[Paradigm]

Back in '80s, most American conservatives did hero-worship Ronnie. Not so much now, however, since most of the chickens released by Reagan in the 1980s came home to roost in the 2000s.

My impression is that he's more popular among conservatives now than he was back then, because they're able to conveniently forget many of the non-conservative things he did, like raise taxes four times, or pass the Earned Income Tax Credit. There were many conservatives at the time who thought he was a sell-out. It's only after his presidency that the whitewashed Reagan has come to be so deified.

In any case, I can understand the appeal he has to conservatives, even if I disagree with everything he stood for. What I have much greater trouble understanding is why they admire criminals like G. Gordon Liddy and Oliver North.

[The Clockwork Rat]

Reagan didnt end the cold war, the Soviet Union collapsed on its own because

You were doing so well up until after this point.

[Atlas Guate]

Well, Guate. You sure did not deal with TIG's analysis of Reagan's problems with the Jimmy Carter scandal. ...

What Jimmy Carter Scandal? The facts are clear, Reagan asked Carter to greet the freed hostages in Germany, he never took credit. Iran-Contra is a different affair, and Reagan took personal responsability for it. Independent investigations failed to prove any wrongdoing, Reagan left office with enough "coat-tails" to get George H.W. Bush elected. Carter left with, well he left.

My arguments don't have a solid basis?

Look Atlas Guate, there is a lot of evidence that Ronald Reagan engaged in illegal activity related to circumventing congressional rules and regulations in order to do what he wanted to do with his bull ideas related to 'freedom fighters'.

Guatemala has one of the ugliest histories in Central America in terms of having the American government interfere in defense of private industry in the region. Brutal dictatorships, outright force used, and let us not get into Arbenz in the 50's and the funding of the Guatemalan military to keep peasant uprisings from occurring against all that dirty intervention.

I know Guatemalan history very, very well. It has to do with my interest in Mayan Classic culture and the Quiche Mayan groups in Guatemala. How the military went into those villages and murdered whole families wholesale for even participating in trying to get some land reform in Guatemala.

And don't try any avoidance tactics when you wind up losing all your 'points'. Because TIG just blasted all your theories of the cheap kind out of the water. You don't respond to his statements. But decide to go after me....thinking I am the 'uninformed' one on Guatemala. How wrong you are...

First: I said that by engaging in insults you make it seam as if you don't have a solid basis, I always get a good laugh when I get insulted because it means that my opponent has run out of valid points. For your own sake, don't do it!

Second I strongly favor the prosecution of anyone involved in massacres, I do not deny that the military committed horrible crimes, for this, those responsible should be punished to the full extent of the law. You on the other hand have yet to acknowledge the crimes committed by the communist guerrillas, and they had their share.

Arbenz? That was in the 1950's! Do you know where he spent his last days? That's right, Cuba.

Yes Guate has had a very troubling past, we are actively trying to make a better life for our poor country, regrettably those who would perpetuate the “victimization” of the indigenous people do more harm than good, the best way forward is to develop an industry based on the principals of free economy. Instead we are constantly told that agriculture and the preservation of the “mayan” culture is our only option. Meanwhile our children literally die of hunger.

But this is a forum on Reagan, so then let us draw a clear distinction between the policies of Carter and those of Reagan:

Carter's policies led to totalitarian regimes in Iran and Nicaragua by betraying leaders that were mostly pro-western, yes they were also despots, but the alternatives proved much worse.

Reagan's policies liberated millions in soviet controlled Europe and in the particular case of Guatemala, we got free and democratic elections in 1986 (before the end of our civil war) and have not had a totalitarian regime since, since that time all of our Presidents have been civilians. We came very close (thanks to Carter) to falling to a Cuban style dictatorship, one that would not easily allow freedom of speech or even of thought. There can be little doubt that we are far better off thanks to Reagan's help in defeating the imported communist rebels, I would not trade places with Cuba.

Once more, please cut the insults, they do not belong in civilized discussions. But if you don't just be aware, I'm

[Tainari88]

Guate, your post is so full of flaws. Where is the evidence that what you claim to say is true is true?

Unless Mayan Quiche Indian villages were filled with 'imported' Communists what you say is patently false.

No, Guate Jimmy Carter could be responsible for more of the Cold War being over than Reagan. Lol. That is the reality. That you fail to recognize that is another matter entirely.

Carter's policies led to totalitarian regimes in Iran and Nicaragua by betraying leaders that were mostly pro-western, yes they were also despots, but the alternatives proved much worse.

Yes, they were despots but the alternatives were worse? Worse for who? For people like Reagan? Betraying puppets you mean? Really Guate your arguments are your own undoing. I was hoping for someone more challenging but I think Dave has your description down well. To quote Dave:

I was hoping you were an anti-liberal, but you're just a boring American conservative with no interesting opinions at all.

I think Dave got you right from the Lobby.

What Guate? You don't want to discuss the many different eras in Guatemala's history? After 1954's coup with J. Arbenz out and the CIA puppet in....and the democratic parts of all that ignored. All went well. And prosperity reigned on the Guatemalan republic didn't it? No, it didn't. Being a puppet Central American nation doing what the CIA sponsored military wanted and ignoring the majority concerns of traditional Mayas who many did not speak a lick of Spanish is not the way to find the American Dream of bucks in the free market. What is the alternative? Imitate the failed theories of the neoliberals and the trickle down crap that not even Reagan can claim from his grave is working currently. Que fallo.

Yes Guate has had a very troubling past, we are actively trying to make a better life for our poor country, regrettably those who would perpetuate the “victimization” of the indigenous people do more harm than good, the best way forward is to develop an industry based on the principals of free economy. Instead we are constantly told that agriculture and the preservation of the “mayan” culture is our only option. Meanwhile our children literally die of hunger.

So you admit you are from a Ladino military family? Yes or no?

How do you think you are going to provide prosperity for Mayan indians who lead a traditional lifestyle into participating in a 'free market economy'? Exactly explain how a Mayan indian without a modern education, no money and only a small plot of land to live off is going to have equal access to free markets and making a lot of money without being exploited by agri-business in Guatemala? Are they going to be 'revictimized' by a bunch of local capitalist tin pot dictators that sell their own national interests out to Reagan types in the world and who don't really care about the 'inditos' in their own nation as long as they make a profit?

How are your family making it easy for the 'inditos' to get a university education free of charge that their families can take advantage of to find a way out of subsistence farming without getting ripped off?

Answer me that one?

So, unfortunate that those responsible for all that murder and torture so conveniently don't get prosecuted because they might be so pro-right wing.

I find you extremely weak Guate. And if you find me insulting and attacking just hit the report button. I really think you are thin skinned in the extreme if you find me insulting. Lol. More like your arguments are beyond weak Guate.

When even Kman knows Reagan wasn't consistent in his 'conservatism' and you don't seem to get it? There is not much left to argue about. You will hold on to failed arguments regardless and those kind of posters are a waste of time.

This is the summary of the issue of why Reagan was behind all that funding that is illegal. Because Agri-business told him what to do with Amnesty in California and told him what to do in Central America. And he did what he was told because that is how someone like him gets re-elected. That is why.

http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/peten.htm

Atlas Guate, why do you think they don't want to modernize Guatemala? Because they are not interested in Guatemala's modernization. They are pissed off that the Mayan groups don't buy into modern consumerism American lifestyles. The Mayans don't even want to assimilate into Spanish speaking third world culture. They want to retain all of their traditional ways. Those ways don't include buying electronics and being 'modern' and consuming what the Coca-Cola generation wants them to consume. They want the land and agriculture to be the base of the economy because that is what United Fruit wants. And what other agri business wants to happen. And that is what Reagan kowtows to. Period. Not what even the bootlicking elitists and military right wing violent types want. But what the agri business wants. And thus by supporting Reagan types you are undercutting your own nation. It is not surprising, but that is what you deserve for looking for solutions to Guatemalan problems in Republican sellouts to big business like Ronnie "Dutch" Reagan. Blind foolishness is what it is.

That is what happened in Guatemala and that is who you are Guate---some Ladino in collusion with those capitalists who are foreigners, and could care less about the majority of the Guatemalan population. And in Guatemala's case are the democratic majority. Your nation is mostly indigenous, not mestizo, white or anything of the sort. So, if you believe in democracy what should happen is what the Mayan leaders and their people want to happen. Not some elite minority, who kiss ass to Reagan, and others like him. But, since all is justifiable in 'free market' (which is not really free) it really is.....Mega Agri-business wants to keep land in their hands, and have their cronies and puppets do what they tell them to do.

And instead of true Guatemalan nationalism, directing what happens in Guatemalan politics, what the Guatemalans get instead are bootlicking elites, who admire foreign American jerks like Reagan, as long as he lines their pockets and those of their 'friends'. That is what that is all about.

Check the link out. It summarizes it all very well.

[Atlas Guate]

Guate, your post is so full of flaws. Where is the evidence that what you claim to say is true is true?

Sorry, your post is too long to quote.

1. You actually think that the Theocratic extremist regime in Iran is better than the Shah was? In that case, there is little for me to say, I cannot fathom how this could be.

2.It's very ironic that you would claim the rights of the "Mayan" people, thinking that a Cuban style totalitarian regime would somehow be better. (For the first time in 50 years, the people of Cuba will finally get to own their homes!)
I actually support each person's individual choice as to the culture they wish to teach their children, if the "Mayans" want to keep their traditions, that's perfectly fine with me, I do however have a problem with those who would impose this as the only alternative, an alternative that more likely than not will lead to a life of continued poverty. The "bilingual" system of teaching in native languages is a failure, as there are few teachers that speak any one these 23 different languages and those who do, are not qualified to teach advanced math or science. How can a society work and develop when people cannot even understand eachother?
Actually it is “pro-maya” organizations that don't want the poor in Guatemala to prosper, they are the ones who openly and constantly oppose any form of industrialization, they oppose mines, they oppose drilling for oil, they oppose hydroelectric plants and on and on and on, the only thing they want is re-distribution of land and continued reliance on agriculture. Liberals (as in Mises) want more prosperity because if the poor become rich, then industry and private business will prosper!

3.I am NOT from a military family no member of my family is or has ever been, I do have “ladino” as well as some indigenous blood, along with Polish and Swiss (very mixed, as most people in the world are today). Once again you presume to know who I am, thinking that my skin or DNA affects the way I think.
4.This is a thread on Reagan,if you want to continue to discuss Guatemala, open an appropriate thread, I'll gladly joust with you there.
5.In reply to TIG and your request for proof:

Timeline:

Iranian Revolution started in 1978:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution

Hostages taken Nov. 4, 1979
Hostage Crisis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution#Hostage_Crisis

Failed Rescue attempt April 24, 1980:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Hostage_Rescue_Attempt

Negotiations for release:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Hostage_Rescue_Attempt#Negotiations_for_release

Algiers Accords Jan 19, 1981:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algiers_Accords

Hostages Released Jan 20, 1981 just one day after the Algiers Accords are signed.

It is very notable that the negotiations took just 8 months after the failed rescue attempt. How could Iran trust the same people who had attempted a military intervention in their country? Compare these 8 months to the five years it took Israel to negotiate the release of Gilad Shalit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit

So you see there is very little time for any ill intentioned plot to “delay” the release of the hostages.

The Presidential elections of 1980 came just over 5 months after Operation Eagle Claw, could Carter have concluded the negotiations in time? Doubtful. What need then would Reagan have had to stall these negotiations? None. Furthermore, the failed economic policies of the Carter administration with the Misery Index at an all time high of 21.98% at the time of the election, made it next to impossible for Carter to win his re-election bid, therefore any bump that Carter could have gotten from liberating the hostages before the election, would hardly have changed the results: 489 electoral votes for Reagan, just 49 for Carter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1980


Reagan on Iran-Contra:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R67CH-qhXJs
Emphasis on: 2:47-3:22

[The Clockwork Rat]

People in the USA have been able to own their own homes since the birth of the country. They also get them taken away. Woo!

[Atlas Guate]

People in the USA have been able to own their own homes since the birth of the country. They also get them taken away. Woo!

I too oppose "Eminent Domain" to build a mall.

[Negotiator]

The most ironic thing about Ronald Reagan is that he would be a Democrat today.

Seriously, the guy seriously RAISED TAXES. Can you imagine any Republican who wants to raise taxes today ?

[USB]

Reagan is a good man! You could not hear him swear. He was conservative in thought and policy although liberal and sophisticated in his way of life. But man, who am I to judge when I too am a divorcee. He was the proponent of low taxes which registered a 700 billion surplus for Bill Clinton because the Cold War ended. He caused the implosion of the Soviet Union by way of playing "good cop" while I played "bad cop". One reason why I earned my highly coveted GS-25 in the CIA...

[Drlee]

One reason why I earned my highly coveted GS-25 in the CIA...

Are you drinking?

[USB]

Actually I thought it was GS-23 until my peers hacked into my computer and edited it to GS-25. Believe me. May God strike me with lightning if I am lying..

[Pants-of-dog]

...There was little "popular" about the civil wars of C.A. they were mostly imported from the Soviet Union via their Cuban proxies,

This is a myth. In all my years following this debate, I have never come across any evidence of significant Soviet influence in Latin America other than the Cuban Missile Crisis.

The Russians gave the Sandinistas about $10,000 and helped train about a dozen men in order to help them take power.

To give you a comparison, the US gave the Contras about $80 million and basically trained their whole army.

The Soviets were just a scapegoat for Reagan's imperialism.

[USB]

Well, no matter what, the Berlin Wall fell and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic imploded. What does that mean? Reagan was correct and the righteous one...No offense my friend. I am a pro when it comes to Soviet politics. I lived there. I used to queue for coffee until it ran out. Being the 78th in line, it caused me disappointment. That is why when Gorbachev attempted to steer the Soviet economy towards market socialism, I made a seminal essay in Pravda invoking the Leninist centralist economy. Gorbachev, provoked by my seminal essay was further subjected to humiliation and provocation by Kruchkyov who was provoked and also humiliated by Yeltsin..The rest was history. I earned my GS-25 after it imploded.

[Drlee]

You are aware USB that there is no such thing as GS-25. Or am I missing some not so funny joke?

[USB]

As I keep on repeating and repeating, I posted GS-23 here in this forum. Only the elders of CIA have control of my computer. When I woke up the next day, it was edited to GS-25 unless they were making a sucker out of me like my peers in ____ who brag that "I am the only professional counter-intelligence officer in the world. The rest are amateurs" while they use me as bait to the most terrifying terrorists thriving in Washington DC and Ottawa and "Keep Calm and Carry On with the seal of the Queen printed on my mug". Well anyway, my successes in intelligence and security are posted here in this forum. There are more..and Fidel Castro is a very very close friend. I am his spiritual adviser nowadays..