[abu_rashid]

alithinker2, you might think the West will welcome you with open arms just because you're a rafidi murtad, but in reality they don't want you.

[Political Interest]

alithinker2, you might think the West will welcome you with open arms just because you're a rafidi murtad, but in reality they don't want you.

And the same is true of those who convert to Islam. They cannot suddenly just walk into Pakistan or Turkey just because they have become Muslims.

Immigration issues are not a sign that people are "not wanted".

[Zamuel]

alithinker2, you might think the West will welcome you with open arms just because you're a rafidi murtad, but in reality they don't want you.

This is mostly true of "official" policy at present. However, public compassion remains high and many people in the west protest the necessity of current policies. Indeed, many hearts do bleed and many prayers are offered. Reality sucks sometimes.

Zam

[abu_rashid]

Good thing Islam is not tied to Pakistan nor Turkey (both entities created by the enemies of Islam within the last century).

And it's a bit more than just "immigration issues" he'd be facing.

[Political Interest]

Good thing Islam is not tied to Pakistan nor Turkey (both entities created by the enemies of Islam within the last century)

They are Muslim countries.

The fact that they are states which were created due to outside interference says nothing about their cultures or the way they conduct themselves today.

Their immigration policy is not made anywhere but in those countries.

[Zamuel]

Good thing Islam is not tied to Pakistan nor Turkey (both entities created by the enemies of Islam within the last century).

the west has certainly extended a helping hand to Muslim countries that are receptive. They have profited by it and made progress. That hand also holds several tools, one of them is a flyswatter. It's most effective at repulsing barbarian hordes intent on mayhem and slaughter. But flys are relentless and the wrist does get tired sometimes. The ISIS flypaper deployed recently seems to be pretty effective ... But now those psychotic Russians want to squirt on some lighter fluid and set it on fire. This will be a bit inhumane for the flys stuck to it ... But then ... they're only flies.

Zam

[Potemkin]

Good thing Islam is not tied to Pakistan nor Turkey (both entities created by the enemies of Islam within the last century).

Muhammed Ali Jinnah was an enemy of Islam?

[Istanbuller]

And the same is true of those who convert to Islam. They cannot suddenly just walk into Pakistan or Turkey just because they have become Muslims.

False.

Converts are welcome in Turkey. Turkey has abolished visa procedure for nationals from almost all major muslim countries and those from western countries.

Muhammed Ali Jinnah was an enemy of Islam?

I don't know about that person but the founder of Turkey was not okay with Islam. Abu_rashid is right on this.

[Political Interest]

False.

Converts are welcome in Turkey. Turkey has abolished visa procedure for nationals from almost all major muslim countries and those from western countries.

Yes but having a visa does not mean you can live and work somehwere. Getting a work permit is something else. I can go to Turkey for a holiday but not work there.

I don't know about that person but the founder of Turkey was not okay with Islam. Abu_rashid is right on this.

But he did not like the West either.

[abu_rashid]

Muhammed Ali Jinnah was an enemy of Islam?

Oh yes, the British educated "local face" they stamped onto it made it so much more authentic didn't it?

Come on, we're all adults here, enough of the make believe.

[Potemkin]

So you think that Jinnah was a British puppet?

[abu_rashid]

That's irrelevant. The British decided to divide up the country, and the other players just fell into line with that directive. i.e. my statement was correct that Pakistan was a British contrivance. Jinnah was the man who was willing to ultimately accept this.

[fuser]

I sympathize with Abu's position in the sense that Jinnah personally wasn't an Islamist and a closet atheist in his personal life. He (in)famously proclaimed that Pakistan will be a secular country as there is no further need for communal tensions and everyone will be free to chose or not chose any religion but obviously such idealism didn't hold specially after he was dead soon after Pakistan was created.

Although yeah, he or any other major player were not outright British puppet or anything regardless of the fact that British mechanism did played a crucial role in the partition of the country.

His successors (mostly) were thorough Islamists though, you can blame (or praise, I guess) Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq for Islamizisation of the country.

[Political Interest]

That's irrelevant. The British decided to divide up the country, and the other players just fell into line with that directive. i.e. my statement was correct that Pakistan was a British contrivance. Jinnah was the man who was willing to ultimately accept this.

Yes, this is well known but what does that have to do with the current day problems of Pakistan?

What you do is mention an objective fact, such as the fact that Pakistan was a British creation but then seem to blame all of the problems of Pakistan on this fact.

It is very convenient. You can basically attribute all of Pakistan's ills to colonialism.

Anything that is bad is Western, anything that is good is Muslim.

How on earth does Pakistan's current day immigration policy have anything to do with Britain? How do the ills of Pakistani society have anything to do with Britain?

Maybe Pakistan is in a terrible situation because of factors that Britain has nothing to do with?

It is interesting to note that India is also a country with a lot of social problems. I suppose you could say it is also because it is essentially a British creation.

What you do is blame everything on an outside source.

[Istanbuller]

But he did not like the West either.

This has nothing to do with our discussion.

Turkey was founded on basis conflicting with realities, culture and religion. After 92 years, Turkey is still a not real country but artificial one.

Pakistan was successfully re-Islamised, but Turkey has been irrelevant since 1923.

[alithinker2]

Oh whatever.
You guys keep fighting about The West vs Islam, I'd rather just live and be happy.
Call it The West, or call it Islam, but I align myself with freedom, liberty, democracy, and happiness. Isn't that what we all want? Isn't that what we all aspire to achieve?

Muslims hate the West because they feel oppressed by them. That may be true. But just because you were/are oppressed by the West doesn't mean everything Western is bad.
You know, in the Muslim world people like to say: "don't blame Islam for bad people, blame the [bad] Muslims who commit bad acts." Same goes for people in the West. Don't blame "Democracy" and "freedom" for Western oppression. Blame the people/countries who oppressed you. Who said that everything that Western countries do is "democratic"? Many of them don't live up to their own ideology. That doesn't mean the ideology is wrong. That just means you ran into bad people who just claim to love and uphold democracy but in fact do everything they can to destroy it. That doesn't mean democracy and freedom are bad. That just means you ran into bad examples.

p.s. that is why I suggested open borders. If countries didn't have so much restrictions on their borders, then bad people in the West, for example, wouldn't have to stick to their place and corrupt the rest. They could just travel to "bigotland" where they meet like-minded individuals and socialize with bigots like themselves. While the good people can travel from everywhere to "goodland" where they could socialize and interact with like-minded good people. I am just saying, such a system would be much more practical.
In free market lingo: by putting these restrictions on the flow of capital (in this case, human and intellectual capital) you are basically stagnating the market. You are making the whole thing more difficult, and as such, the whole value of the market goes down.

Maybe I am wrong, what do I know. But I am just saying, the current system doesn't make any sense.