[Muslimanka]

An interesting glimpse of the past. This is a map of the area that appears in the photographs from that era. At the time, Bosnia and Herzegovina was a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and had been for long enough for the Austro-Hungarians to truly establish genuine rule. Meanwhile, the Sandzak of Novi Pazar (previously and again a part of Serbia), which had the other most significant population of Slavic Muslims, was part of what was left of the Ottoman Empire. Although our borders met, travel between the two was very difficult. It's some of the most difficult terrain in the region. Many Muslims still fled over this land bridge to escape Christian rule - but the vast majority of the population found no legitimate reason to do so and remained. As for what was going on in other religious communities at the time, I'm sure our Orthodox Christian and Catholic members can share some information:



And now, the pictures:

Cetinje, Montenegro







Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina











Mostar, Bosnia and Herzegovina









Dubrovnik, Croatia





Rovinj, Croatia



Pula, Croatia

[Cookie Monster]

Nice pictures. Is there any other information or commentary about the pictures.

[Zagadka]

I love the mix of architecture etc.

[Aekos]

While the pictures of Cettigne are cool, there's one thing that annoys me...

...are you actually capable of posting about something else besides the Balkans?

[Nets]

Some of those photos are lovely.

[Philby]

Sigged!



They're all very nice Muslimanka.

[Cookie Monster]

I also like Prokudin-Gorskii´s colour pictures of the Russian Empire. Very interesting.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/

[eloweeth]

These are good pictures.
Was there a Turkish presence over there? The ones in the second picture doen't really look like Slavic Muslims.
Edit: Yes, there were in Novi Pazar.

[Muslimanka]

The second picture is taken in an Orthodox Christian area, Eloweeth - one that, I believe, was never conquered by the Turks? Is that correct? All of us, of all religious backgrounds, can be very pale or very dark. But, in this particular example, I think it's just the exposure of the photograph. It's probably taken on a very hot summer day so the men would be tan and red-faced. The facial features to me look very common - only the man in the middle with the lightest clothing looks foreign to me, and even then, only slightly. The man second from right looks very average. I could show you 20 men who look just like him walking the streets today.

But, I really am quite bad at telling apart men's folk costumes. Women I can usually guess very easily and accurately what place they come from and what religious group they belong to (except the 10,000 slightly different variations of the Roman Catholic costume here. I can't put each one to each town - unless it's really obvious, like the Sutjeska black folk costumes with henna-painted hands). These men could be traveling from anywhere also.

In general - there wasn't all that strong of a Turkish presence and what did exist has long been assimilated (the most typical story would be a prominent Turk sent here for some prestigious position, marries a local woman, has lots of noble children - and, within a couple of generations, you wouldn't know his descendants apart from anyone else by look). Most population movements went in the other direction, toward Turkey - Muslim refugees, prominent Muslim women of marrying age, Christian children to be raised as Muslims (and Muslim children too - while the Christians, obviously, hated this policy, we wanted it because they always gave prominent positions to these children as adults. We had a revolt to earn the right to have our children stolen too, lol... oy, weird world), etc.

Philby: Beautiful! Very creative. And you actually got the color of those roof tiles exactly right. Mostly red, hint of orange... impressive!

[Ter]

I used to deal in old postcards from around 1895 - 1920.

What gives the views the extraordinary dimension is the absence of cars on the roads, even in the towns.
People on the roads and streets come out to pose for the picture.
The other fascinating thing is that we realise that all the people in the pictures are dead.

Ter

[Philby]

I've been there Muslimanka, I've been there...

I've been in Screbenica too....years ago....

[eloweeth]

The second picture is taken in an Orthodox Christian area, Eloweeth - one that, I believe, was never conquered by the Turks? Is that correct?

I don't know. All I realized was Novi Pazar is Yeni Pazar, so there should be Turks.
I guess you are right. Exposure of the photogragh makes them look a bit different. But notice it. Ottoman spirit is alive in them. I can see it from the way they pose
Edit: Nooo, it says Montenegro, I missed it.

[Aekos]

The second picture is taken in an Orthodox Christian area, Eloweeth - one that, I believe, was never conquered by the Turks? Is that correct?

Hell yeah it's correct, Muhammadan feet never set foot in Serbian Sparta (Cetinje) and escaped

[eloweeth]

Can they be your relatives Aekos?

[Aekos]

Quite possibly, but distantly related.

[Muslimanka]

A little then/now:

[Zagadka]

Nice, thanks Muslimanka.

[Muslimanka]

Ter: It is fascinating - I posted a little then/now because I like seeing the changes. It always surprises me in so many ways. Take the first two pictures I posted in then/now.

The mosque is exactly the same, even its gate. A few of the shops on the right, completely uncelebrated buildings - no one would care if they were torn down and replaced with something else - actually existed in 1892!? And then, the most celebrated building on that street = which is the one with the big, curved window series near the top of the hill in the now photo - didn't even exist in 1892, Haha. That building is the symbol of this neighborhood - the one in all the photos, all the postcards. And it's not even as old as some of those little shops?

Then there are some I didn't post that amaze me. Sarajevo went a long time without having its river properly banked. Buildings were built out over the river on stilt logs and the downtown flooded all the time. Compared then/now in these areas is especially interesting to me. If you look at Sarajevo's bridges today you'll notice some of them are crooked. That's because the river was banked very narrowly, on the south end of many bridges is buried underground today. Take this one for example:



But here's one then/now from that series:

[Stipe]

I love the mix of architecture etc.

Depends on what you mean by mix. The only place in the photos where there is a mixture of architectures is the one from Sarajevo. You get a mixture of Ottoman and Central European styles there because of the Austro-Hungarian occupation following on the Ottoman period. The pictures from Croatia are all pretty much in solid Venetian style. Basically, the architecture reflects the dominant regional cultural influences and is strongly connected to what states controlled what and for how long.

[Muslimanka]

Stipe is right - we can say there is an incredible mix of architecture in a relatively small region here. The changes just from Dubrovnik to Sarajevo - a distance of hours in a car - are incredible. But this is only true of the region as a whole. Within the region, most communities have one overwhelmingly dominant form of architecture. There are exceptions, of course. If you go to Pula, you'll see a building or two that would look more appropriate in Vienna than Venice - but that's uncommon.

Sarajevo is an exception - it has Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian architecture. But they rarely mix - with a few exceptions, mainly buildings built in 1911, that are a mix of both styles. For the most part, it's two very distinct styles. We just happen to have both because we were ruled by both and grew tremendously during the rule of both. For the Ottomans, we were their most important city in the far west of the Empire. For the Austro-Hungarians, we were their America, their colony. They spent a fortune on us, trying to mold us in their image, create a good ally, etc. But respectfully, of course. They built around what already existed, they didn't destroy it. But the styles are separate. They even meet at a line that winds through the city, like a brick wall. One building Ottoman, the next Austro-Hungarian. There's a famous street corner where this change is very obvious - tourists come to take pictures.