[GandalfTheGrey]

. Let me ask, if you honestly believe these verses mean that modifying your body is therefore never permitted, does that mean you don't cut your nails or hair? which interestingly are both mentioned alongside circumcision as being acts of fitrah.

Being a little misleading Abu, the 5 acts of fitra you reference from the Bukhari ahadith does not include merely 'cutting your hair', but specifically cutting/shaving only armpit and pubic hair, as well as trimming your moustache.

[abu_rashid]

It's not misleading at all, as nowhere did I specify head hair, and regardless, i can simply reword it for you, to avoid your petty objections "Does that mean you don't cut your nails nor trim/shave your underarms, pubic or moustache hair?"

The question still has the exact same meaning and impact, so please stop obfuscating and answer if you are capable.

[GandalfTheGrey]

Abu asks "does that mean you dont cut your nails or hair" and turns out he's referencing a hadith talking specifically about the fitrah of shaving armpit and pubic hair - and he doesnt think he's being at all misleading

Anyway, back to your "explanation", comparing fingernails and hair with the foreskin is obviously weak because one is dead tissue by-product, which is pefectly natural to remove in the same way as faeces should be removed from the body, while the other is a living part of the body.

[abu_rashid]

You're obstinate in your obfuscations aren't you.

Ok let us forget hair altogether and just focus on nails.

Whilst nails are largely made from dead cells, they are an integral part of our anatomy, and we'd be handicapped in many ways without them. Removing them or modifying them is far closer to circumcision than it is to wiping expunged faeces from your body, and I'm actually shocked you'd make such a comparison. Although not surprised that you need to resort to ever flimsier arguments to uphold your untenable position.

I also note that you didn't even bother to address the fact that in fiqh it's preferable to reconcile rather than pit evidences against one another.

[Besoeker]

Can't you just answer the question rather than make personal vacuous remarks?

I did answer your question, that's why I responded in disbelief with "Are you for real?".

Clearly your debating skills are seriously impaired. It wasn't my question that was in question.

[GandalfTheGrey]

You're obstinate in your obfuscations aren't you.

Referencing the ahadith about a specific practice of shaving armpits and pubic hair and using it to make a point about 'cutting your hair' in general is the very definition of obfuscation abu.

I don't know why you're being so defensive here, and your rather hysterical replies have made you completely misunderstand my position. I am not arguing against circumcision - I support it, and practice it with my own children. I am not trying to "prove" the quran forbids it, merely asking how you reconcile the ahadith with the quranic position - you know like you are demanding. And you never actually provided an explanation.

Whilst nails are largely made from dead cells, they are an integral part of our anatomy, and we'd be handicapped in many ways without them. Removing them or modifying them is far closer to circumcision than it is to wiping expunged faeces from your body, and I'm actually shocked you'd make such a comparison. Although not surprised that you need to resort to ever flimsier arguments to uphold your untenable position.

I'm sorry it shocks you, but the truth is both hair and the parts of the nail that we cut are dead bi-products of living tissue that is necessary (and meant) to be removed. And by the way, the part of the nail we cut is a very separate part of the nail that is an "integral part of our anatomy". Like it or not, removing these completely superfluous dead cells bears far more resemblance to disposing fecal matter than it does to cutting off an actual part of living anatomy to make a once-off permanent altercation to the body's natural form. Thats not being obstinate or shocking, thats just simple common sense.

So in summary, I'm not (necessarily) rejecting the ahadith on circumcision, I'm merely asking a genuine question about reconciling it with the Quran. So now you know what I'm arguing, please less strawmen, less confected outrage, and address the issue please

[anasawad]

The position of the Quran is simple.
Anything that does harm is forbidden whether done by well or not, by self or others.
That, by Qiyas, goes to cover everything from smoking, drinking..... To FGM and suicide.

If we want to look at the rule of the Quran, then by the fact that FGM cause harm, then it is forbidden to be done, and if someone forced it on a girl, then he should be punished by the rule of law.
I believe would be a ta'zer punishment, under the same category of Sharia law as for murder since murder is also considered under the form of causing harm to others, and both punished under the same law.

I do not have an accurate knowledge of what would be the punishment, but it would be equal to the level of harm done.

Even in the articles quoted here as attempt to show it is in Islam, it is clearly stated that if it does harm then it is not allowed, and the key word is harm.

[QatzelOk]

The position of the Quran is simple.
Anything that does harm is forbidden whether done by well or not, by self or others.
That, by Qiyas, goes to cover everything from smoking, drinking..... To FGM and suicide.

If we want to look at the rule of the Quran, then by the fact that FGM cause harm, then it is forbidden to be done, and if someone forced it on a girl, then he should be punished by the rule of law.
I believe would be a ta'zer punishment, under the same category of Sharia law as for murder since murder is also considered under the form of causing harm to others, and both punished under the same law.

I do not have an accurate knowledge of what would be the punishment, but it would be equal to the level of harm done.

Even in the articles quoted here as attempt to show it is in Islam, it is clearly stated that if it does harm then it is not allowed, and the key word is harm.

And yet, Sabaticus doesn't really care about what is in the Quran or which social trends are responsible for genital mutilation on certain females. She's just trying to project her own immorality onto one of her victims.

This is something that people who live in mass-murdering Western nations have learned to do.

We bomb entire nations into rubble, and then accuse them of doing all the horrible things that we do.

We also exaggerate the importance of "their" social evils, and casually ignore or dismiss our own (Male circumcision and matriarchal societies - where women diminish male sexual pleasure in order to turn their mates into better financial predators).

[abu_rashid]

Referencing the ahadith about a specific practice of shaving armpits and pubic hair and using it to make a point about 'cutting your hair' in general is the very definition of obfuscation abu.

It makes no difference, all that's relevant is that some part of it is being lopped off because you think it's better without it. Whether it's hair on your head or hair under your arms is completely irrelevant to the example. And as I said, even if we remove the hair example altogether and just talk about nails, my point still stands just as well, it's completely unnecessary. I don't blame you for trying to deviate though Since you've really got nothing of substance to argue, and have even admitted to practicing circumcision yourself.

I don't know why you're being so defensive here, and your rather hysterical replies have made you completely misunderstand my position. I am not arguing against circumcision - I support it, and practice it with my own children. I am not trying to "prove" the quran forbids it, merely asking how you reconcile the ahadith with the quranic position - you know like you are demanding. And you never actually provided an explanation.

The Qur'an provides a general rule, that the body is created in the perfect form, the Sunnah mentions some slight exceptions to that rule that in the case of circumcision, it's allowed. There are countless examples of this in the Islamic texts, where the Qur'an provides the basic rule and the Sunnah provides the elaboration, exceptions etc.

As an example, the Qur'an commands us to fast the month of Ramadan, no exceptions are made for a woman who is breastfeeding or pregnant in the Qur'an itself. Therefore by your defective "Discard anything that appears on the surface to contradict Qur'an" mentality, pregnant women and those breastfeeding must fast. But those of us with 3aql who recognise that the Sunnah supplements the Qur'an not contradicts it, know that the hadith by Ibn Abbass (ra) clarifies this situation, it does not contradict it.

I'm sorry it shocks you, but the truth is both hair and the parts of the nail that we cut are dead bi-products of living tissue that is necessary (and meant) to be removed. And by the way, the part of the nail we cut is a very separate part of the nail that is an "integral part of our anatomy". Like it or not, removing these completely superfluous dead cells bears far more resemblance to disposing fecal matter than it does to cutting off an actual part of living anatomy to make a once-off permanent altercation to the body's natural form. Thats not being obstinate or shocking, thats just simple common sense.

Faeces are excreted from the body naturally. You merely wipe that which becomes caught on the skin during that excretion. Nails and hair are purposely altered, and more importantly are part of your growing organism, not a waste product being expunged from your system.

So in summary, I'm not (necessarily) rejecting the ahadith on circumcision

I know, you're just arguing for argument's sake. And a pretty poor argument at that.

I'm merely asking a genuine question about reconciling it with the Quran. So now you know what I'm arguing, please less strawmen, less confected outrage, and address the issue please

There's nothing genuine about your questions at all.