[fuser]

I am intrigued but why Nepal (you are now basically a neighbor btw, 6-7 hours from my place). Nepal is over burdened with refugees (from Bangladesh and Myanmar) these days, so I can understand their reluctance specially given the size of the country and the economy and is currently going through a political turmoil.

If I may say if you are in Nepal, then why didn't you tried India, I believe you have a better chance at a refugee status and integration here than in Nepal, you can easily get a job as Math or English tutor while there are also many Arabian communities inside the country.

[alithinker2]

I chose Nepal because it is cheap here. I knew refugee process would take a long time and so I thought I needed to support myself until I get accepted.
India requires visa from Saudi nationals. Nepal doesn't.

[alithinker2]

Besides, India doesn't sound like a very tolerant place. Are they friendly with a forigner like me or do they discriminate?
Don't forget that I can't socialize with Muslims coz they hate me.

[Istanbuller]

As far as I know, Turkey does not require visa from Saudi nationals.

[alithinker2]

It doesn't. But why do you think the UNHCR in Turkey would help me?
Besides, Turkey is not tolerant of free thinkers. They would prosecute me if I criticize Islam or the government.

[fuser]

Besides, India doesn't sound like a very tolerant place. Are they friendly with a forigner like me or do they discriminate?
Don't forget that I can't socialize with Muslims coz they hate me.

As per tolerance and discrimination goes, there is hardly much difference between India and Nepal and about discrimination, well it depends on place and umm type pf foreigners. Ghettoization is a fact but more or less, I don't think there is much to worry about discrimination. I will say that cities like Kolkata will be absolutely fine for you.

[Rich]

The crisis of Islam is a very subjective concept. Some might say the crisis of Islam began in 1683 or even in 732.

[alithinker2]

Interesting. What happened in 1683, or 732?

[Rich]

Interesting. What happened in 1683, or 732?

They were high water marks of Islamic advance after which Islamic rule was pushed back. 732 in Spain and Southern France. 1683 at Vienna. But it all depends on which way you cut it. I expect for example that for Saudi citizens life is considerably better by many measures than it was a hundred years ago. People of all cultures are prone to mourn the catastrophic loss of some mythical golden age.

[Zamuel]

It is a fucked up situation I am in. Any ideas guys?

I think you should reconsider your self image. From what you have said here, I think pretty candidly, I would not consider you either a refugee of subject to persecution that would make asylum a viable option. You simply hope to exploit those concepts to improve your personal situation. I don't intend any personal attack and I'm not trying to be judgmental, but I think this is probably what the people on the other side of the desk see when you apply for aid. They're looking for people who have suffered loss, been incarcerated, people who are directly threatened. I sympathize with you, but I think the people refusing your applications are just doing their job exactly as intended.

Zam

[KlassWar]

I think you're being too harsh on Ali, Zam.

IF he were from a normal country what you're saying would be very true, a young and educated upper middle class thirld worlder seeking residency in the West. But Ali here is a non-religious secularist from a Shia family, all the things the Saudi regime hates murderously hates pretty much rolled up into one dude. Can't blame him for trying to get away from that hellhole by any means available.

He seems perfectly willing to live in a poorer country as long as it's a normal, non-clerical-fascist regime. Before everyone went hardline nativist in the '90s, being part of a persecuted group used to qualify somebody as directly threatened.

TLDR version: Ali is clearly (petty?)bourgeois and more than a bit naive, but he's correctly getting away from a country where he's not safe.

[Zamuel]

[C]

I think you're being too harsh on Ali, Zam.

Not my intent. As I said, I do sympathize -

IF he were from a normal country what you're saying would be very true, a young and educated upper middle class thirld worlder seeking residency in the West. But Ali here is a non-religious secularist from a Shia family, all the things the Saudi regime hates murderously hates pretty much rolled up into one dude. Can't blame him for trying to get away from that hellhole by any means available.

but I doubt he's going to find any such official sympathy out there.

-For Ali-
The light is strong and the man is weak, And the world walks in between
So rise above on the wings of love, See and let yourself be seen.
Robin Trower - Little Bit Of Sympathy


Zam

[wat0n]

Why don't you work for the American embassy in Saudi Arabia, and after 1-2 years ask for a visa?

You may even get to emigrate normally rather than as an asylum seeker.

[Godstud]

Stay there. Work to make your country better instead of running away from it.

[alithinker2]

They were high water marks of Islamic advance after which Islamic rule was pushed back. 732 in Spain and Southern France. 1683 at Vienna. But it all depends on which way you cut it. I expect for example that for Saudi citizens life is considerably better by many measures than it was a hundred years ago. People of all cultures are prone to mourn the catastrophic loss of some mythical golden age.

I don't see how it is a "crisis" that Muslim's advance stopped during those years. Because honestly, who cares.
The golden age of Islam- around 1000 AD- is called Golden Age not because of the size of the Islamic world, but rather because of quality of life and civilization in that era. Muslims were having a good life back then. And I doubt that their "beliefs" back then were like Muslim people's believes nowadays.
They had economic prosperity, advances in science and technology.. none of this could have happened without respect for "human rights" and human "liberties and freedoms".
We call people of that era "Muslims" because that is where Muslims of today are located geographically. But I doubt there is any similarity between Muslims of today and Muslims of 1000 years ago.
The "Islam" we have today CANNOT bread civilization and freedom. As a "belief system", it is corrupt and discriminatory in nature. This Islam we have today could not have bread the civilization of the Middle East a thousand years ago. That is just not possible.
If I were a scholar, or had a team of scholars and historians up my arsenal, I would have dedicated a lot of effort into uprooting the mysteries of "Islam" of a thousand years ago and would have probably been able to demonstrate "objectively" that Islam today in the 21 century does not have any similarities to the Islam of 1000AD.

If you want to understand what I am talking about, contemplate the following analogy.
Today in America people love to chant concepts such as "democracy", "free market capitalism", ... etc. These are all words/labels that politicians use to advance their message and to make themselves popular. What how do those terms/words translate into reality and real policy is the real question.
I have seen numerous times when those same terms (democracy, free market) are used deviously to promote bad causes. Because let us be honest, whether you are a capitalist or a communist, it doesn't matter. What matters is what you do in the real world and the decisions that you make as a policy maker.
You can be inspired by "capitalism" and the idea of "free market" (as I am for example), you can be inspired by "communism" or "socialism" as concepts (as some of you might be- I don't know enough about communism or socialism to be inspired by them, but I am sure there is something to learn from either of those concepts) but at the end of the day, it is the decisions that you make as a policy maker that matter and affect our lives, not what it is called in the real of "political science".

So to get back to Islam,
I can certainly imagine that terms such as "capitalism" or "communism" can be worshiped some day and become religion some day in the future, where people claim that capitalism was what gave them their civilization in the past.
Islam today is just a bunch of terms and concepts. These very concepts and terms might have spurred some civilization a thousand years ago but now, they are devoid of meaning. They meanings and concepts that Islam promotes today cannot be what the same terms concepts promoted/applied in real life- a thousand years ago. Otherwise, there would not have been an Islamic civilization a 1000 years ago. There would be people killing each other and subjugating each other into repeating a stupid meaningless ritual 5 times a day.

[Zamuel]

Islam today is just a bunch of terms and concepts. These very concepts and terms might have spurred some civilization a thousand years ago but now, they are devoid of meaning. They meanings and concepts that Islam promotes today cannot be what the same terms concepts promoted/applied in real life- a thousand years ago.

Ok ... you have just taken the 1st step towards the Baha'i reformation. Lots of Baha'i in India, might be some around Nepal ... Good people who often have good international connections. The Baha'i are fairly closely affiliated with the UN. I think they would understand you.

Sam

[alithinker2]

I think you should reconsider your self image. From what you have said here, I think pretty candidly, I would not consider you either a refugee of subject to persecution that would make asylum a viable option. You simply hope to exploit those concepts to improve your personal situation. I don't intend any personal attack and I'm not trying to be judgmental, but I think this is probably what the people on the other side of the desk see when you apply for aid. They're looking for people who have suffered loss, been incarcerated, people who are directly threatened. I sympathize with you, but I think the people refusing your applications are just doing their job exactly as intended.
Zam

Dear Zam, thanks for caring about my situation.
It is not that I don't deserve asylum. It is just that there are so many people on earth today who deserve asylum that there is just no space for a lot of us- especially in the Western World. But that doesn't mean that I don't deserve asylum.
And no, I am not seeking asylum in search of a better economic life. There is nothing wrong with seeking a better economic life but you're right, that doesn't qualify a person for asylum. (I was doing good economically actually in Saudi. That is why I have all this money to travel abroad.)
I am seeking asylum because I literally have a hard time surviving. If it doesn't seem like it- because I wasn't directly harassed by the Saudi government- that is because I probably did not fall under their radar just yet. But that doesn't mean I am not at risk. Because if I ever do fall under their radar, then you can be sure that I am as good as dead.

Now if you are wondering how is it that I didn't fall under their radar yet, I am not even sure. But here is my hypothesis: Yes the gov would be very mad at me if they realized what I say or believe in, but they just have so much on their hands so they can't just monitor everything.
Most Saudi people, as far as I can see, don't socialize with non-Arabs. Part of it is because many just don't know any other languages. But some are also just plain racist. They consider you "Westerners" as a "different" race and unworthy of socializing with.
There are also those who consider you to be "infidels" lol. And so not only they wouldn't socialize with you, they would want you to convert to Islam- just as soon as they are done enforcing Islam locally : P.
As such, since almost nobody expressed their opinions outside Arabic forums, the gov probably doesn't even bother monitoring non-Arab forums. (They definitely monitor Arabic forums and social networks.)

So yes, I have just been lucky so far. But that is not to say my luck will last. And that is why I am seeking asylum.

Ok ... you have just taken the 1st step towards the Baha'i reformation. Lots of Baha'i in India, might be some around Nepal ... Good people who often have good international connections. The Baha'i are fairly closely affiliated with the UN. I think they would understand you.
Sam

Wow, the Baha'i faith is fascinating. I didn't know about it before. Sure I don't mind receiving help from them.
My problem though is of governmental level. I need a "government" to acknowledge me as a "citizen". It is great that Baha'i people would welcome me and provide support but I need to be able to reside "legally" somewhere. After I get that, I don't mind associating with Baha's people. Thei faith is fascinating.
I am not a religious man- nor will I ever be- but I respect tolerating and loving faiths.

[alithinker2]

I think you're being too harsh on Ali, Zam.

IF he were from a normal country what you're saying would be very true, a young and educated upper middle class thirld worlder seeking residency in the West. But Ali here is a non-religious secularist from a Shia family, all the things the Saudi regime hates murderously hates pretty much rolled up into one dude. Can't blame him for trying to get away from that hellhole by any means available.

He seems perfectly willing to live in a poorer country as long as it's a normal, non-clerical-fascist regime. Before everyone went hardline nativist in the '90s, being part of a persecuted group used to qualify somebody as directly threatened.

Thanks for your support!

TLDR version: Ali is clearly (petty?)bourgeois and more than a bit naive, but he's correctly getting away from a country where he's not safe.

I don't know what a "bourgeois" mean but I am perfectly willing to learn. If you think there is something wrong with my ideologies and thinking please let me know. You can always teach me something new.
I don't deny that I am influenced by my experience living in America- I am inspired by the ideas such as "free market" and "Libertarian-ism". I was specifically inspired by Ron Paul- don't know if you heard of him. But I can't deny that America fucked up the world really bad lately and I don't approve of everything that America does.
I don't know much about "communism"- I know almost nothing about it- but I am perfectly willing to learn. Maybe you can teach me something.

Lastly, I really don't believe that any such system exists as a "perfect system". I think that if I were a politician I would probably decide each case differently and on an individual basis- rather then wondering if my decisions fit the "capitalistic system" or the "communist system". I think these systems can definitely "inspire"- as theoretical models-, but no system should be taken literally and all the time. Each situation/time is different and so you should always consult your "conscience", and the smart people around you.

[Zamuel]

If it doesn't seem like it- because I wasn't directly harassed by the Saudi government- that is because I probably did not fall under their radar just yet. But that doesn't mean I am not at risk. Because if I ever do fall under their radar, then you can be sure that I am as good as dead.

I can see your concern, and I don't doubt the Wahhabis are watching. But I think they are focused on trouble makers. Unless you do something to attract their attention, they are unlikely to focus on you.

the gov probably doesn't even bother monitoring non-Arab forums. (They definitely monitor Arabic forums and social networks.)

They look for trouble where they expect to find it.

. I need a "government" to acknowledge me as a "citizen".

Most places, It's a LOT easier to accomplish that with a sponsor.

Baha's people. Thei faith is fascinating.

Yes it is ... in many ways it is an Islamic update, which made it anathema to Muslim authority and like you, it's been looking for a home ever since.

I am not a religious man- nor will I ever be- but I respect tolerating and loving faiths.

And Baha'i isn't much of a religion. No cathedrals or mosques, they meet in their homes, or parks. No ceremony, no elaborate priesthood, they discuss world events as they relate to the tenets of their faith. They bond their community and delight in being of service. If every Muslim were a Baha'i? They WOULD rule the world, without a shot fired.

Zam

[Istanbuller]

Stay there. Work to make your country better instead of running away from it.

The problem with him is he is a Shia person in a Sunni majority country. You can be subject to bullying easily in a country like Saudi Arabia.