[treely]

There is a lot of conversation about Muslims here and everywhere. But when do we ever get to talk to Muslims?

What I like about this forum is that there is a chance to talk to ordinary people from different countries, not professional writers and commentators, just regular people, and can get a sense of what people are getting from the news media and ambient culture in their different countries.

What are Muslims talking about with each other? Is there a sense of a crisis within Islam?

The image I get from the media and culture (I live in the USA) is that you couldn't possibly find an intelligent, reasonable Muslim to have an intelligent, reasonable conversation with, because they are all crazy, even the majority who don't go around killing people. I know that that would not be true. I know that there must be intelligent, reasonable Muslims.

But I think that one of my criteria for an intelligent, reasonable Muslim would be one who would understand why that stereotype exists.

I see very little communication between Muslims and non-Muslims, on the internet and in the media, and in the real world. There are actually a lot of Muslims in the neighborhood where I live, because here is the one and only mosque in our area so they congregate around it. I see Muslims from many different countries every time I go out grocery shopping. They seem like perfectly nice people. But I have no idea how I would ever go about ever trying to have a conversation with them about.... everything that is going on. I don't know if they would welcome it. It seems to me that the local mosque could hold open houses and invite the non-Muslims to get to know them. But I have never heard of such a thing happening. I don't know about any venues for Muslims and non-Muslims to communicate with each other.

And if people in European countries want to avoid having members of their Muslim populations radicalized and become terrorists, then they have to help Muslims not to feel like hated, segregated outcasts. If I were a leader of France, for example, the first thing I would do would be to spotlight and broadcast the voices of French Muslims condemning the attacks and declaring their loyalty to France. Create media images of Muslim/non-Muslim unity against terrorism. Offer role models for Muslim youth who otherwise are likely to feel alienated and feel they must choose between competing loyalties. Treating Muslims like they are all terrorists or terrorist sympathizers will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There has to be some way to have conversations between Muslims and non-Muslims. Otherwise there is no hope.

[Mujahid_X]

If I were a leader of France, for example, the first thing I would do would be to spotlight and broadcast the voices of French Muslims condemning the attacks and declaring their loyalty to France. Create media images of Muslim/non-Muslim unity against terrorism.

U clearly don't follow the media.

[Dagoth Ur]

There are a handful of us. Most of us are westerners though.

[The Sabbaticus]

When an immigrant diaspora in European countries gets big enough, they'll invariably put up a website for their 'community'. Try the Moroccan, Turkish, Pakistani and other ones.

Themes you'll encounter:

- rabid anti-Western hatred
- rabid anti-Israeli hatred
- thinly veiled support for Islamic terrorism targeting the aforementioned
- "Are we the most persecuted minority in the world or what?"
- "How do I make my Muslim wedding even more Muslim?"
- "<insert pedestrian activity> is this allowed according to Islam?"

[Dagoth Ur]

Immigrant muslims in my experience are usually way less radical than the convert or otherwise western ones. Although to be fair typically the immigrants I come into contact with are educated and American middle class or better.

[Mujahid_X]

Western immigrants also set up their own websites in SE Asia.
With topics like:

Where tot find the cheapest whores?
How to circumvent the law for whatever my needs are?

Small community's living in their own coccoon's. What would it be if these parasites would be in huge numbers? I don't wanna know.

[Harmattan]

The image I get from the media and culture (I live in the USA) is that you couldn't possibly find an intelligent, reasonable Muslim to have an intelligent, reasonable conversation with, because they are all crazy, even the majority who don't go around killing people. I know that that would not be true. I know that there must be intelligent, reasonable Muslims.

I live in France where we are unfortunate enough to have 7% of Muslims, and I grew up in a poor Muslim neighborhood and went to school with them. (*)

Rule of thumb for adult Muslims in the West: if he has a beard or if she has a veil, forget it. You can have a very nice discussion and find them pleasant at first glance but if you get to know them further you will soon encounter an unpleasant discussion that will make you realize they are religion sick (although some women are simply forced to wear the veil by the "Muslim police" - assholes who use social pressure and intimidations to make sure that everyone in the neighborhood behave accordingly to Islam - and to avoid being raped).

But the other ones are people like any other. I had a lot of "Muslim" friends ; they starved one month a year, they didn't eat ham, they had funny expressions such as Mektoub and a new set of swears to add to my arsenal as a kid, and many girls suffered social pressures that poisoned they relationships with non-Muslims. But the differences ended there.


(*) Those who live in bourgeois circles, though, have less opportunities to frequent Muslims. I was close to the few of them that I still encountered during my upper studies, but since then I barely had chances to frequent some.

What are Muslims talking about with each other? Is there a sense of a crisis within Islam?

They read news like anyone else obviously, but according to them it has nothing to do with Islam: they are in a collective denial. It is always the fault of such dictator, of the USA, of a few sickos, of colonialism, of Israel, etc. But the fact that religious fanaticism is present in every fucking Muslim country? Not related to Islam of course! The moderates will claim that it is just a matter of interpretation and devise sophisticated ones to fit their western liberal views in the Koran mold.

This is made more complicated by the fact that, to them, Islam is not just a religion, it is also an identity, a culture and a community much stronger than Christian communities. They feel that criticizing Islam means betraying all of that. Besides many do not know their religion because they do not read Arab, especially the literary one, and they are reluctant to read it in another language.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

And if people in European countries want to avoid having members of their Muslim populations radicalized and become terrorists, then they have to help Muslims not to feel like hated, segregated outcasts. If I were a leader of France, for example, the first thing I would do would be to spotlight and broadcast the voices of French Muslims condemning the attacks and declaring their loyalty to France. Create media images of Muslim/non-Muslim unity against terrorism. Offer role models for Muslim youth who otherwise are likely to feel alienated and feel they must choose between competing loyalties. Treating Muslims like they are all terrorists or terrorist sympathizers will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

To me this sounds like it's actually you are you are viewing all Muslims as potential terrorists. Do Muslim become radicalised by default, if we don't spin the media in their favour?

At any rate, this has been tried for years if not decades. We've been told "tolerance and diversity above all else" and most of the media has dutifully complied in the "fight against prejudice and stereotypes". Media spin is powerful, but after a while it becomes so repetitive that people lose interest and ignore it.

The facts in Europe are that a lot of Muslims
1) feel hostility towards their host country and the west in general, partly because they feel the west is "out to get Muslims/Islam".
2) believe almost any conspiracy theory you present them with, if it involves the west or Jews/Israel. You would probably be surprised how many don't believe that 9/11 was carried out by Muslims.
3) are much more reactionary than the average Christian/Atheist.
4) deny any connection between terrorism and Islam. They are basically in denial.

Minorities in the west, whether religious, ethnic, or whatever else, never had it better than today. And to my knowledge, historically, minorities were not more likely to become radicalised, despite the fact that they were usually treated with less respect, had less support and experienced less tolerance. So it doesn't really follow that, if we only made Muslims feel more appreciated and were nicer to them, then they wouldn't become radicalised.

[Heinie]

Immigrant muslims in my experience are usually way less radical than the convert or otherwise western ones. Although to be fair typically the immigrants I come into contact with are educated and American middle class or better.

"American middle class or better"! What shameless class snobbery. You are clearly well integrated into the American dream.

[kobe]

The US only accepts educated/wealthy/technically skilled immigrants into the country now. I don't think it's class snobbery so much as US immigration policy (which is in itself a little bit of class snobbery).

[Mujahid_X]

"American middle class or better"! What shameless class snobbery. You are clearly well integrated into the American dream.

Coca cola muslim.

[treely]

U clearly don't follow the media.

Well, I don't know what country you live in, but I don't get that message from the American media. (And this should have been done in the US after 9/11 to try to prevent more polarization.) And I also see (in comments sections of American mainstream news outlets on the internet) the frequent comment "why aren't Muslim leaders condemning the Paris attacks" while I know from other sources that world Muslim leaders have condemned them. It almost seems that the lack of coverage of this in American media, at least, is intended to create more polarization and hate.

To me this sounds like it's actually you are you are viewing all Muslims as potential terrorists.

No, I didn't mean that all Muslims are potential terrorists (I did recognize that my sentence could be parsed that way, but thought it was obvious that that was not what it meant). I meant that treating all Muslims as potential terrorists is likely to create more alienated youth who would be susceptible to recruitment, and that greater polarization is likely to create more alienation and terrorist sympathies, because it can create a sense of victimization.

In fact, it seems you agree:

The facts in Europe are that a lot of Muslims
1) feel hostility towards their host country and the west in general, partly because they feel the west is "out to get Muslims/Islam".

The point is, to encourage that feeling is to exacerbate the problem.

assholes who use social pressure and intimidations to make sure that everyone in the neighborhood behave accordingly to Islam - and to avoid being raped).

"Everyone in the neighborhood" means that there are (in European countries) Muslim quarters, segregated Muslim neighborhoods. This is not, in my opinion, a good idea.

I would like to hear from Muslims like Dagoth Ur about their opinions about the future direction of the Muslim world.

[Mujahid_X]

Sorry I didn't knew u lived in a country without free press.

[Harmattan]

"Everyone in the neighborhood" means that there are (in European countries) Muslim quarters, segregated Muslim neighborhoods. This is not, in my opinion, a good idea.

This happens for a number of reasons:

* Most of them live in social housing because most of them are still in the lower income brackets.
* At some point we parked all of those who asked for social housing in the same places, deliberately concentrating immigrants.
* Immigrants like to live with similar immigrants and this is significant if you have 7% of Muslims (national average, so much more in cheap places around dynamic cities, much less elsewhere).
* Muslims are attracted by Mosques and Arab shops. One's nimby is another's yimby.

[Dagoth Ur]

"American middle class or better"! What shameless class snobbery. You are clearly well integrated into the American dream.

lol what? I am an American of German-Irish extraction. And I use middle-class because they [muslim immigrants in my area] are a hodge-podge of small bourgeoisie and well-off proletarians or labor aristocrats. Or they are flat out wealthy.

Or is it about the "or better" end of it? You're nuts if you think it isn't better to be rich. This is capitalism.

[Heinie]

...

Or is it about the "or better" end of it? You're nuts if you think it isn't better to be rich. This is capitalism.

I was right about you.

[Dagoth Ur]

Right about what exactly?

[Heinie]

Right about what exactly?

Forgive me but I cannot explain that for many people there is more to life than money and rich people are not considered any better than the poor. I do not expect you to understand.

[Dagoth Ur]

Ah so you think I am saying rich people are inherently better people than the poor, rather than better off. Okay I get it. Yeah I am a marxist so I don't go around making silly moralistic statements like that. So you're completely off base.

It is just a fact that the amount of wealth you have affects how well you do in life. This is inherent to the system of capitalism.

[mikema63]

Clearly your words are a microagression against the poor and you just triggered Heinie.

I'm sure if you apologized very nicely he might forgive you.