[Freedom]

You're the one who dragged France and healthcare into it.

I believe you went on a rant about how bad America was to begin with

Well I'll eat my copy of Das Kapital.

good the best thing to be done with that book

[Catria]

I believe you went on a rant about how bad America was to begin with

Only in response to you and Demosthenes "poor bashing". But hey this could go on forever. I'll try to keep on track, I know Demosthenes runs a tight ship. I don't want to be thrown out of the sandpit....you guys are such fun to play with.

good the best thing to be done with that book

Mmmmmm...it was delicious. Very spicy.

[Freedom]

"poor bashing"

I bash em good

I know Demosthenes runs a tight ship

Runs this place like a dictator, evil American

[Gothmog]

How do Moderate Socialists achieve this? All statistics show that Free Trade is feeding and helping the poor, yet the average moderate socialist on the street is against Free Trade...

I think people gravitate to the left because of the lies they hear from Michael Moore his kind.

-Please, show me those statistics.....

[briansmith]

Do they have an official Moderate Socialist Polling Organization...?

[Boondock Saint]

the 43 million without adequate healthcare

What about healthcare in France...10000-15000 people died because the state run health-system advocated by the likes of you wasnt as perfect as you might think...10000 in a few weeks...i read somewhere that if this were true the daily death-rate wouldve been higher than at the height of the Vietnam War!...so how do you explain this?

I love when people blame state run health care for that ...

Would you then agree that a capitalist society is a failure because of the black out that happened in the US?

Would you agree that capitalism is a failure because of the US national deficit?

Would you agree that helicopter gunships are useless since so many have been shot down in service of the nations that use them?

Would you agree that battle tanks are useless since so many have been destroyed on the battlefield?

Would you agree that the US is a failed society becuase it has such a massive homeless population?

Would you agree that US gov't is a failure because of the amount of people that use drugs even though the gov't is fighting a WAR ON DRUGS?

Would you say that the US health system is a failure because people who need procedures cannot afford them will not be treated?

I would say that the deaths in France were due to many different issues, the least of which is a state run health system ... they simply were not prepared for a climate change of such magnitude ... what do you think would happen if the entire state of Texas were hit -70 degree weather and blizzard like conditions with snow accumulations greater then the lake effect snows seen in the regions bordering the great lakes?

[Freedom]

Would you then agree that a capitalist society is a failure because of the black out that happened in the US?

I wouldnt blame a capitalist "society" and i'm not fully aware of the story behind the Blackout and i've heard different suggestions from different people.

Would you agree that capitalism is a failure because of the US national deficit?

The US isnt "capitalist", like almost all countries America is a mixed-market economy. Notice how the national debt has spiralled since America has become less-capitalist than it was before the Despression.

Would you agree that helicopter gunships are useless since so many have been shot down in service of the nations that use them?

Would you agree that battle tanks are useless since so many have been destroyed on the battlefield?

If a certain model of Tank or Aircraft mal-functioned to much, than i'd say it was a failure

Would you agree that US gov't is a failure because of the amount of people that use drugs even though the gov't is fighting a WAR ON DRUGS?

Yes

I would say that the deaths in France were due to many different issues, the least of which is a state run health system ... they simply were not prepared for a climate change of such magnitude ... what do you think would happen if the entire state of Texas were hit -70 degree weather and blizzard like conditions with snow accumulations greater then the lake effect snows seen in the regions bordering the great lakes

The majority of the dead in France were old people. The state-run old folks homes were 80% understaffed, the hospitals were also grossly understaffed, work very short weeks and various other factors caused by the health-system being being at the mercy of over-zealous trade unions.

I also direct you to my other posts were is said i do not disagree with a state-run health system, but since i heard it said that France has the best health-care system in the world yet this third-world esque disaster partly because of a faulty health system, can be nothing but an indictmant that the system was failing. If this were say America and this happened i'm i seriously to expect that the socialists and the leftwingers wouldnt be talking crap of the American health system?

Do they have an official Moderate Socialist Polling Organization...?

I was making the point that Liberalism, is a right-wing ideology, as it is based on free markets and that it has come to represent the opposite in some places.

-Please, show me those statistics.....

Afelon i have a question for you, why do you always put a "-" before your sentences, just wondering ...as for the statistics here is one set:

Living standards have risen dramatically over the last decades. Per capita private consumption growth in developing countries has averaged about 1.4 percent a year between 1980 and 1990 and 2.4 percent between 1990 and 1999. So millions have left behind the yoke of poverty and despair. But population in the developing world has grown rapidly -- from 2.9 billion people in 1970 to 5.1 billion in 1999 -- and many have been born into poverty.

The proportion of the developing world's population living in extreme economic poverty -- defined as living on less than $1 per day (in 1993 dollars, adjusted to account for differences in purchasing power across countries) -- has fallen from 29 percent in 1990 to 23 percent in 1999.

Substantial improvements in social indicators have accompanied growth in average incomes. Infant mortality rates have fallen from 107 per 1,000 live births in 1970 to 59 in 1999. On average, life expectancy has risen by four months each year since 1970 . Growth in food production has substantially outpaced that of population. Governments report rapid progress in primary school enrollment . Adult literacy has also risen, from 53 percent in 1970 to 74 percent in 1998. And gender disparities have narrowed, with the female-male difference in net enrollment rates decreasing from 11 percent in 1980 to 5 percent in 1997. The developing world today is healthier, wealthier, better fed, and better educated

these are from the worldbank(please dont make an argument that this is a biased source as that will get us no were).

Now parts of the world have gotten poorer than they were ten-years ago(as is stated on the worldbank page in this article) but overall standards of living are up.

[Freedom]

Speaking of the American Health system, you can count your blessings that you aint from England:

Britain shamed by NHS death rates

Waiting lists and shortage of doctors blamed for grim mortality figures

Jo Revill, health editor
Sunday September 7, 2003
The Observer

Patients who have major surgery in Britain are four times more likely to die than those in America, according to a major new study.
The comparison of care, which reveals a sevenfold difference in mortality rates in one set of patients, concludes that hospital waiting lists, a shortage of specialists and competition for intensive care beds are to blame.

Fresh evidence of a stark contrast between the fate of patients on either side of the Atlantic will re-open the debate over whether NHS reforms are having any impact on survival rates.

Mounting evidence suggests that patients who are most at risk of complications after an operation are not being seen by specialists, and are not reaching intensive care units in time to save them.

This week health Ministers will present the latest figures showing another yearly rise in the number of intensive care beds for those who are critically ill. But Britain lags far behind America and most European countries in its critical care facilities. An authoritative study to be published later this year will demonstrate that the chances of survival after undergoing a major operation are far greater in an American hospital.

The authors conclude that NHS waiting lists, the lack of specialist-led care and the fact that many patients do not go routinely to intensive care contribute largely to the difference.

A team from University College London (UCL) and a team from Columbia University in New York jointly studied the medical fortunes of more than 1,000 patients at the Mount Sinai Hospital in Manhattan and compared them with nearly 1,100 patients who had undergone the same sort of major surgery at the Queen Alexandra Hospital in Portsmouth.

The results, which surprised even the researchers, showed that 2.5 per cent of the American patients died in hospital after major surgery, compared with just under 10 per cent of British patients. They found that there was a sevenfold difference in mortality rates when a subgroup of patients - the most seriously ill - were compared.

Professor Monty Mythen, head of anaesthesia at UCL who oversees the critical care facilities at Great Ormond Street Hospital, led the British side of the research, which will be published in a peer-reviewed medical journal later this year.

'The main difference seems to be in the quality of post-operative care, and who is likely to care for patients in the US, compared with the UK,' Mythen said.

'In America, in the Manhattan hospital, the care [after surgery] is delivered largely by a consultant surgeon and an anaesthetist. We know from other research that more than one third of those who die after a major operation in Britain are not seen by a similar consultant.'

He also believes that the queue for treatment in the NHS would inevitably mean that British patients were more at risk. 'We would be suspicious that the diseases would be more advanced in the UK, simply because the waiting lists are longer.'

The New York patients had paid through private insurance to go to hospital and were therefore likely to be of a higher social class and healthier, whereas the NHS patients were from all social classes. The researchers attempted to level out social differences by rating each patient according to clinical status.

Each patient was then placed in a mortality-risk category. Those at greatest risk were calculated to have a 36 per cent of dying after surgery, whereas the lowest risk patients had between zero and five per cent chance of dying.

Mythen added: 'We looked at a number of hypotheses, but it does seem to show a difference in the systems of care, rather than a reflection of some other factor. The provision of intensive-care beds is obviously one of the differences. In America, everyone would go into a critical care bed - they go into a highly monitored environment. That doesn't happen routinely in the UK.'

Each year, more than three million operations are carried out on the NHS. Around 350,000 of these are emergencies, which carry a higher risk of complications, but there is no routine triage system in Britain for picking out patients before surgery, to determine who is most at risk.

Previous reports looking at deaths that occur within 28 days of surgery have shown that 36 per cent occurred in patients who went directly into ICU after surgery. But a higher mortality rate - 42 per cent - is seen among patients who had first been sent to a ward, got into difficulties and then had to be transferred to intensive care.

Professor David Bennett, head of intensive care at St George's, after looking at survival rates, said: 'There are substantial number of patients each year who die, who might otherwise have survived had they got the appropriate kind of care after surgery.

'There's a crucial six- to eight-hour period when some people need their cardiac output [the amount of blood the heart pumps out each minute] boosted. Even 80-year-olds undergoing heart surgery are far more likely to survive when they receive that care, so why are we not, as a matter of routine, picking out the people most at risk?'

[Al Khabir]

Back to the article...

It mentions the use of liberal propaganda and lies to "brainwash" the young, and admittedly the likes of Micheal Moore do tell some large lies indeed, but they are nothing compared to the lies spread by many conservative parties. UNfortunately, although most conservatives are genuine right-thinking people, just like the liberals their representatives reflect badly on them. What of the continual anti-communist brainwashing throughout the western world?

[Freedom]

I can only speak of personal experience. I have never been brainwashed into Anti Communist leaning, this i developed myself. The only things we learn about communism are: Berlin Wall=Bad, First guys in Space, Cuban Missle Crisis and the collapse of communism. To be honest the only brainwashing i got in my education was anti-nazism...maybe this varies from country to country. But i never heard anything in curriculam text books on what you pinkoes would consider brainwashing.

[Boondock Saint]

Yea I gotta say in my education communism wasnt really mentioned all that much.

What we learned was that the SOviet Union was one of the allies in the war against Germany, an adversary in the cold war due to differing ideologies, and that it fell apart.

Most of what we studied was pre-modern european hisory and US history. I dont recall ever hearing that communism was bad in school, actually the teachers who mentioned it made it sound very nice. In truth I remember being about 12 years old and being convinced that communism was the way to go ...

So ... the idea that I was indoctrinated by the capitalists to dispise communism seems rather silly ... since all I heard on tv was how the US screwed over everyone and how all communists wanted was everyone to be equal ...

I live in the US, I am 25 years of age.

Oh, there were some video games that put Nato forces against Soviet forces ... but ... there was no politics involved ... just weapons ...

And of course some movies about the SOviets vs. the US ...

[Al Khabir]

And I wonder who it is who wins each time! But if it isnt the media who do it, why is everybody I meet either rabidly anti communist or completely ignorant about communism?

[Boondock Saint]

And I wonder who it is who wins each time! But if it isnt the media who do it, why is everybody I meet either rabidly anti communist or completely ignorant about communism?

Rabidly anti-communist? Who are you speaking of? Yanks? Brits? The French? Japanese? I can't speak for someone else, especially when I dont know who that someone else is ...

Ignorant about communism? Odds are they were not indocrinated ... I suppose one could also ask why many are so ignorant in general ... certainly you dont think a lack of indocrination into communism in a nation like the US is akin to being anti-communist?

I can only speak for myself ... but I hear many people say many things about the propaganda machine in the US ... and for whatever reason I have examples of the exact opposit of most of the claims made ...

[Al Khabir]

There is a difference between informed and being indoctrinated...
Anti communism is often (although not in your case) completely uninformed, featuring every single peice of western cold war propaganda.

But then I suppose you are right. Why are people so generally eager to be ignorant? No matter what the intelligence, everyone has the has the capacity to better themselves, why do so few people take the oppurtunity living within the culture that we do?

[Boondock Saint]

There is a difference between informed and being indoctrinated...
Anti communism is often (although not in your case) completely uninformed, featuring every single peice of western cold war propaganda.

I agree, reading what I wrote I wish I had worded it differently. Oh well. I mean the indocrinated vs. informed ...

Popular movies/tv that I have seen about communism.

- Red Dawn. The Soviets invade the US. Some kids become a guerilla group and give the Soviet occupants a pain. Eventually the kids die because of Soviet forces just being too much but the Soviets are shown as people who had lost their way. IN other words, initially their cause was honorable, being rebels and revolutionaries but now they are the invader ... they are the American. Many people just simply see US propaganda in this movie, but read more into it and it is hardly complimentary to the US.

- Hunt for the Red October and K-17 the Widowmaker ... ok, that second one was newer ... both movies sucked, it was more a sub movie then anything else.

- The Simpsons ... Lenin is preserved in the form of a massive combat robot and what does he say? 'Must crush capitalism' ... I laugh so hard every time I see it ...

Where am I going with this? I dont know ... I am babbling on and on ...

[Demosthenes]

Guys, do we really have to have this debate here? I'm not saying its inappropriate per se, but for goodness sakes there are half a millon threads on this board debating the relative merits of Communism and the "it's evil/it's not evil debate."

This thread was originally about why Conservative thought isn't popular amongst youth. Can we steer it back that way please?

[Al Khabir]

Yes, let this debate fade into insignificance...

|Why is conservatism unpopular with the youth- democracy as a whole is boring. Ever try to read the Fisheries Act of 1861? The left wing generally claims to be about making real changes. Shame most people dn't go far left enough...

It is quite sad though- conservatism contains many useful and sensible strategies, but youth is so often about rebellion- when parents are conservative, their children generally are not.

Oh yes, and that Lenin scene was great. I have to get me a fighting Lenin-bot.

[Cruxus]

It’s geting cooler to be conservative

If you ask the average American Conservative subscriber about the kids today, he will probably put down his cigar and complain, “They’re a bunch of knee-jerk liberals still brainwashed by the communist propaganda that worked so well on their parents. They’re against invading Iraq because ‘all war is bad.’ They’re against Israel because when it comes to light skin versus dark skin, the latter is always right, and they’re pro-immigration for exactly the same reasons.” I’d like to argue, but he’s right.

Conservatives, in general, have a distorted perspective about the political beliefs of contemporary youth, as do liberals. The sad truth is that most young people are politically apathetic and the opinions they do have are typically not well thought out and are usually inherited from their family, school, religious institution, etc; if contemporary American youth were surveyed about their political views, the results would probably show a mix of vague support for conflicting ideals.

I am one of the exceptional youth who has always been interested in what is happening in the world and why. Politically, however, I remained a moderate until I had begun questioning my beliefs and opinions on almost everything. This resulted in a shift to a little left of center. The aftermath of September 11, President Bush's handling of domestic and foreign affairs, however, has radicalized me much further left (albeit, not to communism or anarchism).

Returning to my point, I believe that the United States should not have restrictive immigration laws because I take the perspective of the immigrants: I realize that many Mexicans lack economic opportunities in their own country, that Saudi citizens are ruled by an oppressive, exploitative, government, etc. In regards to Israel and Palestine, I prefer to remain neutral; but I, of course, must question many Israeli defense policies that seem designed to backfire. Likewise, although I will empathize with the conditions Palestinians must live under, I do not sympathize with the line of thinking that destroying the perceived bringers of these conditions through violent means will improve anything.

I should know. I run a $10 million corporation called VICE that has been deep inside the heads of 18-30s for the past 10 years. According to the Cassandra Report (a trend-spotting “cool hunter” that charges corporations tens of thousands of dollars to tell them what’s hip), our magazine is the number one read for women aged 19-24 and for men aged 25-30. That’s better than Maxim, Jane, or even the New Yorker. Since the Cassandra Report was made public, our magazine has branched out into retail (stores in Toronto, Los Angeles, and New York), film (four in production including director Spike Jonze’s next picture), and TV (on Showtime). We are a successful company that has made its money recognizing cool, and the one thing that has been painfully clear to us over the years is that it is not cool to be conservative. In fact, the majority of our readership (white, straight, middle-class, American) is only totally positive about one thing: being white, straight, middle-class, and American is wack—or, at least, it was wack.

Call me a blind optimist, but I see a light at the end of the anti-American tunnel, a new trend of young people tired of being lied to for the sake of the “greater good”....We did the piece because it became impossible to ignore a difference in the reactions to some of our more right-wing reporting. A new group was emerging...“You dudes [the conservatives] are finally telling the truth.”

Most people go with the flow, and many young people are adopting the prevailing mood as their own. I have seen the ignorant "Let's nuke 'em!" reactions, but the media have created a trend towards more conservative viewspoints that many young people are adopting. Indeed, it is suddenly cool to say the pseudo-populist, "Screw France and the UN! What have they done for us lately anyway?" It is unfortunate, but liberalism has had trouble offering any radical new ideas recently, and so it has gone on the defensive. Within the Democratic Party, a more centrist neo-liberalism rules the day (e.g., President William Clinton, Al Gore, General Wesley Clark, Senator Joseph Lieberman). Too few Americans have heard the very good arguments against the Bush administration's foreign policy because they are too quick to label it unpatriotic leftist rhetoric; and this opposition to war on its own is not innovative enough anyway.

Americans need to see how genuine liberalism will minimize the likelihood of terrorism through more peaceful means. Instead, the Republican Party and its supporters have whipped the American public up into a continuous war hysteria based on a disembodied fear ("Bowling for Columbine" provides very good arguments for this statement). It is just as written in Orwell's 1984: "War is peace," because a continuous state of war abroad will keep the public at home in check--thus, in peace with an exploitative government. I very much supported the invasion of Afghanistan to remove the Taliban and dismember Al-Qaeda, but I did not see the same necessity in Iraq; I soon came to see other possible motives for these wars that were aimed at the economic advantage of a few in the United States.

Although I would like to argue the views expressed in the rest of the article, it appears to seep into the self-congratulatory, tautological rhetoric that is usual in uncritical political articles.

[Demosthenes]

Well I haven't unfortunately been able to post as often as I had been but after that last little tirade I must make time...

Conservatives, in general, have a distorted perspective about the political beliefs of contemporary youth, as do liberals. The sad truth is that most young people are politically apathetic and the opinions they do have are typically not well thought out and are usually inherited from their family, school, religious institution, etc; if contemporary American youth were surveyed about their political views, the results would probably show a mix of vague support for conflicting ideals.

Nonsense, I fully understand and remember what it was like to be a teenager and high school student...It may have been a while back but not so long ago that I'm that out of touch.

if contemporary American youth were surveyed about their political views, the results would probably show a mix of vague support for conflicting ideals.

I have found that the vast mojority of people who don't know what they are are Liberal. Most of the time, if you're conservative you know it.

I am one of the exceptional youth

Nice, this should make reading the rest of your post interesting, knowing I'm getting to read something from an "exceptional youth" You ever hear of modesty?

I remained a moderate until I had begun questioning my beliefs and opinions on almost everything. This resulted in a shift to a little left of centre. The aftermath of September 11, President Bush's handling of domestic and foreign affairs, however, has radicalized me much further left

Well I'm sorry to hear that you're falling victom to the anti-Bush rhetoric out there. It's a real shame that an exceptional youth, such as yourself could get caught up in all the hype against Bush. Ah it figures...

I take the perspective of the immigrants: I realize that many Mexicans lack economic opportunities in their own country, that Saudi citizens are ruled by an oppressive, exploitative, government, etc.

Ok, in Lichtenstein all they make are postage stamps. This is supposed to make it ok to come to this country? For an exceptional youth you have an exceptionally naive viewpoint on immigration. I'm not against legal immigration in any way, However ILLEGAL immigration is another thing entirely. JUST SAY NO! to illegal immigrants...They displace our culture, don't pay income taxes, and most of the money they make goes right out of the country...deport them all, let GOD sort em out! Compassion or no, there are as many Americans who deserve your compassion as anyone else, why not start at home?

In regards to Israel and Palestine, I prefer to remain neutral

So you're for the war in Afghanistan but comfortably numb in reguards to the terrorists Israel faces everyday. This seems inconsistant.

I have seen the ignorant "Let's nuke 'em!" reactions, but the media have created a trend towards more conservative viewspoints

uh...right, if the media is so conservative, why is Bush critisized daily, why is the term "quagmire" even being used this early in the Iraq campaign, and why are you suddenly converted to far left Liberalism? No, no don't raise your hand I'll answer my own question. IT"S NOT CONSERVATIVE!! That's why...sheesh...

Too few Americans have heard the very good arguments against the Bush administration's foreign policy because they are too quick to label it unpatriotic leftist rhetoric; and this opposition to war on its own is not innovative enough anyway

Are you kiddin me??? what the hell planet do you come from? Mars? Here on planet Earth the people get an almost constant stream of "Why the Bush administration is evil", "Why the texas oilmen want war", and "why did the president lie to the american people?" Don't give me any of this "people are swept up in patriotism bullshit" That lasted for about 6 months.

Now the liberals, such as those whom you identify yourself with have gone back to typical business as usual politics, using partisanship and cultivating divisions in race, sex, and class to try to worm their way back to relevance, despite the fact that we are at war.

Americans need to see how genuine liberalism will minimize the likelihood of terrorism through more peaceful means.

Bwa ha ha ha ha!!! How funny, I guess you're going to what? Offer tea and crumpets to these terrorists and their sponsering nations and beg them to forgive our evil little country for even existing, and would they please whip us as we leave so that we'll always carry a mark of shame? I can only guess what, EXACTLY you're implying here...

("Bowling for Columbine" provides very good arguments for this statement). It is just as written in Orwell's 1984: "War is peace," because a continuous state of war abroad will keep the public at home in check--thus, in peace with an exploitative government.

Ok two things Mr. rambler...First if you mention a Michael Moore work at any time during your tirade, you loose all respect and credibility for serious discussion. If you want to toss around rhetoric and hyperbole (oh wait, that's what you're doing...another exceptional youth brainwashed by the liberal media apparatus) Second, I love the way Liberals think they have a monopoly on "higher thinking", your citing of Orwell's work here only reminds me how some people can be so intelligent and yet possess no "street smarts" whatsoever. Do you really think we haven't or don't know about 1984? I mean really, come on...Look past the nose on your face...You're creating smoke where there is no fire. This has nothing do do with some sinister conspiracy to occupy our little pea brains while some super-secret goverment/private group of high rollers bankroll their wilddest dreams...and if you're so convinced of this lemme see some real proof, not just the tired old Cheeny worked for Haliburton mumbo jumbo...

but I did not see the same necessity in Iraq;

Well thanks goodness your not in a position to set public policy. And before I hear that I've just bought into Bush's stamentes like a good little clone, let me point out to you that I've followed this Iraq drama through 3 presidents now, (Bush sr. Clinton, Bush jr.) and you know what? The Liberals didn't have nearly the trouble making the same accusations against Hussein, that they claim to have now...Political expediance on the part of Libs? Yes! Oportunism from the Democratic Party? Absolutely! Hoping to create, then capitalize on inner termoil resulting from the President's decesion to go to war in Iraq? 100% yes!

I hate it when the left pretends to have "higher motives" when clearly they simply hope to manipulate public opinion in a vain hope of returning to power...

Although I would like to argue the views expressed in the rest of the article, it appears to seep into the self-congratulatory, tautological rhetoric that is usual in uncritical political articles.

Kinda like your own self-serving, self effacing, post...how ironic you find the article self centered...

[Al Khabir]

I basically agree with that one Demosthenes (ecept for the "exeptional" bit where I presume he means he is the exception, rather than that he is amazing. It was pretty cruel). Totally in agreement with teh illegal immigrant policy- each of our countries has enough problems to sort out internally- still, I do not balme them for attempting to reach the first world.

One thing I can't stand though among the right wing- why do you always seem to talk about the terrorism Israel endures while ignoring the State Terrorism that Israel carries out against the Palestinians?