[alithinker]

What is Islam?
I have been raised a Muslim all my life. I was born in a very strict Muslim family- Shiite sect- and was raised as a very religious boy. And I was taught a whole lot about Islam and its history in all different versions.
What is fascinating about the story of Islam is how it started. If you ask anybody about how Islam started you would hear great stories about Mohammad. He is depicted as this "human right's fighter". He fought for "equality" in his community. He called for equality between Black and White, Arab and non-Arab, and even between Man and Woman- yeah believe it or not.
So yeah, I can see why people liked him and gathered around him- especially considering the conditions of society in which he grew up.
But what happened at the end of his life?!
I don't understand how a man who called for equality between man and woman ended up having 9 to 11 wives when he died. (That was not the case when he started his movement, btw. He started his movement when he only had one wife.) So my questions is, did he just become corrupt?

The thing about a lot of Muslims today is that they don't look at their history critically. Yes Mohammad was a great man- at least at first- and yes his message was beautiful and liberating. BUT! That doesn't mean we should worship him. He was just a man, fallible like the rest of us, and he made some mistakes along the way. Why can't we take the "good" and leave the "bad".

For whatever reason, a lot of religious people believe in what I like to call the "exclusivity right". (This is just a term that I made up.) They believe that you do not have the right to question their beliefs. And even more so, you are not allowed to come in- become a Muslim- and move out- reject Islam- whenever you feel like it. But why?

I am not a religious man- not anymore- I am an agnostic. I don't know if God exists or not, nor do I care. But I still like to experience religious practice from time to time. I still feel like going to Mosques and Churches from time to time and join people in practicing Islam, Christianity, Buddhism and so on- as I have in the past. Spirituality is fun! But I am often not allowed to.

Why cant we question the religions of our ancestors? Why can't we enjoy the beauty in them without having to commit to the ugly? Why do some of us believe that whatever we inherited from our ancestors is "perfect" and "infallible"?

You know, religions have a lot of beauty in them. But people make them ugly when they try to force you to accept the whole package, or else you are not welcome.

[anasawad]

1- i believe the number was 13....
his main wife which he actually married for love was aisha...but the others each has a different situation...and each was to show muslims whats the right acts...
for example....his wife safia was jewish when he married her....he did it to show muslims that its acceptable to marry into other religions and the rules of it..
same goes for the others...

2-the prophet was a man ..just like us....no one worships hem..or atleast if some do its not islamic...its clearly stated that the prophet is only a man like everyone else who had a responsibility of passing teachings from god to people like all other prophets..

3-it would depend on your look on islam and the definition of good and bad..
islam is a system of living ...not just a spiritual believe....and the acts of muslims doesnt necessarily be considered islamic ....
in general ...to make it short...one of the main rules in islam is that it applies logic and reason ....so when you wonder about a certain topic....search all the aspects of it ...all the info's ..and all its effects...and apply logic and reason to it .....
for example....islam forbids alcohol ....when you think about this topic..dont look up how much you enjoy yourself when drinking ..but whats the overall effects and the results of it ..and see if its good or bad...applies for all aspects including teachings or rule...

4-its clearly mentioned in quran that you have the freedom to choose your religion...if you entered islam then didn't believe in it ..you're free to leave...after all its not about what you're called by the people but by god..and if you dont believe in islam ..even if you're called a muslim by people..you're really not...
but there is a rule about it....if you left islam in peace then its ok...but if left islam and attacked muslims and islam and fought them ...here you are punished...not for leaving islam as some believe but for the attack at what ever scale it was the punishment according..

5-its only logical to question something ....but before going into the questioning thing.....the way of questioning also matters....it can bring peaceful responds and hostility depending on the method ...
for questioning .....
for example...for me i do follow the part of helping people..living in harmony and peace with everyone...the unity of society even if on a small scale ..
in the other hand ...i dont think that i want the punishment for pre-marriage sexual relations(adultery) performed on someone .specially if a girl that i know or worse close too by anyone and wouldn't approve it although its in islam i just dont have the heart or ability to accept applying it...
and i do go into very long searches to find answers to my questions.....and i specially question historical events that are claimed to be islamic ...
and my results i would go further to see evidence of quran and hadith on it with the application of any related type of knowledge and logical methods ..sometimes its actually islamic although i didn't like it and sometimes i liked it but turns out it breaks islam .....
that will lead me to seek more knowledge to gain better understanding of the reason of my stand on these events and the very reality of these events or laws or teachings....

that i believe is how everyone should do ....unfortunately rarely does ...i hope i answer all questions and feel free to ask anything..and 'll try my best to answer ..

[Noelnada]

The thing about a lot of Muslims today is that they don't look at their history critically. Yes Mohammad was a great man- at least at first- and yes his message was beautiful and liberating. BUT! That doesn't mean we should worship him.

The vast majority of muslims i meet on the internet seems to indulge in some sort of idolatry towards Mohammad. I think it's contrary to the teaching of islam itself.

This is even worse in Christianism unfortunately with idolatry towards Jesus which has become a dogma and idolatry towards scriptures which have been selected and recompiled from the original Church by Rome centuries later.

The teaching of islam is that the messenger is important because of the message delivered, the message is what matters. My conviction is that it's close to the original Christian teaching which got perverted over time but it seems that the islamic teaching itself is being perverted over time too, even if the original scripture remain untouched.

I told to you before that i was a believer and it's rather depressing because i can't join established monotheist families due to their man-made rituals, traditions, contradictions with original messages and features obstructing political and spiritual progress.

Why cant we question the religions of our ancestors?

But we can because we are free and it's a gift which was given to us by the prime creator (or whatever the reason that suits non believers).

Why can't we enjoy the beauty in them without having to commit to the ugly?

Because we are only humans designed with inner flaws, misfit to our own material and cultural evolution, struggling to better ourselves and often failing.

Why do some of us believe that whatever we inherited from our ancestors is "perfect" and "infallible"?

Because some of us are afraid to create, innovate, improve what already exists. They are afraid to fail and clinge to what they know and seems to work.

You know, religions have a lot of beauty in them. But people make them ugly when they try to force you to accept the whole package

Lot of people following religions are spiritually poor. They don't truly grasp the religious messages, they can't read the signs of the prime creator in their environment they can't read the code in their own soul, they don't know themselves. And worst of all, some people exploit religious interpretations or religious traditions to consolidate their power over others, to manipulate others for political or financial reasons.

I know you're a good man, and sometimes it means being alone, walking lonely in the desert but you'll find an oasis and refresh your soul. You'll see it's not a crisis of Islam, it's a crisis of humans.

[Ornate Placebo]

Alithinker, in your experience, would you say the majority of people you encounter in Saudi Arabia are actually fervent and devoted in their belief or do they only give the appearance of commitment due to herd mentality and fear of persecution?

[KlassWar]

I don't understand how a man who called for equality between man and woman ended up having 9 to 11 wives when he died. (That was not the case when he started his movement, btw. He started his movement when he only had one wife.) So my questions is, did he just become corrupt?

Muhammad was so wildly successful because ideals always gave way to cynical realpolitik. As a preacher he could express all sorts of interesting ideals, as a warlord he was bound to the conventions of medieval Arab clan politics, in all their horrid patriarchy.

A warlord's kin was expected to marry into the clans that supported them. Muhammad lacked male kin, so he married the girls himself. Lust and hipocrisy probably didn't hurt.

[KlassWar]

The teaching of islam is that the messenger is important because of the message delivered, the message is what matters. My conviction is that it's close to the original Christian teaching which got perverted over time but it seems that the islamic teaching itself is being perverted over time too, even if the original scripture remain untouched.

Whaddayamean untouched? They were several caliphs in before them scriptures even got compiled. And don't get me started on the matter of the hadith...

[anasawad]

the quran was written in times of mohammed...each verse alone...after the message was completed ...abu bakr after the prophets death gathered the sheets together....
there wasnt many caliphs nor anything..directly after it was done it was gather/....

the hadith was also written while the prophet was alive ....it was written or rather recorded by a number of people (specific ones of the sahaba)...when the islamic world grew vast in size some politicians started attempts to divert hadith....thats when imams like al-sadeq ..bukhari.muslim along with many others gave a life time to track the hadith that was recorded by the sahaba from the prophet directly using a number of methods to varify te viability of the hadith inhand (whether true or not)...and all recorded in mainly 12 books with 3 of them holding only the fully sured of .....

this is actually where the catagories of hadith came from....some were motafaq alaih which is fully sured its original then it go lower and lower to parts where its sured thats its a lie and not original hadith ....

you only take the sured part.....

[KlassWar]

the quran was written in times of mohammed...each verse alone...after the message was completed ...abu bakr after the prophets death gathered the sheets together....
there wasnt many caliphs nor anything..directly after it was done it was gather/....

the hadith was also written while the prophet was alive ....it was written or rather recorded by a number of people (specific ones of the sahaba)...when the islamic world grew vast in size some politicians started attempts to divert hadith....thats when imams like al-sadeq ..bukhari.muslim along with many others gave a life time to track the hadith that was recorded by the sahaba from the prophet directly using a number of methods to varify te viability of the hadith inhand (whether true or not)...and all recorded in mainly 12 books with 3 of them holding only the fully sured of .....

this is actually where the catagories of hadith came from....some were motafaq alaih which is fully sured its original then it go lower and lower to parts where its sured thats its a lie and not original hadith ....

you only take the sured part.....

IIRC, you're half-right. Sure, the Quran and the Hadiths are more or less coetaneous... But the first Quran copies known to modern historians date from either the late Rashidoons or the early Ummayads.

Arab society in the times of Muhammad was very heavily based on oral tradition. By all accounts Muhammad is said to have dictated the Qur'an to trusted scribes... And despite their obvious value the original manuscripts either weren't preserved or vanished without mention at some point. The first copies that have been preserved to be documented by historians are later-dated.

Even under the muslim apologist version of events, it was Abu-Bakr who performed the editorial work. How is abu-Bakr of all people a trustworthy editor?

[anasawad]

again i would disagree..the oldest sheet of quran goes back to the times of the prophet...it was found inside one of the eldest qurans in the world...
the quran was written while the hadith was memorised until by the end of the prophet day was recorded...
abu bakr or the latter on didn't edit the quran...they compiled..
the arabic writting method was edited not the quran it self..
at the early days of islam arabic was writtten differently..it had no dots ..no strikes ..and (not sure whats the name in english) the little things on top of letters and words...
the spelling was same and everyone spoke it ..but along times people started moving away from fluent arabic language along with the understanding of some parts of its way of writting...there for the things mentioned above were added to specify the spelling and reading method of the quran and the language in general.....
as in arabic..specially in fluent arabic not a random dialect in it ....a little difference in spelling can not only change the meaning of the word or sentence but sometimes the entire context ....thats why those markers were added and thats why the oldest qurans looks different than newer ones.....
but the quran it self was not changed so far....as from i believe from the age of othman a number of coppies of the quran was made and distributed all around ...all exactly the same as the original one so it can be used for comparision to know if a copy of quran is accuratly copied and made or not ....
latter on it became easier

and to comment ...true the society was dependent on oral tradition...and because the prophet saw how it would change the meanings is exactly why he ordered the quran to be written from the very begining...and actually ordered the hadith not to be for a while then only allowed a number of people to record hadith.....
in order not mix anything from hadith with quran or people thinking that a written hadith in that time is part of the quran ....

the versions you speak of by the historians are the ones made by othman in the late caliphate age ...as i mentioned before..but it was before the ummayads...atleast shorty....but still only few years after the prophet death and the first compiling of the quran ...
in the early ages people would have to go to mosques to read quran or memorise it...as it was not possible to get a copy to yourself at home....
at the early ummayads that became possible which is why many copies date back to that age......

ADD : the oldest found are fragments of quranic scripts which dates between 568-645 AD..which is durning the life time of the prophet...
this actually proves the public history and what i mentioned that the prophet ordered the writing of quran..but it was each verse in sheets alone not all gathered in one book....the verses were gathered together in the age of abu-bakr ..and everywhile a certain modification to the way of writting arabic language was made like adding dots or markers in order to make easier for the people to read which in hand was modified to the quran but you'll still read the same script and words..just now with signs telling you the right way to read it

EDIT: this is a sample of how was old arabic then it changed to more complex form of writting
http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images ... 627_18.jpg

while this is more modern form
http://prntscr.com/8ixytj

[alithinker2]

The vast majority of muslims i meet on the internet seems to indulge in some sort of idolatry towards Mohammad. I think it's contrary to the teaching of islam itself.
This is even worse in Christianism unfortunately with idolatry towards Jesus which has become a dogma and idolatry towards scriptures which have been selected and recompiled from the original Church by Rome centuries later.

Very true. They believe Mohammad is "infallible". Basically, he was "PERFECT". Which does not make any sense. Coz he is perfect aaccording to whom? To me? To you? To whome? Perfection does not exist because everybody has a different taste.
Same goes for Jesus of course.

The teaching of islam is that the messenger is important because of the message delivered, the message is what matters. My conviction is that it's close to the original Christian teaching which got perverted over time but it seems that the islamic teaching itself is being perverted over time too, even if the original scripture remain untouched.

Whaddayamean untouched? They were several caliphs in before them scriptures even got compiled. And don't get me started on the matter of the hadith...

I agree with KlassWar. There is no way to prove that the Quran is untouched as Muslims like to claim. In fact, if you study the Quran critically, it even has contradictions. It promotes peace in places and war in other.
Now I cant deny that the Quran is a fantastic piece of ART. It is beautiful- at least mostly. But to believe that it is the message of God is a bit of a stretch. Just a little bit :P

I told to you before that i was a believer and it's rather depressing because i can't join established monotheist families due to their man-made rituals, traditions, contradictions with original messages and features obstructing political and spiritual progress.

I know, I am sorry. I sometimes wish I could go to the Mosque too but then people would start questioning me and critisicing me so I stopped going altogether. I would also LOVE to join catholic churches in their rituals but there are none around.
Buddhism is beautiful too. It is marvelous.

Speaking of spirituality Noelnada, have you ever read a book by the author Paulo Coelho?
He write novels. And they often have spiritual themes. They are FANTASTIC. Paulo was a huge inspiration for me to embrace spirituality after I stopped being religious. If you haven't read for him, try "The Witch of Portobello", or The Zahir. You can also try his most famous book "The Alchemist".

Because some of us are afraid to create, innovate, improve what already exists. They are afraid to fail and clinge to what they know and seems to work.

Very True. That is the main explanation I can come up with when faced with the question of: why Why do some of us believe that whatever we inherited from our ancestors is "perfect" and "infallible"?
Another reason though might be because people are afraid to go against their parents. You know people here generally don't dare question their ancestors' beliefs. It is hard to admit that your mom and dad might be "wrong". It is hard.
When I went to the US I saw movies where kids "shout" at their parents and say "I hate you" to them. That kind of behavior could NEVER happen here. People are afraid to question their parents and ancestors. They feel "guilty" about "daring" to question their ancestors.
I love my parents. But they are dead wrong, and I am not ashamed to admit it. That doesn't make me hate them though. I still love them despite being wrong. That is because they are just humans, they are not perfect. They did their best trying to raise me. And they still try their best to help me be happy EVEN WHEN THEY LITERALLY HARASS ME and try to force me into their religion.

Lot of people following religions are spiritually poor. They don't truly grasp the religious messages, they can't read the signs of the prime creator in their environment they can't read the code in their own soul, they don't know themselves. And worst of all, some people exploit religious interpretations or religious traditions to consolidate their power over others, to manipulate others for political or financial reasons.

Very True.

it's not a crisis of Islam, it's a crisis of humans.

Well put. Very well put. It is a crisis of "humans". We are such fragile beings. And it is really hard to find the right way sometimes. We all fuck up sometimes, real bad.
I have witnessed people, good people, who were genuine and hard working. But they ended up doing bad things and hurting others. It is really hard to be a good person. It takes hard work and it takes "continuous" work. And you might still screw up.
It is not easy to admit that "good intentions" don't always lead to "good results". It is a sad fact about life.

[alithinker2]

Alithinker, in your experience, would you say the majority of people you encounter in Saudi Arabia are actually fervent and devoted in their belief or do they only give the appearance of commitment due to herd mentality and fear of persecution?

That is a hard question to answer. It is complicated.
I am not even sure that a lot of people here even "think" about the issues that I talk about. They just go with the flow.
Yes there are fervent people here and there. And yes there are a minority who sometimes dare to question religious belief and authority. But those are the few. Most people just go with what they are told. They worship because they are told to, and they don't, when they are told to. They wanna stay out of trouble- like in fighting the government or, on the other hand, joining ISIS- and so they just work and make a living. They just wanna live and have a good time- when possible.
So yes, most people, if asked, would give you the standard Muslim answers. But to dare fight the government, or join ISIS is going way too far. Most people don't even dare think outside the box.

So yes, "fear of persecution" and "herd mentality" are the main reasons why most people live the way they do. But there is also another reason, lack of "data"
If you think that I am daring and different compared to the average Muslim it is because I "witnessed" a lot in my life. I lived in Iran, I lived in Saudi Arabia (they are quite different despite what you think of the similarities) and I lived in the US. Most people here NEVER even travel to the neighboring Dubai. If somebody goes to Dubai- which is literally a few hours drive- it is like he/she did an amazing thing. Most people never see anything beyond their immediate surroundings.
I have seen people who grew up their entire lives within a few hundred square kilometers. Hell maybe even less. It is crazy! They never saw anything beyond their immediate surroundings. They never encounter different opinion. So all they know is what they are told.
Part of the reason people don't travel is money. New generations are richer but the old ones- which often have a lot of power now- never got to travel in their lives. So now they rule our lives with their elderly mentality.
Another part of the reason is "bad policy". It is incredibly hard to travel these days because of immigration/border laws. I have been complaining about this in another topic.
I don't think it was always this hard to travel. I think that after 9/11, and other recent wars, border controls got A LOT tighter. This isn't good for anyone. This doesn't help mixing cultures and learning from one another.

Lastly, there is also of course, the fear of "change" that people have when it comes to traveling to a very different culture. Not everybody in this world has a sense of adventure and daring. Coz let's face it, experiencing the new can be scary. That is why most people here, even when they do travel, go to countries with a very similar culture. Most Muslim travelers, as far as I see, ONLY travel to Muslim countries.


p.s. that is a strange name you got Also a beautiful avatar.

[alithinker2]

again i would disagree..the oldest sheet of quran goes back to the times of the prophet...it was found inside one of the eldest qurans in the world...
the quran was written while the hadith was memorised until by the end of the prophet day was recorded...
abu bakr or the latter on didn't edit the quran...they compiled..
the arabic writting method was edited not the quran it self..
at the early days of islam arabic was writtten differently..it had no dots ..no strikes ..and (not sure whats the name in english) the little things on top of letters and words...
the spelling was same and everyone spoke it ..but along times people started moving away from fluent arabic language along with the understanding of some parts of its way of writting...there for the things mentioned above were added to specify the spelling and reading method of the quran and the language in general.....
as in arabic..specially in fluent arabic not a random dialect in it ....a little difference in spelling can not only change the meaning of the word or sentence but sometimes the entire context ....thats why those markers were added and thats why the oldest qurans looks different than newer ones.....
but the quran it self was not changed so far....as from i believe from the age of othman a number of coppies of the quran was made and distributed all around ...all exactly the same as the original one so it can be used for comparision to know if a copy of quran is accuratly copied and made or not ....
latter on it became easier

and to comment ...true the society was dependent on oral tradition...and because the prophet saw how it would change the meanings is exactly why he ordered the quran to be written from the very begining...and actually ordered the hadith not to be for a while then only allowed a number of people to record hadith.....
in order not mix anything from hadith with quran or people thinking that a written hadith in that time is part of the quran ....

the versions you speak of by the historians are the ones made by othman in the late caliphate age ...as i mentioned before..but it was before the ummayads...atleast shorty....but still only few years after the prophet death and the first compiling of the quran ...
in the early ages people would have to go to mosques to read quran or memorise it...as it was not possible to get a copy to yourself at home....
at the early ummayads that became possible which is why many copies date back to that age......

ADD : the oldest found are fragments of quranic scripts which dates between 568-645 AD..which is durning the life time of the prophet...
this actually proves the public history and what i mentioned that the prophet ordered the writing of quran..but it was each verse in sheets alone not all gathered in one book....the verses were gathered together in the age of abu-bakr ..and everywhile a certain modification to the way of writting arabic language was made like adding dots or markers in order to make easier for the people to read which in hand was modified to the quran but you'll still read the same script and words..just now with signs telling you the right way to read it

EDIT: this is a sample of how was old arabic then it changed to more complex form of writting
http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images ... 627_18.jpg

while this is more modern form
http://prntscr.com/8ixytj

I am not even going to argue with you about whether or not the Quran or the Hadith are legitimate. Because honestly, who cares?!
Why do you even accept the premise that: "God had sent a 'message' to his people through a single- or multiple- human beings called 'prophets'?" This is such a HUGE premise to swallow.
I don't have a problem with believing in God. If you want to believe in God, so be it. But why do you accept the belief that God would send a "message"?
What message?! Do you buy into the idea that "mankind is doomed" and so "our only salvation is a 'message' from God"?
Look, I know life can be hard sometimes, and we get screwed sometimes. I know we suffer sometimes and go through hardship. We all understand that. But to believe that our only way out is through a "message"- or a system- that God would send to us through some humans is being superstitious.

Why should God solve our problems? Why can't we solve our own problems and create our own "systems"?
I know they are not going to be perfect. There can never be a perfect system. But that is why we need to work on our systems and improve them. That is why every generation works hard to maintain the system and fix the bad parts of it.

So no, God does not send messages. Those prophets that we call Mohammad and Jesus, etc.. were just revolutionary humans. They brought new "systems". And they fixed the societies of their times. But this is not their time.
We can learn from them- as we should. But we can't just accept everything that Mohammad said. Of course there are things that he said that are "wrong"- or at least wrong for our times. And that is why it is our job to learn from the wrong and make the correct adjustments. It is our job to make our world a better place, not God's job.

[Rich]

Yes Why can't God use fucking Facebook? Twitter? Email? I thought God was meant to be super intelligent, yet he communicates in the most moronic fashion possible. Why can't he send an Angel down and take over the TV networks for half an hour?

My Mum's getting on but even she can use Email? But God no, he's incapable of using email. Couldn't he perform a miracle to get round our spam filters?

[KlassWar]

I love my parents. But they are dead wrong, and I am not ashamed to admit it. That doesn't make me hate them though. I still love them despite being wrong. That is because they are just humans, they are not perfect. They did their best trying to raise me. And they still try their best to help me be happy EVEN WHEN THEY LITERALLY HARASS ME and try to force me into their religion.

Considering that you live in a feudal and theocratic police state, I'd reckon the main reason your parents pressure you so ruthlessly is that they fear for your safety. And they got a point: Being a secular dissident in Saudiland can get you in serious trouble.

You should seriously consider getting the soul-crushing job your father wants you to get in order to save enough money to GTFO to any Anglo country on a tourist visa, and then immediately request political asylum. Shouldn't be all that hard to get it: You're a pro-western liberal, english-speaking and have Western higher education. And as an ex-muslim you are actually unsafe in Saudia.

If the economic migrant card ain't working for you, the liberal dissident card might . Scandinavian countries might be your simplest bet.

[Godstud]

And they got a point: Being a secular dissident in Saudiland can get you in serious trouble.

QFT.

Saudi Arabia is preparing to behead and crucify a 21-year-old activist
Al-Nimr was arrested in 2012, at age 17, in the predominantly Shia province of Qatif, and accused of participating in anti-government protests and possessing illegal firearms. He has repeatedly denied the latter charge, although he was reportedly tortured into confessing the offenses after his arrest. According to Amnesty International, al-Nimr spent a short time in a juvenile detention facility before being transferred to prison when he turned 18, and was sentenced to death in 2014.
http://qz.com/506932/saudi-arabia-is-pr ... -activist/

Amazing what you'll confess to when tortured, eh?

People are leaving these countries not just for a reason, but then they turn around and want to turn their new home into the one they fled...

[alithinker2]

Considering that you live in a feudal and theocratic police state, I'd reckon the main reason your parents pressure you so ruthlessly is that they fear for your safety. And they got a point: Being a secular dissident in Saudiland can get you in serious trouble.

You should seriously consider getting the soul-crushing job your father wants you to get in order to save enough money to GTFO to any Anglo country on a tourist visa, and then immediately request political asylum. Shouldn't be all that hard to get it: You're a pro-western liberal, english-speaking and have Western higher education. And as an ex-muslim you are actually unsafe in Saudia.

If the economic migrant card ain't working for you, the liberal dissident card might . Scandinavian countries might be your simplest bet.

I actually had finally just left Saudi.
I tried getting a tourist visa to some nice countries such as the US and Sweden.. but it is just so incredibly hard to get one. They ask for a "letter of employment" and I don't have one at the moment. I have enough money to go anywhere I want. But I just need a country to host me.
Right now I am in a poor country in Asia. I didn't need a visa to get here. (I got a visa on arrival) I am trying to apply for a refugee status with the UNHCR so that they help me find a country that can host me.

QFT.

Saudi Arabia is preparing to behead and crucify a 21-year-old activist
Al-Nimr was arrested in 2012, at age 17, in the predominantly Shia province of Qatif, and accused of participating in anti-government protests and possessing illegal firearms. He has repeatedly denied the latter charge, although he was reportedly tortured into confessing the offenses after his arrest. According to Amnesty International, al-Nimr spent a short time in a juvenile detention facility before being transferred to prison when he turned 18, and was sentenced to death in 2014.
http://qz.com/506932/saudi-arabia-is-pr ... -activist/

Amazing what you'll confess to when tortured, eh?

People are leaving these countries not just for a reason, but then they turn around and want to turn their new home into the one they fled...

I didn't hear that specific story but then again there so many of those stories that you don't even need to doubt. I know that you can't fuck with the system here in Saudi. They are extremely hostile.

[fuser]

Where in asia, ali?

[alithinker2]

Hi Fuser, I am in Nepal.
OK, so I went to the UNHCR here at Katmandu, and they literally refused to take my case.
They said: yes there is a chance you would be accepted as a "refugee" (even though the process could take up to 4-6 months) but even if you are accepted as a "refugee", you will NOT be given citizenship/work permit here in Nepal, nor will you be resettled to a 3rd country.
So basically, it is useless.
What pisses me off though is that on their website, the UNHCR's mission is to help a "refugee" integrate locally OR resettle to a third country where he/she can integrate locally. (local integration basically means getting a "work permit" and being allowed to stay in the country legally. See their website for reference.) So it is quite ridiculous that the UNHCR office here at Katmandu didn't even do what they are supposed to.
I told them I am gonna complain to the UNHCR head office. They said fine. I have their email and phone number, but I doubt they will help me.

You see, I understand if other countries don't want to host me, that is understandable. They don't owe me anything. But the UNHCR refused to even ask them to host me. Many countries host thousands of refugees every year. The US alone hosts some hundred thousand refugees or more each year. But the UNHCR refused to even take my case.
I mean yes my chances might be low (a lot of people seek refugee in the US) but they should let me at least try.


I was worried from the start that something like this might happen. The reason the UNHCR here refused to help me isn't because I am asking for something that they don't provide. It is just that the local office here is so flooded with refugee applications so much that they just reject everyone's request? I don't know this is just too fucked up.

[alithinker2]

This is what their website says:
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49c3646cf8.html

[alithinker2]

I thought about walking to the US embassy- which was quite close to the UNHCR's office- and ask them for asylum. But I am sure they wouldn't even let me in to meet the counselor. They would probably reject me at the gate.
Besides, I was afraid that if they find out that I am a Saudi, they might report my case to the Saudi government. I know it is hard to imagine, but the US and SA have a strong tie, and so I have a hard time trusting them.
It is a fucked up situation I am in. Any ideas guys?