Conservatism and the youth - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Freedom
#23489
When you are young, the one thing you know about politics is-dont be a right winger. Its just one of these things i always grew up assuming, whether from TV, peers or Hippie relations, i just always had this assumption the Left Wingism was right. Continueing from this train of thought i began reading/ watching Michael Moore, listening to "Rage Against the Machine" and generally being another Anti American, Anti Big Business, Anti Free Trade, Anti anything that i didnt hear from what i thought was cool sources, i wanted to be a radical, i hippie or something of that nature. I used to yap on about "sweatshops" in Vietnam and the horrors of free trade. Even more scarily i didnt feel sorry after 9/11...at this stage i had Chomsky Fever. I cant quite pin-point exactly what changed my life so completely...i may have been tales of the Fire-Men at the Twin Towers or pictures of recovered dolls...whatever it was it affected me greatly...i then began to question my beliefs...i began researching and reading different things. Then it came to Iraq. Now Iraq was a country i had fairly good knowledge of when i was younger. For a while i got caught up in the "No Blood for Oil" shambles and actually believed it. But one day, in Geography, my teacher went on an Anti American tyraid...i got sorta sick in the stomach...non of the kids questioned him, no one. Some moron Anti War added in little tidbit "Killing the world through Pollution" or "Sanctions"...so then i outta the blue put forward a few alternative thoughts and questioned his views...he couldnt answer most of it...but what he did answer was more of the same "America Bad or Isreal Bad etc" or "Free Palestine" or some other shit.

Anyway thats how i became ultra evil...outta spite for my stupid Geography Teacher(if only ever school had a geography teacher like mine)

So, to get the party started...why do you think that Conservatives have such a bad name with young kids?




It’s geting cooler to be conservative




If you ask the average American Conservative subscriber about the kids today, he will probably put down his cigar and complain, “They’re a bunch of knee-jerk liberals still brainwashed by the communist propaganda that worked so well on their parents. They’re against invading Iraq because ‘all war is bad.’ They’re against Israel because when it comes to light skin versus dark skin, the latter is always right, and they’re pro-immigration for exactly the same reasons.” I’d like to argue, but he’s right.

I should know. I run a $10 million corporation called VICE that has been deep inside the heads of 18-30s for the past 10 years. According to the Cassandra Report (a trend-spotting “cool hunter” that charges corporations tens of thousands of dollars to tell them what’s hip), our magazine is the number one read for women aged 19-24 and for men aged 25-30. That’s better than Maxim, Jane, or even the New Yorker. Since the Cassandra Report was made public, our magazine has branched out into retail (stores in Toronto, Los Angeles, and New York), film (four in production including director Spike Jonze’s next picture), and TV (on Showtime). We are a successful company that has made its money recognizing cool, and the one thing that has been painfully clear to us over the years is that it is not cool to be conservative. In fact, the majority of our readership (white, straight, middle-class, American) is only totally positive about one thing: being white, straight, middle-class, and American is wack—or, at least, it was wack.

Call me a blind optimist, but I see a light at the end of the anti-American tunnel, a new trend of young people tired of being lied to for the sake of the “greater good.” The New York Times dubbed them “Hipublicans.” Demographics expert Michael Adams labels them “Social Hedonists,” and when our magazine did a feature on them we called them “The New Conservatives.” We did the piece because it became impossible to ignore a difference in the reactions to some of our more right-wing reporting. A new group was emerging, and the vitriolic “You dudes are all Nazis” letters were being replaced by ones saying “You dudes are finally telling the truth.”

Five years ago, we did a two-page spread on how Project USA’s Craig Nelson was brave enough to take on America’s seriously damaged immigration policies. (We are immigrants ourselves and were therefore not the least bit afraid of being blackballed as “anti-immigrant.”) The responses were hysterical. Formerly loyal readers called for boycotts. They annoyed our advertisers with silly rhetoric and called us racists. Needless to say, we were shocked. Like Toby Young in How to Lose Friends and Alienate People or Peter Brimelow in Alien Nation, we were new immigrants who couldn’t understand why Americans were so determined to favor PC posturing over simple facts. Immigration is out of hand, and it’s only going to get worse. Where were the young conservatives to come to our defense? Was the dumb community in control of the entire country?

Two years later, we ran an article on an artist who painted women with incredibly large rear ends. Gay men and straight women found the depictions revolting. Straight men loved it. In the article, the writer went so far as to blame the heavy concentration of gays in the magazine world for brainwashing women into thinking men don’t want them to be at least a little bit porky. He talked about how men bought more hair products than women last year and how heavy grooming like hair dying, chest waxing, and even eyebrow plucking have become de rigueur for straight men. He claimed the gay community had “recreated straights in their own image.” Predictably, our readers were outraged. But something was different this time. On our Web site’s message boards, advocates of the Right started to appear. For every three people who called the article homophobic, there was at least one saying, “What about the part where it’s true? Isn’t that worth something?”—a comment that beautifully sums up the difference between liberals (equality first, truth last) and conservatives (truth first, everything else second).

It was as though Bruce-Banner conservatives had been prodded for so long they were starting to get very angry. And you don’t want to see them when they’re angry. The final straw was an article we ran a few months ago called “The Merits of War.” It featured The American Conservative’s executive editor Scott McConnell, Coloring the News author Bill McGowan, and an incredibly drunk skateboarder named Throatie. Scott was against, Bill was pro, and the irreverent skateboarder held our readers’ MTV attention span for five pages of political discourse. The reaction was amazing. Of course there were the typical anti-American brats calling Bill and Scott “stupid white men” and uneducated academics raving about the lack of liberals in the debate, but, more than ever, there were young people responding with favor to a predominantly right-wing discussion. They lashed out at our liberal readers, “What’s with all the peace and love crap? You sound like a bunch of pathetic hippies.”

This wasn’t a group of already established conservative kids making a cameo on our Web site and our magazine’s letters page just to bash liberals. These were a new group of kids sick of how “intellectually lazy” (to quote the Hipublicans) the Left had become. They weren’t necessarily for invading Iraq. They just wanted to discuss the pros and cons in a rational and calm forum, without the liberal hyperbole of their peers. I felt like Dr. Frankenstein—“It’s alive! IT’S ALIVE!”

And it wasn’t just VICE’s readership. Suddenly it had become fashionable to link liberalism with weakness and conservatism with honesty. Underground film iconoclast Vincent Gallo (“Buffalo 66,” “Palookaville,” “Goodfellas”) is now quoting Nixon and Reagan as if they were Wordsworth and Yeats. Fashion photographer Terry Richardson (Gucci, Sisley, Levi’s) is showing up at conservative book launches and publicly trashing Clinton. Even high-school students are getting in on the act, like the southern Californian artist collective called Sofia that made t-shirts and panties with the illegal-immigrant-crossing logo on them.

You wouldn’t have seen anything like this five years ago, but now it seems that the reality of the boomers’ liberalism is slowly starting to affect the livelihood of Generation X. The joy of mass immigration is easy to talk about when you live in the suburbs and benefit from cheap housecleaning, but when you are going to schools that are 50 percent Spanish and watching your education slip through your fingers, you tend to be a little more pragmatic. The same goes for affirmative action. Who was laughing the loudest when Jayson Blair was exposed? The journalism students who were forced to intern for us because they couldn’t get paying jobs in the mainstream press.

These kids, the New Conservatives, don’t have the luxury of idealism that even the youth of the 1980s had. Due to the overwhelming glut of information on the Internet and an unprecedented barrage of marketing, these young people are more aware and more cynical than any generation that came before. Within this group, more and more are embracing conservatism. They are admittedly few—I would estimate that only 12 percent of our readers would dare call themselves conservatives—but that is at least twice what it was five years ago. Finally, the dumb community’s days are numbered. They are slowly but surely being replaced with a new breed of kid that isn’t afraid to embrace conservatism. I’m not saying I had anything to do with this newborn counterculture, but I do have this strange compulsion to start handing out cigars to all my friends.
___________________________________________

Gavin McInnes the co-founder of VICE, a youth culture brand that was founded in Montreal and is now based in New York City.
By T
#23500
The left has a more powerful emotional appeal. What's liberalism about? Peace and love, feeding the sick and helping to poor. Sound good, doesn't it? What about Conservatism? Low taxes, family values, and national security. Sounds a bit venal, no? Little wonder a person who hasn't thought much about their political views would gravitate to the left (not to say that the inverse is necessarily true).
By Freedom
#23505
What's liberalism about


You know the conservative party in Australia is called the "Liberal Party". Liberalism is all about free markets seeing as to free a market from state monopoly is called "Liberalising" the market. I dont see many of the "Liberals" on the street praising the free market, so i think you should reclassify yourself a "Moderate Socialists". I consider myself a Libertarian-with conservative view on Foreign policy and a few other issuess.

Peace and love


Everyone wants peace, "Conservatives" want a real peace, Moderate Socialists want a phony short term peace.

feeding the sick and helping to poor


How do Moderate Socialists achieve this? All statistics show that Free Trade is feeding and helping the poor, yet the average moderate socialist on the street is against Free Trade...

I think people gravitate to the left because of the lies they hear from Michael Moore his kind.
By briansmith
#23512
Michael Moore is considerably less effective to the left than, say, an Ann Coulter or a Rush Limbaugh is to the right. It's an absolute fact that the left has very few talking heads that are truly followed by the masses. Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Coulter, Savage... those types of people actually have groups that hang on their every word and then go spewing it at other people. These folks tend to miss the point that they're ENTERTAINING, not legislating.

I would say that there is more interest in conservatism by the youth thanks to Bush's testosterone-laden response to 9/11. I happen to be a 17 year old white male in southern New Jersey, right outside of Philadelphia, who goes to a fairly poor school with a pretty even distribution of minorities in the area. I can say from personal experience that a lot of people my age are now associating themselves with Bush and "conservatism" because they quite literally have a testosterone overflow. I've heard so many "we should just nuke 'em" statements in response to any problem regarding the Middle East or terrorism. It's ignorance. They aren't actually conservatives though -- BE AWARE OF THIS.

I live a conservative life, for the most part, but yet I am considered to be a liberal because I am open-minded about a lot of things. My peers call me a liberal because I hate war. I call myself a conservative because I know how I think, how I live, and how I would like the world to be. I truly think that the people who associate themselves, on the vast majority, with "conservatism" and George W. Bush nowadays simply have a war-erection and want to show how tough they are. Seriously, it's something I deal with on a day-to-day basis.

Yes, I'm a conservative who happens to also be an environmentalist and a peace activist. Is there something wrong with that? Many of these "New Youth" think so, and they associate me with being a puny liberal wimp as a result of it -- all the while, they are out talking about how abortions should be legal & free, the drinking age should be lowered, and all drugs should be legalized and easily available.

Trust me, the majority of these people are fickle and hypocritical.
By T
#23531
I'm dealing here in the broad brushstrokes of popular perception. The whole discussion is why young people are more liberal, right?

Anyway, I'd argue that youth liberalism is an organic, grass-roots thing, and not the result of some Liberal piper leading out nation's children astray. As TSaler points out, it's hard to find really influential liberal opinion elites. Plus, the vast majority of American kids aren't really politically active; the ones that listen to Michael Moore are by and large the ones that already believe what he has to say.
By Catria
#23656
Youth is idealistic and bold. Liberalism is idealistic and bold, or at least more idealistic and bold than conservatism. Conservatives tend to work off the premise that things have a kind of natural order. Rich and poor, weak and strong...life is survival of the fittest: "it's terrible about the sweat shop labourers...but oh well, that's the way things are." Or: "the poor are poor because it's their own fault...they're not fit enough."

Conservatives aren't convinced that they can change the world or that it even should be changed. That might rock their comfy boat.

What youth and liberalism have in common is a belief that they can help change the world...that it should be changed.

Sometimes when they get older and the idealism is beaten out of people, it's replaced by a smug self-satisfied security or a jaded resignation and even fear. Then people often run under the skirts of conservatism, believing they will be safer there.
By T
#23670
In general I'm inclined to agree. But think about the war in Iraq. We're launching an invasion into a country that has never attacked American soil, in defiance of the will of the international community. We aim to establish a working representative government in a land where there isn't one, in a place that has spent the last decades under brutal dictatorship. If that isn't idealistic and bold, I don't know what is. Perhaps that explains why conservativism is becoming more popular with the kids these days - has the Right become bolder and more idealistic than the Left? Reflecting on it, I can think of several people that would say yes, and would point to Republican ideas like school vouchers and opposition to political correctness. And maybe the left is more cynical too. Are we amidst a reversal of the political order in America? :eek:
By Freedom
#23751
To Catria: When you speak of liberalism i take it you dont be "Classical Liberalism" ie- Free Markets and such do you? Or are you the "Americanised Liberal" ie- big government liberal i was never to sure about this...i'm guessing you when you speak of "Liberalism" you mean "Left Wing"...but Liberalism is a right wing ideolology, not quite conservatism but its right wing in the sense it believes in Free Markets and Individualism as oppose to Socialism and Centralised planning of the economy...if you mean "Left Wingism" just say so...the term Liberalism is often confused.......or maybe you are a Classical Liberal...i dunno please clarify :hmm:

"it's terrible about the sweat shop labourers...but oh well, that's the way things are."


Eh?...those "sweatshops" you speak of are a step up from what most of those people were working in before..also as i've stated time and time again and i've given facts approved the by UN and the IMF...Free Trade is helping the worlds poor...


Iraq. We're launching an invasion into a country that has never attacked American soil


Eh?...Saddy and his boys did try to assasinate Bush Senior you know and where complicite in the first World Trade Centre bombing...they have also attacked Israel, one of Americas allies etc etc
By Catria
#23775
To Catria: When you speak of liberalism i take it you dont be "Classical Liberalism" ie- Free Markets and such do you? Or are you the "Americanised Liberal" ie- big government liberal i was never to sure about this...i'm guessing you when you speak of "Liberalism" you mean "Left Wing"...but Liberalism is a right wing ideolology, not quite conservatism but its right wing in the sense it believes in Free Markets and Individualism as oppose to Socialism and Centralised planning of the economy...if you mean "Left Wingism" just say so...the term Liberalism is often confused.......or maybe you are a Classical Liberal...i dunno please clarify



I've never heard of economic rationalism defined as "classic liberalism" before! Free is a difficult word. I wouldn't define free market economics as liberal in any meaningful sense, because one mans economic freedom can be another's enslavement. That's why I believe in some government controls over capitalism. The free market is profit driven....not people driven. I'm not an "American" anything. I'm an Australian. The term "liberal" began in England and it had nothing much to do with free market economics. I think we've all gone *terminology mad* here...it's tempting to box people into categories but there are so many overlaps and complexities in what people believe. But okay, if you insist...by American standards I'm "left-wing."

Eh?...those "sweatshops" you speak of are a step up from what most of those people were working in before..also as i've stated time and time again and i've given facts approved the by UN and the IMF...Free Trade is helping the worlds poor...


So...because they've never had that many rights or privileges they should be grateful for what they've got? Many big "respectable" corporations have an appalling history of exploitation and this topic deserves a thread of its own.


Eh?...Saddy and his boys did try to assasinate Bush Senior you know and where complicite in the first World Trade Centre bombing...they have also attacked Israel, one of Americas allies etc etc


How were they complicit in WTC bombing...? The coalition couldn't present any credible evidence for this...where's yours?


[b[ If that isn't idealistic and bold, I don't know what is.[/b]

T,
Yep, you're right, the neo-cons are both those things in spades. That did occur to me after I wrote that post, which does kind of defeat my argument[damn!]. But I wonder whether in their attempts to reshape the ME, the neo-cons are really seeking to change anything fundamental about the way the world works or whether they are merely trying to preserve and expand what is already established.

The illusion is one of radical change, but aren't they just reworking the old imperialist idea, only the colonization is ideological rather than physical? That's not changing the way the world works....that's working to schedule.

But having said that, I agree that image-wise the left does seem a bit flaccid and impotent these days in comparison to those testosterone charged neocons, with their rearing hooves and snorting nostrils. They have a *take the bull by the horns* aura...never mind that they're breaking glass all over the china shop.
By Freedom
#23777
tempting to box people into categories but there are so many overlaps and complexities in what people believe


I prefer the good old Left Wing, Right wing classification.

The term "liberal" began in England and it had nothing much to do with free market economics.


I was just reading some FA Hayek before i read your last post and he refers to himself as a "Liberal" but not in the American sense of the word...he was a right winger on economics at least and he describes himself as "Liberal"...i dunno i'm confused...

"
American" anything. I'm an Australian.


Isnt the Australian "Conservative party" called the "Liberal Party" i read that someplace...

So...because they've never had that many rights or privileges they should be grateful for what they've got? Many big "respectable" corporations have an appalling history of exploitation and this topic deserves a thread of its own.


There is a thread on this in the "Economics and Capitalism" section, read my post "In Defense of Globalisation-Nike and Vietnam"...

How were they complicit in WTC bombing...? The coalition couldn't present any credible evidence for this...where's yours?


Didnt i say the First World Trade Center bombing? there was one before you know...also there is evidence of the Baath Party funding Al Qeada and various militant groups around the middle east...they probably didnt organise 9/11 but they certainly gave money to various terrorists networks...

the neo-cons are


... bastardized left wingers crusading as right wingers...they propose a lot of Left Wing domestic policies...they are kinda Nationalistic on foreign policy i guess...kinda like National Socialists(another foul label us right wingers get dumped with...even they they aint right wing)

china


Ah yes another triumph of capitalism over socialism...
By Catria
#23798
Didnt i say the First World Trade centre bombing? there was one before you know...


You did. My apologies....I misread it.
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By MB.
#23822
I know two people my age who are ultra conservative. Don't confuse this with the "let's nuke 'em" attitude, but with actaully being consevative: they feel that the economy comes first, that 'the market' is superior to the state and so on. However, they are friends of mine who have ideals for once (even if I disagree with them). They will defend thier positions to the bitter end, and for that I am understanding. I've had long-albeit, rewarding- debates about the nature of the economy in BC, or the sucsess/failure of the current government federally and provincailly and so on. But, as I've said, we do have something in common- the very fact that we hold ideals.

I'm going to go off topic here for a story I think is too good to ignore. I am absolutley fascinated by modren culture, world wide, and feel that, being both Canadian and American, it is my duty to see two sides of an aurgment before responding (unless in the most blatent casses: ie, gay bashing). Anyway, two friends of mine just blew me away with the story's of why they came to Canada: the first, an Isrealie (sp) came to escape military service.... at age 15. Wow. I can't even imagine having to leave my own country for fear of being enlisted. The second, an Iranian, came to Canada to escape opression within his own country. He told me that at school, his teachers would tell him to hate Americans and all that- but he didn't care, and said that really no one paid much attention to that bluster. At anyrate, such people amaze me, as with my conservative friends, they HAVE ideals. They ask intelligent questions, and they fight to the death in defense of their beliefs.

As Kurtz would say, "give me ten divisions of such men, and our troubles here would quickly be over". It's the truth. Idealism, of anykind, is superior to no ideal at all.

Sorry for the tirade- it's one AM and I'm tired.
By T
#23827
Freedom wrote:Eh?...Saddy and his boys did try to assasinate Bush Senior you know and where complicite in the first World Trade Centre bombing...they have also attacked Israel, one of Americas allies etc etc

I haven't heard about Iraqi complicity in the first WTC attacks. Can you get me a link to the story? Anyway, I'm sure you still agree that the invasion was both idealistic and bold, no?

But I think that the old left-wing/right-wing split in becoming increasingly obsolete. How do you fit Joseph Lieberman or Arnold Schwarzeneger on that scale? What about log cabin republicans and Reagan democrats? it just isn't descriptive enough anyomre.
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By Demosthenes
#23861
Sometimes when they get older and the idealism is beaten out of people, it's replaced by a smug self-satisfied security or a jaded resignation and even fear. Then people often run under the skirts of conservatism, believing they will be safer there.


Oh get over yourself woman...or man, or whatever. Idealism is replaced by realism, which is more practical and solves more problems. A pure idealist is of little use to himself and others if he/she has no perspective.

As for Conservatism being safer...that is just...a really strange thing to say...you seem to be quite the flaming liberal. You seem to have one unyielding view of Conservatism that's not all that accurate for anyone except those of the extreme right.

Maybe you just grow, learn how the world works and accept that idealized, childish notions are not compatible with the real world, and that with some personal effort anyone can succeed at anything they try.

It's quite a refreshing perspective...personal empowerment, I mean.
More specifically personal economic empowerment is refreshing. Quite a more positve and foreward thinking mindset than the tired old liberal dogma strewn about like yesterday's refuse, which tries harder than any force I've ever seen to convince the poor man he is down and can never get back up. How oppressive.

You should Liberate yourself from these heavy weights of oppressive liberal hyperbole and conserve your strength for the explosion of gratitude and pride you will feel once you are free of its shackles... ;) :lol: :evil: :smokin:
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By arcis
#23871
Btw:

"It's quite a refreshing perspective...personal empowerment, I mean. "

I see, the conservative people are learning to deceive the people in a more sophisticated way. It is really a quite refreshing perspective for the big boss to see his personal empowered employees working more and more for less and less money. And the best thing is, the workers can work in full personal empowerment instead of being exploited. Quite progressive. I like that manager lyricism so much.

Young people tend to be liberal because their parents tend to be conservative. If the parents are liberals, the kids are conservative.
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By Demosthenes
#23872
I see, the conservative people are learning to deceive the people in a more sophisticated way. It is really a quite refreshing perspective for the big boss to see his personal empowered employees working more and more for less and less money. And the best thing is, the workers can work in full personal empowerment instead of being exploited. Quite progressive. I like that manager lyricism so much.
I see you have decieved yourslef into believing everything is always someone else's fault and never yours.

"Poor me I work in a factory and I'm trapped..." never mind that there are about a million other jobs out there that are yours for the taking if you'd just get off your ass and do something about it. Don't make excuses for the lazy, take personal responsibility for yourself.

Take your "oh the conservatives are just brainwashing people" crap and sling it elsewhere. Brianwashing is such a childish concept that making such accusations are meaningless in any real debate. The only time I use it persoanally is to prove a point to someone who has already used or implied the term themselves. So Stop watching the same news. Think for yourself, America and conservatives are not the enemy, no matter what your media teaches you. Don't succomb to the brainwashing...You have the power, you can rebuild yourself...stronger, faster, better than you ever were before...*looks around for Lee Majors* :knife:
By Catria
#23933
"Poor me I work in a factory and I'm trapped..." never mind that there are about a million other jobs out there that are yours for the taking if you'd just get off your ass and do something about it. Don't make excuses for the lazy, take personal responsibility for yourself.


Told you, conservatives blame the poor for being poor...

Maybe you just grow, learn how the world works and accept that idealized, childish notions are not compatible with the real world


And as I said...they think the world cant/shouldn't be changed.


As for Conservatism being safer...that is just...a really strange thing to say


What's so strange? Conservatives like the familiar and established...don't you recall what Kalb said? of course that feels safer.


you seem to be quite the flaming liberal


Well considering you appear to be somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan...I'll take that as a compliment.
Last edited by Catria on 27 Aug 2003 01:07, edited 2 times in total.
By Freedom
#23935
Told you, conservatives blame the poor for being poor...


Well a proportion of people are poor because of the choices they made. For example in my year in school(when i started secondary school...i dunno that in grades) there was about 65 people. Now in Ireland we sit two state exams the Junior Cert(15.16) and the Leaving Cert(17/18). It is compulsory to sit the Junior Cert. After the junior cert 3 students ditched school altogether. 3 students were absent more than half of the time and 8 never did any homework and failed the majority of their subjects. Thats almost 5% of my class have given themselves little oppourtunity to amount to much. And this was a relatively small school in an unpopulated area...am i to believe that all the poor people are poor simply because the government forces them to be? Thats pure crap people make stupid mistakes, even after they are warned time and time again not to make that mistake. They didnt work hard enough at school and they are working dead end jobs as a result or are unemployed. Is this the governments fault that parents fail to look after their kids and to motivate them to at least attain a decent standard in school?
By Catria
#23965
So I guess the 32 millions of Americans who live in poverty, the 6.6 million people in gaol, on parole or probation, the 43 million without adequate healthcare and the 2.3 million homeless adults and children...this is just the fault of the individual...there can be nothing amiss with the system? All these people could be successful if they'd just try harder?

And conservatives thinks liberals live in fantasyland....


When speaking of poverty you have to talk in terms of the broad picture. It's meaningless to say "a proportion of poor people make poor choices." They probably do...but so what? Rich people make bad choices too. Does this then exempt the society from any culpibility? Nothing can be done because "they didn't work hard enough at school"? There's no cause and effect? No context? No odds stacked against the blacks, hispanics and children who overrepresent poverty in America?
By Freedom
#23977
Why do you always speak about America, i thought you were Australian...i'm Irish...again why so much talk about America?

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