[Hong Wu]

I don't think this is a straw man, I have heard that argument made a thousand times.

[Pants-of-dog]

Also, many people who debate using materialism also believe in god.

[mikema63]

I don't think this is a straw man, I have heard that argument made a thousand times.

That's generally in response to theists demanding where we find meaning in life.

[Paradigm]

The liberal God is progress. More lives have been sacrificed on the altar of progress than any religious inquisition could ever hope to accomplish.

[Hong Wu]

That's generally in response to theists demanding where we find meaning in life.

Well, this may only be tangentially related but many of us can't live without a sense of meaning. We don't find enjoyment in the same things that other people might. And sometimes people find ways to sidestep the most difficult ethical dilemmas in life, such as by not having children and then they act as if they are some kind of guru, condescending towards people who have not taken that route. Even worse, they might have the luxury of developing their own ideology/religion/world view and in doing so they waste a golden opportunity and turn into lustful, hateful people. I personally am fine with a God who tries to reconcile difficult questions and offers a sense of meaning and if I'm to be honest, I don't think anything else could ever be suitable for me.

[Pants-of-dog]

Why do you think that god offers a sense of meaning?

The god i believe in does not offer meaning. God offers something much better: a universe where we develop our own meanings.

[Zamuel]

More lives have been sacrificed on the altar of progress than any religious inquisition could ever hope to accomplish.

That's true ... It's also true that more lives have been redeemed by it than any religious savior or ideology. You may be able to slow it down, but it can never be stopped.

The god i believe in does not offer meaning. God offers something much better: a universe where we develop our own meanings.

You've been watching Bill & Ted again, haven't you ... Hong Wu should try it, he has the character for it.

Zam

[Prosthetic Conscience]

I would add that when pressed on the lack of a replacement for religion, a materialist debater’s usual answer is that a person has to find their own unique meaning in life. Perhaps it never occurs to them that finding religion was an instance of someone finding their own meaning. Everyone engages in their own spiritual explorations and sometimes they realize that their conclusions match those of another religion. Rather then continuing down that path and possibly re-inventing the wheel (an activity that can interfere with other obligations or goals) or becoming materialists/nihilists, they may find that they are comfortable with an existing religion and decide to follow it.
...
Even worse, they might have the luxury of developing their own ideology/religion/world view and in doing so they waste a golden opportunity and turn into lustful, hateful people. I personally am fine with a God who tries to reconcile difficult questions and offers a sense of meaning and if I'm to be honest, I don't think anything else could ever be suitable for me.

So, one moment, you're saying that people finding their own religion, ideology or worldview is a good thing; the next it's a bad thing. The one difference being if it coincides with an existing religion, or if it atheistic. So your argument boils down to "religion is inherently good; atheism is inherently bad". And if we read all that you write, that's what you're saying, again and again.

But, in reality, the vast majority of religious people in the world don't 'find their own meaning'. They follow the religion their parents and community forced on them when they were too young to argue properly.

You may think you're "fine with a God who tries to reconcile difficult questions", but is that because your 'God' is speaking directly to you to discuss those questions? Or are you just assuming that some books contain the thoughts of a god, or a priest is channeling them? Are you just taking someone's word that they speak for God, whether in print or verbally?

[Zamuel]

So your argument boils down to "religion is inherently good; atheism is inherently bad". And if we read all that you write, that's what you're saying, again and again.

Probably indicating that deep down, there are doubts ...

But, in reality, the vast majority of religious people in the world don't 'find their own meaning'. They follow the religion their parents and community forced on them when they were too young to argue properly.

I would take exception to that statement. While you're correct about the inheritance of religious traditions, the existential perception and interpretation of implanted beliefs are unique to every individual. This is what gives rise to schisms, revolutions, and progress.

Oh yeah, Dear God: Please give Hong Wu a face. Whatever he did, it can't have been THAT bad ...

Zam

[quetzalcoatl]

I personally am fine with a God who tries to reconcile difficult questions and offers a sense of meaning and if I'm to be honest, I don't think anything else could ever be suitable for me.

Why do you think that god offers a sense of meaning?

The god i believe in does not offer meaning. God offers something much better: a universe where we develop our own meanings.

Meaning is where you find it. For some odd reason, your serenity ends up being someone else's despair. The Christianity of my childhood is both my despair and my haven, but it does impart a sense of meaning. Or maybe not meaning exactly, but some sense of connection and continuity in my life.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

While you're correct about the inheritance of religious traditions, the existential perception and interpretation of implanted beliefs are unique to every individual. This is what gives rise to schisms, revolutions, and progress.

Sure, some people make decisions on religion, and either actively decide to stay in the one they were brought up in, or choose to change to another (or none - or take up a religion when they previously had none). But that's the exception; Christians stay Christian, Muslims Muslim, Hindus Hindu and so on, on the whole. They tend to stay in roughly the same sects, too. Schisms are fairly rare - and can often be more about organisational disputes, rather than fundamental beliefs.

[Ummon]

This reveals a lot about your personality.