[Bridgeburner]

This isn't an atypical religion vs science thread

This is a thread more towards the learned religious types habiting this board like annatar, Donald and abu_rashid about how technological evolution is going to incorporate itself into religious life, and what specifically is the attitude towards (consumer) technology (Not science) from religious authority; though anyone is welcome to pass comments.

It's important that a distinction be applied between science and the technology that translates into reality as a result of scientific process. I take the long view that we will have technical progress as long as humans are alive (in some form or the other) and am not particularly concerned with the stale science/religion debate.

It's more the opposite view that I find that certain technological progress as a result of scientific inquiry is creating conditions detrimental towards human spirituality, whilst at the same time improving their condition materialistically on a base biological level. If a persons needs, wants or troubles are completely sated as a result of advances in consumer technology, where then in that persons life is there space for any form of spirituality? Said people may even go through religious motions, but in the absence of any form of existential struggle, is spiritual catharsis even possible? Can a Westerner (and eventually, human regardless of location) who lives a life of relative boundless material sustenance (all forms of sensory entertainment,desire and base needs) even achieve any form of spiritual evolution?

One part of me believes religion is a stabilizing force for agrarian and post-agrarian societies, codifying laws and norms to promote social and political stability. The other believes in the possibility of religion (regardless of type) being a force capable and aimed at achieving human spiritual transcendence beyond the point of us being chained, limited and subjected to our hard-wired biological demands and desires.

"The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

So in essence, the struggle is not against science per se, I feel science is merely making sense of what is around us in the most rational way relative to our time-period, but the technology that is developed as a result of this understanding that gives into "physical weakness", and in doing so completely sidelines the spiritual component of humanity.

Considering that modern political thought is heavily influenced with the secularized(yet Christian influenced) idea of "heaven on earth", an endpoint of a material utopia that can replicate the concept of a Christian heaven and translate it into a literal reality( the pseudo-religious driving force behind consumerism - salvation through consumption and material goods), should religious organizations and peoples view with trepidation the concept of a "post-scarcity" society, which is what almost all modern political thought is eventually predicated with achieving.

And given the timeless march of technology, how exactly is religion prepared to deal with the very real problem of humans being perpetually maintained in a stasis of biological desire and fulfilment? is forced asceticism the only way one can achieve mastery over the physical?

Being a particularly irreligious person, I am more concerned with the effect consumer technology is having on my generation (and I hold it in contrast with previous generations) and the quality of human that is produced by such a society (quality being measured not by statistics like lifespan, amount of material goods they possess etc), and how our generation hardly would be able to summon the mental or physical fortitude to achieve what the Greatest generation in WW2 did, let alone go what they went through without breaking down in a heap. Trends like the "herbivore men", or "hikkimori" in Japan (Japanese society gives us a glimpse into the future of sorts, being probably the worlds first postindustrial society) are particularly frightening and disturbing, moreso than any forms of "police state" dystopia

I'm particularly interested in a religious perspective on the prospect of a post scarcity "utopia" and/or advances in consumer technology/technology - does the coming "Golden age" of materialism necessarily correspond with a "Dark Age" of spirituality?

[One Degree]

Technology has already shown that it reduces our interest in the outside world.
This is for two reasons.
1. It allows us to fulfill our needs without leaving our homes.
2. The internet information age is creating divisions in the world as we become more aware of our incompatible differences.

This will continue to drive people away from organized religion, if for no other reason than an unwillingness to leave their homes.
It will, however, renew a philosophical age (personal religion).
Technology will put everything on an increasingly personal level, including religion.

Edit:
Insistence on rebuilding our cities along the lines of groups of sustainable communities will be the only thing to prevent us from becoming a world of hermits.

[One Degree]

Technology reduces our dependence upon outside sources.
We will have the same needs for religion, but we will no longer desire to fulfill those needs from an outside source.
Personal religion will fulfill the need without us leaving the comfort of our personalized worlds.
Technology just creates an environment where it is likely this will happen.

I see other possibilities developing, but I think this is the most likely.
If organized religion remains a power, it will be through worship on the internet.

[One Degree]

I can understand both views.
Personally, I believe we each have one or two things to contribute to this world and then it is time to make room for new beings and new ideas.

[Ummon]

Things have a way of evolving

[annatar1914]

This isn't an atypical religion vs science thread

This is a thread more towards the learned religious types habiting this board like annatar, Donald and abu_rashid about how technological evolution is going to incorporate itself into religious life, and what specifically is the attitude towards (consumer) technology (Not science) from religious authority; though anyone is welcome to pass comments.

It's important that a distinction be applied between science and the technology that translates into reality as a result of scientific process. I take the long view that we will have technical progress as long as humans are alive (in some form or the other) and am not particularly concerned with the stale science/religion debate.

It's more the opposite view that I find that certain technological progress as a result of scientific inquiry is creating conditions detrimental towards human spirituality, whilst at the same time improving their condition materialistically on a base biological level. If a persons needs, wants or troubles are completely sated as a result of advances in consumer technology, where then in that persons life is there space for any form of spirituality? Said people may even go through religious motions, but in the absence of any form of existential struggle, is spiritual catharsis even possible? Can a Westerner (and eventually, human regardless of location) who lives a life of relative boundless material sustenance (all forms of sensory entertainment,desire and base needs) even achieve any form of spiritual evolution?

One part of me believes religion is a stabilizing force for agrarian and post-agrarian societies, codifying laws and norms to promote social and political stability. The other believes in the possibility of religion (regardless of type) being a force capable and aimed at achieving human spiritual transcendence beyond the point of us being chained, limited and subjected to our hard-wired biological demands and desires.

"The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

So in essence, the struggle is not against science per se, I feel science is merely making sense of what is around us in the most rational way relative to our time-period, but the technology that is developed as a result of this understanding that gives into "physical weakness", and in doing so completely sidelines the spiritual component of humanity.

Considering that modern political thought is heavily influenced with the secularized(yet Christian influenced) idea of "heaven on earth", an endpoint of a material utopia that can replicate the concept of a Christian heaven and translate it into a literal reality( the pseudo-religious driving force behind consumerism - salvation through consumption and material goods), should religious organizations and peoples view with trepidation the concept of a "post-scarcity" society, which is what almost all modern political thought is eventually predicated with achieving.

And given the timeless march of technology, how exactly is religion prepared to deal with the very real problem of humans being perpetually maintained in a stasis of biological desire and fulfilment? is forced asceticism the only way one can achieve mastery over the physical?

Being a particularly irreligious person, I am more concerned with the effect consumer technology is having on my generation (and I hold it in contrast with previous generations) and the quality of human that is produced by such a society (quality being measured not by statistics like lifespan, amount of material goods they possess etc), and how our generation hardly would be able to summon the mental or physical fortitude to achieve what the Greatest generation in WW2 did, let alone go what they went through without breaking down in a heap. Trends like the "herbivore men", or "hikkimori" in Japan (Japanese society gives us a glimpse into the future of sorts, being probably the worlds first postindustrial society) are particularly frightening and disturbing, moreso than any forms of "police state" dystopia

I'm particularly interested in a religious perspective on the prospect of a post scarcity "utopia" and/or advances in consumer technology/technology - does the coming "Golden age" of materialism necessarily correspond with a "Dark Age" of spirituality?

Well, I appreciate what you're saying, and I get it, but my answer (such as it is) is a kind of 'good news/bad news' thing, in my opinion. First of all, what strikes me about this new age that we live in is that despite the illusions of transhumanism and machine immortality, the System as it stands is quite simply unsustainable.... 'peak oil', 'global warming', overpopulation, globalism and the recurring crises of capitalism and multiculturalism themselves, and increasingly deadly world wars whose 'kill ratio' rises exponentially with each conflict. Nuclear war/Weapons of mass destruction War is inevitable. The 'good news' is that without the cushioning of modern technology to render us opaque to each other, we will be forced to deal with each other and our problems with a very direct authenticity, aiding in spiritual development. The 'bad news' is that many of the human race will be dead, and much of their modern works in ruins. I will not see the end of the modern age (1500 AD to 2050 AD, roughly), but i'm certain that I will see the beginning of that end, if we aren't in it already.

Fortunately I can say that also people in this future I posit will find the distinction you and other moderns like myself raise of Cartesian separations of mind/body/soul and a number of other artificialities, rather odd. In a sentence, much will be pre-Copernican in the worldview of the men of the late 21st century.

Your 'Dark Age' of Spirituality means that the 'Golden Age' of Materialism is coming soon to it's end, in short.

[abu_rashid]

how technological evolution is going to incorporate itself into religious life,

For Islam it's always been something that has been quite compatible with the religious life of Muslims. Technological advancement helped Muslims to learn how to better calculate prayer times, know the direction towards Makkah, calculate inheritance divisions, calculate months etc. And today Muslims are continuously integrating newer technological advancements into their religious life. From prayer mats with inbuilt compasses and automatic sensor activated wudhu taps to prayer clocks and mobile phone prayer apps.

and what specifically is the attitude towards (consumer) technology (Not science) from religious authority; though anyone is welcome to pass comments.

As long as it serves an Islamically purpose, then there's no problem with it at all.

It's more the opposite view that I find that certain technological progress as a result of scientific inquiry is creating conditions detrimental towards human spirituality, whilst at the same time improving their condition materialistically on a base biological level. If a persons needs, wants or troubles are completely sated as a result of advances in consumer technology, where then in that persons life is there space for any form of spirituality?

I think religions with a very strong, stable belief system are less likely to be concerned with these kinds of things. Religions that chop and change to suit the times will of course be greatly affected by such changes and people will begin to abandon them when they no longer have a need for them.

Said people may even go through religious motions, but in the absence of any form of existential struggle, is spiritual catharsis even possible? Can a Westerner (and eventually, human regardless of location) who lives a life of relative boundless material sustenance (all forms of sensory entertainment,desire and base needs) even achieve any form of spiritual evolution?

Because they are most in need of it.

One part of me believes religion is a stabilizing force for agrarian and post-agrarian societies, codifying laws and norms to promote social and political stability. The other believes in the possibility of religion (regardless of type) being a force capable and aimed at achieving human spiritual transcendence beyond the point of us being chained, limited and subjected to our hard-wired biological demands and desires.

"The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

It can indeed raise us up from being slaves to our base desires, to becoming masters of our own minds.

I'm particularly interested in a religious perspective on the prospect of a post scarcity "utopia" and/or advances in consumer technology/technology - does the coming "Golden age" of materialism necessarily correspond with a "Dark Age" of spirituality?

I highly doubt this will occur. But even if it does, the basis of Islam is not related to having enough or not. In fact Islam requires us to always deal with resources as if they are scarce, no matter how much we have. Waste is considered to be sinful.

[Atlantis]

@Bridgeburner et al,

Firstly, it would be helpful if you distinguished between religion and spirituality. Organized religion has precious little to do with spirituality. It is about power, about politics, and about ideology and morality used for organizing society. Religion is also about science and technology. Shamans and alchemists are proto-scientists who used a religious system to explore the unknown.

Originally, there was identity of religion and science and technology. Science and technology were specialized fields of knowledge that were conducted within a religious framework. It is only due to secularization that science has been separated from religion in the last few centuries. What happened in reality, however, is that religion was relegated as an outdated historical relic, while science assumed the role of religion. The role of religion as a ruling ideology is today fulfilled by science.

Independently of this, spirituality can be pursued by all humans; however, I believe that spirituality is far harder to achieve by modern wo/men who are engaged in the incessant pursuit of material possessions. And nobody should expect eternal life by science extending average life expectancy. Future generations will grow weaker, both physically and mentally, and life expectancy will fall.

[Ummon]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -klingons/

[Taxtro]

Considering that modern political thought is heavily influenced with the secularized(yet Christian influenced) idea of "heaven on earth", an endpoint of a material utopia that can replicate the concept of a Christian heaven and translate it into a literal reality( the pseudo-religious driving force behind consumerism - salvation through consumption and material goods), should religious organizations and peoples view with trepidation the concept of a "post-scarcity" society, which is what almost all modern political thought is eventually predicated with achieving.

This is really only an issue for the more fundamental or extremist branches of religion. For zealots that put scripture before people.
For a "moderate", like I was, advancements in technology, improvement of our circumstances, are another way to worship, to practice your faith in god as the incarnation of love. Why would you not want to help your fellow humans?

But of course you are right, and it cannot be ignored. Both members of traditional religions and New Age ones engage in romanticism of the past, rather than acknowledging the immense betterment over the ages. And some are more eager for the world to end then for it to become a Utopia. I've seen this yearning for the "End Times" not only in Evangelicals, but also some New age believers.

It's more the opposite view that I find that certain technological progress as a result of scientific inquiry is creating conditions detrimental towards human spirituality, whilst at the same time improving their condition materialistically on a base biological level. If a persons needs, wants or troubles are completely sated as a result of advances in consumer technology, where then in that persons life is there space for any form of spirituality?

I would take the complete opposite stance and say that improvements in living conditions allow for more spirituality!
I think we must differ between spirituality and superstition. You can be the most down to earth skeptic and still feel deeply spiritually moved. The view in the distance, to mountains and the thoughts of the sea beyond fill me with almost unbearable yearning. I've cried multiple times while reading a novel and even while listening to hymns for gods, I don't believe in.
Being rid off constant stress and fear gives people time for their spirituality. Then you can open your mind for a diversity of impressions.