[Hoss Cartwright]

that doesn't work for the mystic Arts. we are talking divinity, not loose economic theory. only a fool can't tell the two apart

[Rei Murasame]

Or is it that you can't see that all these things are overlapping? If you think that the world doesn't need to be changed in any way and that no operations have to be carried out on the minds of people, then you have missed the point entirely. Or your teacher(s) are doing a bad job, one of the two.

[Hoss Cartwright]

that has no bearing on the occult. all that matters in certain circles I assume you covet is power. any and all social institutions can be subverted or harness for said power. equality in the name of a unequal vision is an obvious misdirection. your ultimate freedom Will inevitably mean the subjugation of each other. the arrival of elders ones must lead to a new subjugation. maybe it is for the best that you do not know these things.

[Rei Murasame]

You have a way of sounding very mysterious while actually saying absolutely fuck-all. Why not make a real argument once in a while?

[mikema63]

Oh lets everybody calm down now.

Economics is the foundation of human civilization born from our culture and feeds back into it. The only real way to change anything is to change the economic structure.

[Hoss Cartwright]

that is true if we stick to materialism. throwing gods and voodoo into the mix kind of f***** that up. the dialectic is fundamentally flawed when we consider how Marx and Engel misinterpreted the sequence of events that led to society. Theu also mis understood just how influential certain concepts could be.

[mikema63]

Obviously I disagree about Marxism being wrong, and I am certainly a materialist.

That said it is not necessarily a contradiction of materialism to believe in gods or forms of magic, obviously such things would simply be part of material existence and would be put into the framework of our understanding of the universe.

[Hoss Cartwright]

Isn't marxism utopian, and haven't we found religious megaliths constructed before the time of Agriculture?

back on topic, I was just saying esotericism and equality tend not to mix.

[mikema63]

Isn't marxism utopian

no

haven't we found religious megaliths constructed before the time of Agriculture

so

I was just saying esotericism and equality tend not to mix

Escotericism isn't linked to any particular set of ideas. Something escoteric is just something believed by a small group.

[Hoss Cartwright]

According t Engels, religion was supposed to develop after agriculture.

Occult just means something hidden, but you know what is meant by it

[mikema63]

Occult just means something hidden, but you know what is meant by it

No, I don't.

According t Engels, religion was supposed to develop after agriculture.

Haven't ever heard that one before, do you have a source?

[Potemkin]

According t Engels, religion was supposed to develop after agriculture.

The nature of religion changed after the development of agriculture. One of those changes was that people were more likely to build monumental religious architecture. The development of agriculture cannot have been the start of religion, however, since such a thing cannot simply appear ex nihilo. The invention of agriculture, after all, does not require the existence of religion, but will certainly transform what type of religion people already believe in.

[Hoss Cartwright]

It is buried somewhere deep in the original Marxist tracts.
please discuss this article http://louisproyect.org/2009/06/15/the- ... le-savage/

[Hoss Cartwright]

The nature of religion changed after the development of agriculture. One of those changes was that people were more likely to build monumental religious architecture. The development of agriculture cannot have been the start of religion, however, since such a thing cannot simply appear ex nihilo. The invention of agriculture, after all, does not require the existence of religion, but will certainly transform what type of religion people already believe in.

I thought Gobeki teple and the various monoliths in Europe and South America debunkef this theory?

[Potemkin]

I thought Gobeki teple and the various monoliths in Europe and South America debunkef this theory?

There was nothing in principle to stop Stone Age people from building huge temple complexes, and evidence is now emerging that some of them did indeed do so. The point is that there were vastly more such structures after the development of the agricultural mode of production than there were before it. This is probably due to the less nomadic nature of agricultural societies, and to the changes in their religious beliefs following the development of agriculture (eg, more emphasis on an afterlife and therefore more care given to the burial or disposal of the dead, and greater emphasis given to Earth-based deities confined to a particular location which would often become the site of a temple complex, and so on).

[Hoss Cartwright]

I thought dolmens were more common before agriculture than after agriculture.

[Potemkin]

Then you'd be wrong.

[Hoss Cartwright]

source please.

[Donna]

Isn't marxism utopian, and haven't we found religious megaliths constructed before the time of Agriculture?

back on topic, I was just saying esotericism and equality tend not to mix.

Just to get this out of the way, Marxism - outlining scientific socialism as it did - was distinguished from utopian socialism.

Esotericism has Platonic trappings, but I've never encountered anything definitively anti-egalitarian in any of the nooks of the perennial philosophy. On the contrary, white magicians, mystics and adepts have a tendency to manipulate or influence societies in order to mitigate the natural selfishness of unconscious men. You can even characterize this as an overarching Platonic dialectic where ignorance and egocentricity has original mastery and material primacy, thus one of the major struggles through history - alongside the struggle of classes - is the struggle of Initiates and ignorant men.

It's not that different from the Leninist notion that social change requires the vanguard leadership of intellectuals (professional revolutionaries), or the psychoanalytical Marxism in academia today. Similarly, the overall spiritual growth of humanity relies on the leadership of individuals who have transmuted their intellectual and psychic talents into selfless discourse alongside the arts and sciences.

[Rancid]

Serato, which religion do you subscribe to?