[annatar1914]

Well, according the commentaries that Biblical scholars like to cite, they often reach the conclusion that even if they substituted any other human woman for Eve and placed her in that environment, that person would also 'inherently' be inclined to follow the fallen angel's advice and eat the apple. And because of that, they conclude that by default, humans are simply inclined to disobey the god which they referred to as Jehovah.

All I'm doing of course is saying that this is a good thing.

Also, with a story like that one, it either means what it says or it doesn't, people can't have it both ways at the same time.

Adam and Eve died a spiritual death, and became liable to physical death, as a result of the choice of their Free Will, which God-not Lucifer-gave them. The freedom to choose a life of disordered passions is not life, but a death. You've got it all backwards, which you will deny by saying I'm the one whose got it backwards, and so it will go until the Final Battle and the World to Come.

[Rei Murasame]

Adam and Eve died a spiritual death, and became liable to physical death, as a result of the choice of their Free Will, which God-not Lucifer-gave them. The freedom to choose a life of disordered passions is not life, but a death. You've got it all backwards, which you will deny by saying I'm the one whose got it backwards, and so it will go until the Final Battle and the World to Come.

Oh, it will be settled once and for all in the final battle. And I think you do have it exactly backwards.

Human beings who didn't have the knowledge to form their own morality, are unable to have moral agency based on the hierarchy of concerns that they have designed, and thus are slaves. That is a fact. Having that agency is life. Being alive without being able to make choices is not life, but rather is just 'being alive'.

As I said before, Eve did not die. She remained physically alive but became mortal, but she gained spiritual life at the moment she grasped the apple. That's what I meant when I said that 'she rejected the chains that were interwoven with flowers, in order that she could seek the real flower'. She rejected the probably-empty promise that she could live forever in the physical world, and chose to set humanity on the path that it is presently on.

But it was not a one time thing. We choose anew at every generation to symbolically re-accept the apple, as the entire society is founded atop Eve's decision (moral agency) and the Legend of Tubal-Cain (development of productive forces).

[annatar1914]

Rei, in reply to you;

Oh, it will be settled once and for all in the final battle. And I think you do have it exactly backwards.

I expected you to say little different. As I say, at least you know the battleground properly and are honest regarding that.

Human beings who didn't have the knowledge to form their own morality, are unable to have moral agency based on the hierarchy of concerns that they have designed, and thus are slaves. That is a fact. Having that agency is life. Being alive without being able to make choices is not life, but rather is just 'being alive'.

Choosing chaos and self-destruction, choices which lead to eternal ruin and death, is not freedom, but slavery. Yet, you lay out properly the choices, the two options of belief, which will ultimately be given humanity prior to the Last Battle. 'Moral Agency', in the context of a designed humanity that is made for eternity and goodness with God, being made in His Image and His Likeness, can lead to either choosing secondary and fleeting goods in an improper manner, or choosing eternal and lasting primary Good, which is forever.

As I said before, Eve did not die. She remained physically alive but became mortal, but she gained spiritual life at the moment she grasped the apple. That's what I meant when I said that 'she rejected the chains that were interwoven with flowers, in order that she could seek the real flower'. She rejected the probably-empty promise that she could live forever in the physical world, and chose to set humanity on the path that it is presently on.

Mortality is enslavement. The overwhelming fear of death is what motivates the great mass of humanity in all their choices; 'eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die'.

But it was not a one time thing. We choose anew at every generation to symbolically re-accept the apple, as the entire society is founded atop Eve's decision (moral agency) and the Legend of Tubal-Cain (development of productive forces).[/quote]

[mikema63]

Christianity is so obsessed with death and dying that the entire point of the whole religion seems to be to suck the life out of life. It's essentially a death cult obsessed with death and a human sacrifice.

Even most christian conceptions of heaven sound absolutely horrific, you spend your entire life a slave to christian doctrine and in the next you get to spend eternity either worshiping at God's feet as his servant or you get tortured forever.

Perhaps it's just me but an afterlife that's basically sitting in church for all eternity and singing hymens is hardly my idea of eternity well spent.

[Rich]

Mortality is enslavement. The overwhelming fear of death is what motivates the great mass of humanity in all their choices; 'eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die'.

Believe me Bro. You'll die a lot quicker if you don't eat and drink.

[Drlee]

Christianity is so obsessed with death and dying that the entire point of the whole religion seems to be to suck the life out of life. It's essentially a death cult obsessed with death and a human sacrifice.

Not my church. The subject hardly ever comes up. But then you could be married in my church too.

Even most christian conceptions of heaven sound absolutely horrific, you spend your entire life a slave to christian doctrine and in the next you get to spend eternity either worshiping at God's feet as his servant or you get tortured forever.

Stories for children. Not sound doctrine. Most of us do not think we know what the afterlife will be like but we definitely would not sign up for that picture.

[mikema63]

Not my church. The subject hardly ever comes up. But then you could be married in my church too.

It's the whole thing though, you get a list or rules and regulations that you have to do, and when you die you get to go to heaven.

Stories for children. Not sound doctrine. Most of us do not think we know what the afterlife will be like but we definitely would not sign up for that picture.

You an Episcopalian? I was raised by a catholic and a Pentecostal.

The Pentecostals especially think they know, though they talk about hell a hell of a lot more.

[annatar1914]

Believe me Bro. You'll die a lot quicker if you don't eat and drink.

But even you would admit a life beyond your belly, and other organs.

Right?

[mikema63]

Since all of our experience and perceptions come from how our sensory organs collect and our brain processes outside information it's actually fairly trivial to argue that all of our experience is in our organs.

[annatar1914]

Since all of our experience and perceptions come from how our sensory organs collect and our brain processes outside information it's actually fairly trivial to argue that all of our experience is in our organs.

You said; 'all'. Rather dogmatic isn't it? I concede your point in a way, but suggest that our perceptions and senses are distorted. Not totally unreliable, but distorted.

[mikema63]

Of course they are, unless you think blue actually exists?

Also, it's not dogmatism to say that since all our senses are interpreted by our brain and our thoughts are in our brain and so far no one has had an provable experience outside of their brain, then it's probably all in your brain.

[annatar1914]

Of course they are, unless you think blue actually exists?

Does 'blue' exist?

Also, it's not dogmatism to say that since all our senses are interpreted by our brain and our thoughts are in our brain and so far no one has had an provable experience outside of their brain, then it's probably all in your brain.

Again, that depends on if you think the brain is just a 'meat computer'. I aver that it is not, that it is much, much more than that. And the Heart too. The problem lies in a disconnect between the mind and the heart.

[mikema63]

Does 'blue' exist?

Blue is our perception of a bit of energy that oscillates at a certain frequency.

Again, that depends on if you think the brain is just a 'meat computer'. I aver that it is not, that it is much, much more than that. And the Heart too. The problem lies in a disconnect between the mind and the heart.

Your heart pumps blood, and if it got disconnected from your brain it would stop doing so. Unless your talking about your emotions and your thoughts. In which case you need to work on the connection between your amygdala and your prefrontal cortex. Meditation is something I've heard suggested as a way to strengthen the connection.

[annatar1914]

Blue is our perception of a bit of energy that oscillates at a certain frequency.

Agreed, as far as that goes. But does that say all that can be said truthfully about 'blue'?

Your heart pumps blood, and if it got disconnected from your brain it would stop doing so. Unless your talking about your emotions and your thoughts.

I'm suggesting more than that, but that'll have to do for now.

In which case you need to work on the connection between your amygdala and your prefrontal cortex. Meditation is something I've heard suggested as a way to strengthen the connection.

Again I'm agreed, but there's more to it than that.

[mikema63]

Agreed, as far as that goes. But does that say all that can be said truthfully about 'blue'?

Actually for a very strict definition of true it's far more than we can actually say about it. You'll have to define what you mean by truth before I can comment on how truthful that is.

I'm suggesting more than that, but that'll have to do for now.

What are you suggesting?

Again I'm agreed, but there's more to it than that.

What?

[annatar1914]

mikema63, you said;

Actually for a very strict definition of true it's far more than we can actually say about it. You'll have to define what you mean by truth before I can comment on how truthful that is.

I can define 'Truth' more by 'Who?' than 'What?', but there is a Mystery there also, and deservedly so. But if you've seen my posts over any length of time you already have a pretty good idea what I think anyway.

What are you suggesting?

I'm not being coy or deliberately obtuse, i'm actually quite literal, and i'll raise further points to elaborate later.

What?

'Meditation' implies a basic understanding as to the goal and purposes of such meditation, and so is not just what you have said.

I'm not being obtuse I say, I'm actually quite tired, and being a Prole, I'm going to bed early so as to get a good night's rest for work tomorrow. So, I have to break for now. Goodnight.

[mikema63]

I can define 'Truth' more by 'Who?' than 'What?', but there is a Mystery there also, and deservedly so. But if you've seen my posts over any length of time you already have a pretty good idea what I think anyway.

Who? You mean Who is true? I suppose you must mean God, but then how do you know he exists at all?

[annatar1914]

Who? You mean Who is true? I suppose you must mean God, but then how do you know he exists at all?

All do know, in their Heart, and in the very things in which we are made in His Image, as Rational beings, finite and distorted as our rationality is. Ultimately though, one goes beyond (but not without!) Reason, and one begins a Relation, one simply sees and knows and hears. It starts with a profound humility, a 'creatureliness', and a radical sense of one's self-contingency in relation to the Absolute.

Small steps, then larger ones when one is ready for the Leap.

[mikema63]

Whelp, this is the point where I don't really have an argument. Largely because you've lost me.

[skinster]

Perhaps it's just me but an afterlife that's basically sitting in church for all eternity and singing hymens is hardly my idea of eternity well spent.