[Dagoth Ur]

You cannot reject a concept that you do not have.

[Besoeker]

You cannot reject a concept that you do not have.

If that's addressed to me, what concept did you have in mind?

[Dagoth Ur]

Belief in God.

[Besoeker]

Belief in God.

I don't reject the concept. I just don't share the belief.

[Pants-of-dog]

Does a stubborn refusal to make a decision about the existence of God make you an atheist?

[Besoeker]

Does a stubborn refusal to make a decision about the existence of God make you an atheist?

What do you think?

[mikema63]

Whether or not you make a concious decision is irrelevant, you either believe in god or you do not. There is no middle ground superposition of belief in opposite things.

[Besoeker]

Whether or not you make a concious decision is irrelevant, you either believe in god or you do not.

I don't. But I can't express certainty that no such entity exists any more than one who believes that god can express with certaintly that one does.

[mikema63]

Beliefs are not knowledge, you can have a belief while not being certain of it.

[Besoeker]

Beliefs are not knowledge, you can have a belief while not being certain of it.

I agree.
That was my point. There are few things in life of which we can be certain.
That god does or doesn't exist is but one example.

[mikema63]

Certainty, unlike belief, can have levels.

I'm almost entirely certain there is no god.

I'm fairly certain I'm a good person.

I'm not at all certain that Trump can't possibly win the presidency.

The certainty of a belief about god isn't all that important in determining whether or not your an atheist. Nor does that belief require you to hold some host of other beliefs unlike believing in the christian god and the resurrection of jesus and whatnot.

[Besoeker]

Certainty, unlike belief, can have levels.

I respectfully disagree. Certainty is an absolute.
Almost certain and fairly certain are qualifications that make it not absolute.

I know it is often qualified in that way in speech and in writing. But if you say you are almost certain it means that you are not certain.

[mikema63]

That doesn't really make sense. Your essentially saying human beings have no sense of probability. Certainty is just how you express how probable you think something is.

[Besoeker]

That doesn't really make sense. Your essentially saying human beings have no sense of probability. Certainty is just how you express how probable you think something is.

Again, I respectfully disagree.
Probability ranges from 0-1. Or 0%to 100% if you prefer it that way.

For any particular event, a figure of 100% is certainty. The event will take place.
Take, as a simple example tossing coin. It is a certainty* that it will land on either heads or tails. Probability is 1. That's certainty. Not an "almost" certainty. A certainty. An absolute value.

[Albert]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/gretta-vosper-united-church-minister-atheist-1.3506390

http://www.grettavosper.ca/

[Drlee]

Interesting lady albert. She professes to be a Christian minister and atheist at the same time. It sounds like a wonderful exercise. Yet the church is seeking to fire her. And they should.

She is almost certainly not the only minister who has lost her belief in God. The fact that she went public with it is something else. Every time she leads her congregation in prayer she is giving the lie to everyone there. In her church's stated belief is this"

Based on the understanding that the Bible is the ultimate standard for our faith, membership in the church is based on a profession of faith, not on adhering to a particular creed. New members are asked to profess their faith in the triune God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - and to commit themselves to faithful conduct in the church and in the world. Additionally, United Church ministers are required to be in "essential agreement" with the 20 Articles of Faith set out in The Basis of Union.

As members of one body of Christ, we acknowledge our Reformation heritage and the teaching of the creeds of the ancient church, particularly the Apostles' and Nicene creeds.

Of course the Nicene creed begins: "I believe in God the Father Almighty......"

Though there are some, I am sure, who will argue that she can still minister to her flock. The very notion is preposterous. She is not hired to be a psychologist, she is hired to be a person of God. She is welcome to her doubts. All Christians however are called to faith. Faith in God. This is essential.

It is entirely possible to follow the social ministry of Christ and still entertain atheist beliefs. Indeed most atheists in western countries do as our laws were heavily influenced by Christianity. This atheist who believes that we ought to do what Jesus says with regard to how we treat others may choose to fashion him/herself as Christian but they are not in any real sense.

That said. As Christians we are called to follow this commandment. "AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." Not ambiguous.

Yet there is another verse in the Bible in which Jesus speaks of getting into heaven. That verse does not at all require a belief in God. Indeed it specifically omits it.

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

All the nations. (Which obviously to the first century mind and us today includes every religious tradition or, one must conclude none at all)

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’



44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

According to my faith, there are many atheists who will be welcomed into heaven right along with the most devout Christians. But getting into heaven does not come automatically with being a clergywoman and it is not what she is called to be or do. She may be a fine woman and on the way to eternal life. She is not, however, qualified to be a Christian clergywoman.

[Besoeker]

According to my faith, there are many atheists who will be welcomed into heaven right along with the most devout Christians. But getting into heaven does not come automatically with being a clergywoman and it is not what she is called to be or do. She may be a fine woman and on the way to eternal life. She is not, however, qualified to be a Christian clergywoman.

That last part I agree with. She may be good for teaching ethics and morality. And also about religion. But not about faith in a supernatural entity.

[mikema63]

For any particular event, a figure of 100% is certainty. The event will take place.
Take, as a simple example tossing coin. It is a certainty* that it will land on either heads or tails. Probability is 1. That's certainty. Not an "almost" certainty. A certainty. An absolute value.

No.

For a research paper, when you do the statistical analysis, you have to achieve a certain statistical certainty represented as p. For biology you must achieve a statistical certainty that you are not making at type 2 error of p<0.05 (it varies by field).

This is not an absolute certainty, there is still a 5% chance that your data is wrong. It is still consider a degree of certainty. Certainty is not an absolute value it's continuous.

[Besoeker]

No.

For a research paper, when you do the statistical analysis, you have to achieve a certain statistical certainty represented as p.

Probability. Not certainty.

[mikema63]

It's referered to as statistical certainty or statistical significance interchangably, I have literally worked on scientific research papers.

I'm sorry that the way words get there meanings in English differs from what you prefer.