe that there are people who are genuinely sincere about a viable outcome. And as we saw at the 2001 Taba negotiations, its when the negotiators act on their own accord - not attached to either sides political masters - that we see the most progress. If this is indeed the start of negotiations that are not "owned" by either political leaders, then it may well be a positive sign.

[oscar]

There is no peace deal without an Arab East Jerusalem which the Zionists will not allow.

The West Bank Palestinians might be better off pressing for full Israeli citizenship with equal rights to other Israelis while screaming Israel is an Apartheid state until they get that citizenship. Israel cannot allow this for demographic reasons (potential future muslim majority in "Jewish" democracy).

Interesting conundrum for Israel in the West Bank. Maybe they are simply waiting for the global "diplomatic climate" to change sufficiently to allow mass deportation of West Bank Palestinians to other Arab states. More likely they have buried their heads in the sand avoiding the problem of what to do with a "demographic time bomb" living within the "Greater Israel" if they keep avoiding the two state solution.

[layman]

Arab East Jerusalem

Totally absurd and until they give this up there is no hope.

[KlassWar]

The West Bank Palestinians might be better off pressing for full Israeli citizenship with equal rights to other Israelis while screaming Israel is an Apartheid state until they get that citizenship. Israel cannot allow this for demographic reasons (potential future muslim majority in "Jewish" democracy).

That'd certainly be a persuasive argument: Israel has effectively annexed the West Bank, and international law demands that the population in annexed territories be given citizenship... Obviously the Zionists can't accept that, they'd probably rather accept an independent Palestine.

Interesting conundrum for Israel in the West Bank. Maybe they are simply waiting for the global "diplomatic climate" to change sufficiently to allow mass deportation of West Bank Palestinians to other Arab states. More likely they have buried their heads in the sand avoiding the problem of what to do with a "demographic time bomb" living within the "Greater Israel" if they keep avoiding the two state solution.

They're probably burying their head in the sand about demographics: In the long run, if you want to run an ethnic State annexing your more populous neighbors is a fucktarded idea.

[wat0n]

...Which is why settlement construction is, for the most part, limited to areas that might be swapped under a peace deal. The Israelis are not stupid.

As for Jerusalem, Olmert actually offered to divide it following ethnorreligious line and keeping a special arrangement for the Old City in 2008 so I can perfectly see Israel accepting to divide it, eventually.

[oscar]

...Which is why settlement construction is, for the most part, limited to areas that might be swapped under a peace deal. The Israelis are not stupid.

As for Jerusalem, Olmert actually offered to divide it following ethnorreligious line and keeping a special arrangement for the Old City in 2008 so I can perfectly see Israel accepting to divide it, eventually.

Netanyahoo et al have declared ALL of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. No nonsense or negotiations about shared "ownership". This is the huge sticking point.

[wat0n]

Netanyahu won't be PM forever, his antecessor had no qualms on offering a divided Jerusalem and I would hardly say Olmert isn't a Zionist.

[skinster]

Netanyahoo et al have declared ALL of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. No nonsense or negotiations about shared "ownership".

Indeed.

But still, hasbarists will hasbara.

[Harmattan]

Nothing might come out of it, but we'll see what happens

Nothing will come of it, I will see no peace agreement before I die.

a) The Palestinian negotiator does not represent all Palestinian stakeholders. The Hamas is not represented, it does not desire peace, and its words cannot be trusted.

b) Israel's govt does not desire peace since they are fine with the situation as it is: every year they annex new territories, every year the Palestinians are more and more concentrated in a few areas, and private Israeli groups started evicting Arabs from East Jerusalem through economical and juridical means. It will take them decades but Palestine will be shrinked to a very small territory and most of Arabs will be concentrated there. This will still leave the demographic and territorial clustering problem but then they will set up another "peaceful" solutions to this: Arabs could be encouraged to move to other territories that would then be declared independent by Israel, or they could be invited to forfeit their Israeli citizenship. In both cases offering them a house elsewhere and a lump of money could do the trick, especially when coupled with a harsher embargo on the territory where they are not wanted.

For decades Israel has been performing this ethnic cleansing without shedding blood. Well, not too much blood at least, according to NATO and the UN. They're patient. This will take them one century but they will annex the whole of Palestine, or almost, and make it a Jewish land. Peace is not what they want. Some do - many do - but I doubt their views can ever prevail.

[skinster]

For decades Israel has been performing this ethnic cleansing without shedding blood.

I guess you missed out on the mowing the lawn sessions AKA op ethnic cleaning, that Israel indulges in every few years.

[Harmattan]

I guess you missed out on the mowing the lawn sessions AKA op ethnic cleaning, that Israel indulges in every few years.

I was obviously sarcastic and I did allude to those violent episodes in the sentence after the one you quoted.

Yet the main characteristic of the Israeli strategy is how few murders their ethnic cleansing involves comparatively to similar operations: only a thousand of deaths a year to tame millions of Palestinians. They even demonstrate some ethic in their domination! They always take care to not kill too much people, not just because the international community would be forced to react (it prefers to look away), but also because those blood baths create a turmoil in Israel itself. Nowhere are Western values so perverted.

And you're wrong to claim that those episodes are ethnic cleansing. For the start they do not occur in territories that Israel want to annex. Instead they are whiplashes: Israel is like the slaver who whips his slaves from time to time to keep them under submission. Typical of colonialism.

The true faces of the Israeli ethnic cleansing in Israel are the policeman, the judge, and the businessman. The soldier only whips once in a while to make sure that the other three are free to do their stuff. And Israel has plenty of teenagers who are eager to whip.

[skinster]

And you're wrong to claim that those episodes are ethnic cleansing. For the start they do not occur in territories that Israel want to annex.

You don't believe Israel wants Gaza along with the rest of the Palestinian territory?

[Harmattan]

You don't believe Israel wants Gaza along with the rest of the Palestinian territory?

No.

Their army certainly dreams of adding those six more kilometers between Jerusalem and the Egyptian border, but this simply does not seem politically feasible. Gaza rather looks like the future perimeter of the Palestinian territory where Arabs will be stockpiled. Maybe also with Ramallah but probably not.

I guess that Israel will simply steal a few meters here and there every year, as part of a military buffer against invasions. After decades this could amount to a non-negligible fraction of the strip, but still just a fraction of it.

[demima]

Just out of curiosity, (new to I/P conflict discussion), Israel has a population of 8.2m people and its population density is not too high. Why is there a need to build settlements in the West Bank? Is much of the land in Israel now unsuitable for habitation (desserts, mountains etc), or is it a case that the settlers are religiously motivated in moving into areas that they deem belongs to them historically.

[layman]

Israel has a population of 8.2m people and its population density is not too high. Why is there a need to build settlements in the West Bank?

Ethnic cleansing, mainly for their own security.

[redcarpet]

Just out of curiosity, (new to I/P conflict discussion), Israel has a population of 8.2m people and its population density is not too high. Why is there a need to build settlements in the West Bank? Is much of the land in Israel now unsuitable for habitation (desserts, mountains etc), or is it a case that the settlers are religiously motivated in moving into areas that they deem belongs to them historically.

Not just that, I think, as a sort of raw political reason, also partly because the Israeli politicians just can't be bothered to address the housing crisis in Israel. By as it were dumping citizens in the OPT, the Israeli Government can avoid starting up a new city, change urban planning models for Tel Aviv (the centre of Israel's housing crisis) and do it on the cheap, basically.

[demima]

There is about 400,000 settlers in the West Bank (as per Wiki). Seems like a lot of pain to go through in order to avoid having to build new homes within Israel. That surely cannot be the main reason. Furthermore, for Israeli politicians, is this an issue which you cannot challenge for fear of being dumped at elections?

Furthermore, the settlers in the West Bank, would they be mostly from the Orthodox sect of Judaism?

[Harmattan]

Just out of curiosity, (new to I/P conflict discussion), Israel has a population of 8.2m people and its population density is not too high. Why is there a need to build settlements in the West Bank? Is much of the land in Israel now unsuitable for habitation (desserts, mountains etc), or is it a case that the settlers are religiously motivated in moving into areas that they deem belongs to them historically.

* Security reason: they need to control and maximize the distance between Jerusalem and their Arab neighbors, to account for the unavoidable reaction and deployment delays, and have a buffer they can hammer.

* Security reason: they need to have as much as fertile land as possible, and as much as underground water as possible, to resist an embargo (saline plant are easy to destroy I guess).

* Security reason: they need to shell themselves from their rebellious slaves, until they are all exiled.

Colonialism always put you in a situation where you need to commit even more atrocities. For a just cause of course: your children's security.


Now the religious and ideological reasons also exist and they are an important fuel of the Greater Israel project, but it only concerns a significant minority. Unfortunately not that few: Israel attracted a lot of religious radicals and they are very present in settlements. For them this land belongs to the elected people. And for some God allows them to do whatever needed, just like He mass murdered Egyptian children to free the Hebrews. Yep, God is a terrorist.

Finally, some Israeli immigrants came from poor countries and were often farmers. Many farmers cannot envision themselves doing something else than cultivating the land. Jerusalem is not for them.

[skinster]

Just out of curiosity, (new to I/P conflict discussion), Israel has a population of 8.2m people and its population density is not too high. Why is there a need to build settlements in the West Bank? Is much of the land in Israel now unsuitable for habitation (desserts, mountains etc), or is it a case that the settlers are religiously motivated in moving into areas that they deem belongs to them historically.

Rightwing Israelis believe that the West Bank belongs to them, because GOD.

Israel basically wants as much land as it can get, hence the settlers in Palestinian territory and...the state's lack of borders.

The so-called peace negotiations are a sham and basically just enabling Israel to steal more Palestinian territory every year. So feel free to laugh hard whenever the Israelis claim they are seeking peace while killing Palestinians almost every other day.